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Something about "not an angel", "not a choir boy", "bad guy", and "something something something don't know the full story" (like it somehow excuses all that poo poo).
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May 12, 2015 18:50
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pathetic little tramp posted:By the way, why is it considered common practice, in the United States of America, that a police officer who is not a doctor can be allowed to inject sedatives into someone? The guy had an enlarged heart so it was about the equivalent of injecting him with hemlock. Also, the only report claiming he was given sedatives is a comment on an unverified CNN iReport. Nothing in the local media coverage mentions it. Many law enforcement officers are trained in emergency medicine, more often in rural areas where they are likely to be the first responders on scene. There are various levels of certification, but many have training equivalent to an EMT in terms of trauma medicine and lifesaving, except with strict limitations on what drugs they are allowed to administer or assist with. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 19:41 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 19:16
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Jarmak posted:Very interesting to see NRA talking points getting unironically used in D&D It may surprise you to learn that the NRA supports the police, because as a mouth piece for the major arms manufacturers, police are second only to the military as far as sales is concerned.
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May 12, 2015 19:20
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Agrajag posted:Something about "not an angel", "not a choir boy", "bad guy", and "something something something don't know the full story"
And so: We need to wait for the investigation to conclude. We don't know the whole story. It's a dangerous job. He was reaching for something. It wouldn't have happened if he just... They didn't do anything illegal. It was necessary. It was just a few bad apples. Not all of them are bad. Why do you hate cops? Life is simpler when you follow the rules! 
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May 12, 2015 19:22
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Spatial posted:
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May 12, 2015 19:31
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:You can kill someone with a GI Joe action figure's miniature plastic rifle, at sufficiently close range. If this isn't a gun stuff that fires 22 short and subsonic 22LR rounds aren't guns either.
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May 12, 2015 19:40
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Dead Reckoning posted:No, which is why the people administering medical care to Bornstein were nurses working under contract. You'd know that if you had actually spent any time reading about the trial. Expert witnesses stated that they provided a reasonable standard of care, and the "common knowledge" standard for medical malpractice the plaintiffs relied on in their civil suit was an incredible reach, since it would require the judge to accept that a layman can make accurate judgements about what constitutes reasonable care in a custodial setting. Okay then fire the nurses, it doesn't take a genius to know you don't administer powerful sedatives without knowing medical history or are you actually arguing that it is safe and sensible medical procedure to administer potentially lethal sedatives to someone without knowing any of their medical history? I mean, you realise those nurses are acting in a law enforcement setting, right? The fact that they're nurses doesn't absolve them of the fact that they did something really loving dumb. Also, any "nurse" or "medical professional" who stands around while a man is beaten that brutally in front of them needs to turn their licence the gently caress in. vvvvYou're intentionally obtuse and no one falls for it, sorry. pathetic little tramp fucked around with this message at 19:44 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 19:41
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Powercrazy posted:It may surprise you to learn that the NRA supports the police, because as a mouth piece for the major arms manufacturers, police are second only to the military as far as sales is concerned. What in the gently caress does this have to do with people parroting the stupid "what about rock control!!!11" style bullshit because they don't want to admit something literally designed to kill things isn't a toy.
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May 12, 2015 19:43
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There are literal guns, albeit lovely guns intended to shoot raccoons and the like at very short range without killing your hearing, that are less powerful than that thing!
hobbesmaster fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 19:45
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hobbesmaster posted:There are literal guns, albeit lovely guns intended to shoot raccoons and the like at very short range without killing your healing, that are less powerful than that thing!
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May 12, 2015 19:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:It helps when the first people to criticize are in fact uninformed and reactionary, and get basic facts about the case and the law wrong. 
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May 12, 2015 19:49
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twodot posted:This doesn't look productive, I don't think the actual danger level of the item matters. The police are claiming they thought someone was pointing a rifle at them, that may or may not be a reasonable belief, but the actual danger level is totally irrelevant to the perceived danger level. Non-functional rifles are basically not at all dangerous, but will have a high perceived danger level. Fair enough, I was mostly pointing it out to highlight the insanity of calling someone unarmed and clearly no threat because he was carrying a .22 air rifle that not only looks exactly like a .22 powder rifle but is actually a hunting weapon in its own right.
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May 12, 2015 20:09
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IMO, if you point any kind of gun-looking object at a cop you are asking for it. Anyone should know that that is a dumb idea.
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May 12, 2015 20:10
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pathetic little tramp posted:Okay then fire the nurses, it doesn't take a genius to know you don't administer powerful sedatives without knowing medical history or are you actually arguing that it is safe and sensible medical procedure to administer potentially lethal sedatives to someone without knowing any of their medical history? Since it once again falls to me to actually do the reading, here's the reference to the use of drugs: quote:At 6:06 p.m., Petruzziello, after consulting with CCS attending physician Dr. Kabeeruddin Hashmi, gave Bornstein 2mg of the anti-anxiety drug Ativan injected into his right shoulder. The entire time, Bornstein was restrained with handcuffs and shackles while in a wheelchair at the order of corrections officers, according to CCS records. That's ok though, no reason to let all those inconvenient facts get in the way of what you feel in your gut. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:12
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Jarmak posted:What in the gently caress does this have to do with people parroting the stupid "what about rock control!!!11" style bullshit because they don't want to admit something literally designed to kill things isn't a toy. Sorry, the thread got too meta-ironic. -Troika- posted:IMO, if you point any kind of gun-looking object at a cop you are asking for it. Anyone should know that that is a dumb idea. It should be a felony to point a gun-looking object at anyone you aren't intending to shoot cop or not tbqh.
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May 12, 2015 20:13
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Powercrazy posted:It should be a felony to point a gun-looking object at anyone you aren't intending to shoot cop or not tbqh. It's already assault in many jurisdictions.
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May 12, 2015 20:17
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-Troika- posted:IMO, if you point any kind of gun-looking object at a cop you are asking for it. Anyone should know that that is a dumb idea. So the obvious conclusion is that the person was really dumb and deserved to be killed? We can also assume even an idiot isn't that stuid so a) the guy didn't know it was the police or b) no item was pointed at an officer Are those less reasonable than your assumption?
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May 12, 2015 20:18
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Dead Reckoning posted:Since it once again falls to me to actually do the reading, here's the reference to the use of drugs: Bad guess. I do, and I know that is not the standard of care. Neither is beating a man within an inch of his life. Nor do I know of any medical presentation where the indicated remedy is stripping a man naked while he's covered in bruises, bloody from a 20 minute severe beating, injecting him with potentially lethal sedatives, and strapping him to a chair to leave him alone for 4 minutes before someone shows up to check on him. Watch it for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_eUIhWxcw8 If you're honestly the sort of person who thinks "Well the jury agreed with the defendant so those are definitely the facts and juries never make mistakes" I've got a reserve deputy position I can sell you. pathetic little tramp fucked around with this message at 20:22 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:19
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's already assault in many jurisdictions. Right. I'm also not going to get upset about the cops shooting someone pointing a "gun" at them. The problem is, the police as a whole are unreliable witnesses and I don't believe them when they tell me the 12 year-old black kid pointed his gun at them. Nor do I believe them when a suspect moved "menacingly" at them, or even that a suspect was "acting suspicious, or aggressively."
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May 12, 2015 20:20
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pathetic little tramp posted:Bad guess. I do, and I know that is not the standard of care. pathetic little tramp posted:If you're honestly the sort of person who thinks "Well the jury agreed with the defendant so those are definitely the facts and juries never make mistakes" I've got a reserve deputy position I can sell you. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 20:28 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:24
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The main lessons to be learned from the Death In Custody Reporting Act (DICRA) is that if it costs money to implement, local institutions won't pay out of pocket; if there are funds available but only under certain conditions, only some institutions will take advantage of those available funds; and if the government can find escape clauses for implementing this legislation, they absolutely will do so rather than alienate state and local law enforcement organizations. Those things seem obvious to the jaded, but the extent to which they hold true is pretty disgusting. Take the first iteration of the DICRA, which passed in 2000 and ultimately expired in 2006. That bill inserted a clause into the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 specifying what information should be included in reporting qualifying deaths. It left the particulars of how the data should be submitted and organized up to the Attorney General's discretion. The enforcement mechanism for the DICRA of 2000 was that the section of the VCCLEA into which it was inserted controls who is eligible for VOI/TIS funding. The major problem: the VOI/TIS program no longer received funding after 2001 and no VOI/TIS grants were handed out after that year. In short, the enforcement mechanism for the legislation went offline only a year into its tenure. To give you an idea of how truly problematic that is, consider the fact that the program as established by the AG's office did not start to collect data on deaths in the process of arrest until 2003, fully two years after the enforcement mechanism ceased to exist. That same problem exists in a different form in the newly passed DICRA of 2013 (law as of December 2014 and not yet being implemented because of its grace period). The new law's enforcement mechanism is to tie a percentage of JAG block grants to participation. However, the AG has full discretion when it comes to penalizing the states, and the maximum the AG can sanction states is 10% of allocated JAG funds. That would still be a lot of money if the AG decided to genuinely enforce the law, but based on the track record of the Death in Custody Reporting Program that was set up in the wake of the first DICRA, there is little hope the AG's office will take a stand on the issue. There's a bit more about JAG funding and the particulars of the bill here on this thing I made. I am working on creating a comprehensive accounting of the citizen groups who are filling the gaps the government has left, and analyzing the data that the BJS collected during the initial DICRA. The government figures are pretty shoddy though--as in, BJS admits that at best the DCRP managed to capture 50% of cases. 16 of the 41 states that used active case identification strategies (proactively gathering data rather than relying on submission by other parties like LEOs) simply used open-source searches to find cases; or, put another way, 39% of reporting states who were actively gathering this information simply did web searches for it and didn't bother to look into coroner's reports or law enforcement records. If that continues to be the norm, there's not much point in paying for SRCs, who receive funding to gather and submit this data to federal authorities.
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May 12, 2015 20:28
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pathetic little tramp posted:Bad guess. I do, and I know that is not the standard of care. Neither is beating a man within an inch of his life. Nor do I know of any medical procedure where the indicated remedy is stripping a man naked while he's covered in bruises, bloody from a 20 minute severe beating, injecting him with potentially lethal sedatives, and strapping him to a chair to leave him alone for 4 minutes before someone shows up to check on him. You apparently don't, since the reason the suit was dismissed was the lawyers couldn't find a single expert witness willing to testify to that. Also it appears he died of a heart attack because his heart was "massively damaged" from steroid use. edit: drat, beaten
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May 12, 2015 20:28
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's too bad you haven't disseminated this knowledge to the wider medical community, because Amit Bornstein's family could really have used an expert witness who would testify to that earlier this year. You honestly think not being able to get an expert witness (who cost money) to testify against a police department is indicative of the truth instead of being indicative of the legal system? Jesus but you're blind. Did you even watch the loving video? Of course not, because you replied in about 5 minutes and the video is a 30 minute brutal, senseless, beating of a man who was not even violent, just yelling. If you watch it, you might just have to form an opinion, but since that opinion won't jibe with your boot-licking view of the world, you'll refuse. There are literally people in this thread arguing he died from a heart attack from steroid abuse. It just so happened that his steroid-related death came right after he was beaten brutally for 20 minutes, was forcefully restrained to a chair, and injected with powerful sedatives. What a coincidence! You guys would have been Mussolini's favourites. edited to add: But the judge threw it out! And judges are always beyond reproach! Especially in New Jersey! Long known as the least corrupt state in the union! pathetic little tramp fucked around with this message at 20:35 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:30
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pathetic little tramp posted:injecting him with potentially lethal sedatives, We are talking about 2mg of lorazepam. Thats like the starting dose for sleeplessness.
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May 12, 2015 20:35
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hobbesmaster posted:We are talking about 2mg of lorazepam. Thats like the starting dose for sleeplessness. Yes but is it indicated for use when the patient has just received a brutal beating for 20 minutes? Beating can equal strain on the heart. Strain on the heart means contraindication for sedatives. That's not even med school classes, that's entry level EMT training. Heart damage = do not slow the heart. This is not the face of a man you give sedatives to: 
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May 12, 2015 20:38
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pathetic little tramp posted:You honestly think not being able to get an expert witness (who cost money) to testify against a police department is indicative of the truth instead of being indicative of the legal system? Jesus but you're blind. You realize you're the only one alleging he died from the sedatives, the family's attorney was alleging that he died of asphyxia from being restrained and the autopsy ruled it was a heart attack, both sides admitted his heart was "massively damaged" from an undiagnosed condition which is amazingly consistent with steroid abuse.
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May 12, 2015 20:43
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Jarmak posted:You realize you're the only one alleging he died from the sedatives, the family's attorney was alleging that he died of asphyxia from being restrained and the autopsy ruled it was a heart attack, both sides admitted his heart was "massively damaged" from an diagnosed condition which is amazing consistent with steroid abuse. Where did I allege he died from sedatives alone? Holy poo poo why are you this intentionally obtuse? I alleged he died from: quote:he was beaten brutally for 20 minutes, was forcefully restrained to a chair, and injected with powerful sedatives Do you... do you not understand the sarcasm from the context those words were in? Like, I'm pretty sure the 20 minute brutal beating is what I'm saying is the primary motivator for his death. Injecting a man who was just beaten within an inch of his life with sedatives is just the final nail in the coffin. You... you are aware people die from complex things right? Or do people only ever die of one thing in your world? Are you okay? Do you need to maybe re-understand the world a little bit?
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May 12, 2015 20:46
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I think instead of just dash cams, and body cams, we should also have handgun cams on officers sidearms. They would be much harder to block the view intentionally or accidentally.
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May 12, 2015 20:47
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pathetic little tramp posted:You honestly think not being able to get an expert witness (who cost money) to testify against a police department is indicative of the truth instead of being indicative of the legal system? Jesus but you're blind. Looking at the testimoney notes it looked like the family hired at least a pathologist and multiple attorneys so this "they couldn't afford someone to testify" on basic nursing care rings pretty hollow. pathetic little tramp posted:Where did I allege he died from sedatives alone? Holy poo poo why are you this intentionally obtuse? The family's attorneys argued that he did not die from a heart attack.
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May 12, 2015 20:51
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Jarmak posted:The family's attorneys argued that he did not die from a heart attack. Jesus Christ, your intentionally obtuse gimmick is loving old and annoying. I'm blocking you. Re-loving-read what I wrote, then go ahead and reply I'll never see it. (Hint: You're not disagreeing with me in what I quoted from you). pathetic little tramp fucked around with this message at 20:55 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 20:52
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pathetic little tramp posted:You honestly think not being able to get an expert witness (who cost money) to testify against a police department is indicative of the truth instead of being indicative of the legal system? Jesus but you're blind. Also, I feel compelled to ask: Are you are aware that, even if the officers' use of force was unjustified, that has no bearing on whether his subsequent medical care was competent? quote:There are literally people in this thread arguing he died from a heart attack from steroid abuse. It just so happened that his steroid-related death came right after he was beaten brutally for 20 minutes, was forcefully restrained to a chair, and injected with powerful sedatives. What a coincidence! You guys would have been Mussolini's favourites. pathetic little tramp posted:Yes but is it indicated for use when the patient has just received a brutal beating for 20 minutes? Beating can equal strain on the heart. Strain on the heart means contraindication for sedatives. That's not even med school classes, that's entry level EMT training. Heart damage = do not slow the heart.
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May 12, 2015 21:00
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pathetic little tramp posted:Jesus Christ, your intentionally obtuse gimmick is loving old and annoying. I'm blocking you. Re-loving-read what I wrote, then go ahead and reply I'll never see it. quote:Both defense experts also conceded, under cross-examination by family attorneys, that a person could die from traumatic or positional asphyxia if heavy weight was placed on a person's back for an extended period of time. Positional asphyxia is a condition in which a person does not get enough oxygen because of the way his or her body is placed. The experts used examples of a person being trampled in a crowd. The entire basis of the families case is that you're wrong. edit: Dead Reckoning posted:The family had already retained a medical expert (which you would know if you had done any reading.) He didn't bring up or testify about the use of Ativan, despite having access to the nurses' notes. I guess they should have hired you instead. They went further then that, they testified that his heart didn't have anything to do with his death.
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May 12, 2015 21:00
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Here's the point you keep trying to miss, for what reason I don't know: Okay, he was taking some steroids. Great. Now, he just happened to have a heart attack from those steroids after getting the poo poo beat out of him for 20 minutes, being stripped naked, forcefully strapped to a chair, injected with sedatives, and left alone for 4 minutes. Reread that sentence. That is literally your argument. Read it again. Is the human body supposed to be capable of getting the poo poo beat out of it for 20 minutes, stripped naked, forcefully strapped to a chair, injected with sedatives, and left alone for 4 minutes just as long as you don't take steroids? That's braindead thinking. Watch. The. loving. Video. And important question: who, in the video, throws the first punch?
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May 12, 2015 21:04
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pathetic little tramp posted:Here's the point you keep trying to miss, for what reason I don't know: Okay, he was taking some steroids. Great. Now, he just happened to have a heart attack from those steroids after getting the poo poo beat out of him for 20 minutes, being stripped naked, forcefully strapped to a chair, injected with sedatives, and left alone for 4 minutes. Reread that sentence. That is literally your argument. Read it again. Yes, unequivocally, someone with a heart that isn't completely dysfunctional would be completely expected to live through that. edit: Another fun fact, the sedative you are harping about is used to treat seizures, which is way more strain on the heart. It also carries no warnings regarding heart conditions Jarmak fucked around with this message at 21:16 on May 12, 2015 |
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May 12, 2015 21:09
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Just watched the live feed from Madison. DA Ozanne is not going to bring charges in the death of Tony Robinson. Tweet compilation here: http://live.jsonline.com/Event/Decision_on_charges_in_Tony_Robinson_shooting
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May 12, 2015 21:15
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It turns out the guy did steroids, so that means everything the cops did is fine. Whew!
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May 12, 2015 21:17
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Lemming posted:It turns out the guy did steroids, so that means everything the cops did is fine. Whew! From a list of side effects of severe steroid abuse, right next to each other: quote:Heart disease, such as heart attack and stroke Perhaps they should have given him more ativan, sooner.
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May 12, 2015 21:20
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Alligator Horse posted:Just watched the live feed from Madison. DA Ozanne is not going to bring charges in the death of Tony Robinson. Maybe this already got covered, but was there any particular reason why this PD decided to send only one cop to deal with a guy who was clearly on stimulants? Because any time I've seen any footage of someone on drugs getting dealt with, it's usually by a cadre of people who are capable of holding them down.
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May 12, 2015 21:21
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hobbesmaster posted:From a list of side effects of severe steroid abuse, right next to each other: What medical condition does beating, stripping, and strapping to a chair help with?
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May 12, 2015 21:22
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Perhaps they shouldn't have beaten him to death.Lemming posted:What medical condition does beating, stripping, and strapping to a chair help with? Living.
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