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Bobo the Red posted:In real world examples of monarchies/nobility, you can lose your place in line for way smaller infractions. I guess Westeros could have completely insane lax rules about that, but it would be weird. For a real world example Robert is essentially the same as Henry VII founder of the Tudor dynasty. They both came from bastard houses that had been legitimized and both won their crowns in battle over better claimants, or at least those with a clearer blood claim. Spoiler: House Lancaster goes extinct in the war of the roses. edit: Richard III would be a good combo of the mad king and Tywin because no one liked him and he ordered the deaths of his older brothers sons. actually probably York=Stark, Lancaster=Lannister, Plantagenet Dynasty=Targaryen Dynasty. lol kinda lazy actually he basically combined real people and houses from history to write his story. Festus The Fetus fucked around with this message at 11:51 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 11:41
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Someone earlier asked about Eastern Kingdoms and such. There is a China analogue in the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, which is implied to be pretty huge. Its distant enough that it never really comes up (I think Ibben gets heavier mention), and no one will ever go there. Notably on their northern border they have a Wall analogue (not made of ice) that combined with natural barriers keeps them separated from a desert inhabited by "demons" and "bloodless men".
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May 14, 2015 14:28
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I really wish Sunday's episode had been a better episode. It was a bad episode ly.
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May 14, 2015 14:37
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counterfeitsaint posted:All men must squat. Valar marpoopus.
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May 14, 2015 14:54
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Festus The Fetus posted:edit: Richard III would be a good combo of the mad king and Tywin because no one liked him and he ordered the deaths of his older brothers sons. I'd recommend you don't use Shakespeare as an historical source because: a) he exaggerated wildly. And when he wasn't exaggerating, he just plain loving made poo poo up. b) he was desperate to ingratiate himself with the Tudor dynasty for money and also to avoid imminent death. So he might, just might, not be the most unbiased source! Although the stoic honorable Ned Stark being portrayed as a treacherous fiend by the Lannisters fits the theme rather well.
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May 14, 2015 15:00
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marktheando posted:I'm Scottish and so I have a banknote in my wallet right now with a picture of Robert the Bruce, King of Scots on it. Our greatest national hero, the man who defeated the English at Bannockburn 700 years ago. A man who stabbed his cousin to death in front of the altar of a church to get on the throne. I stated right there that you can still end up king and legitimize yourself, but until your rear end is on the throne, you absolutely are an usurper. cock hero flux posted:Several people could have been king by right of conquest. Tywin Lannister, Jon Arryn, and Ned Stark all had armies and all fought against the Mad King(some more than others). The reason Robert was the one who assumed the throne is because he had a claim on it. It wasn't a great claim, but any claim is better than no claim. Ned explicitly did not want to be king, Tywin would have been immediately overthrown by the others since he did a last minute turn around, and Arryn was basically going along with the war of his proteges, so it would have been strange for him to take charge after. It was Robert and Ned's war, and one of them wanted the throne far less than the other. "I'm the King because my mother's mother's father was the King" sounds stupid because that is not why he is king. He is king because he declared war against the throne and won. He killed the crown prince, someone else killed most of the rest, and then he called himself king. He was never the rightful heir. He wasn't the rightful heir before he rebelled, or when he became king. He did not need to be, because he loving won. After he did that, he can then say, "oh yeah, my grandma blahblahblah" but that is not why he is king (especially since people with better claims to the throne were and are alive). Daenerys was born after the rebellion, but Vyseris wasn't; there was never a break in Targaryen succession that made Robert the heir. "If you're the King solely because of your personal military strength, then you only remain King so long as you are the strongest." This is exactly what happened: Robert was king until someone came along and deposed him. He didn't lose in a war, because he had really strong ties with most of the ruling families, but eventually someone saw an opportunity and got rid of him. Now Stannnis is trying to depose Tommen, but so far, Tommen is in a stronger position. Both their claims to the throne only exist if Robert started a new dynasty; otherwise, Daenerys is queen (and Stannis should be rallying to her in accordance to his love of rules)
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May 14, 2015 16:50
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Arglebargle III posted:I really wish Sunday's episode had been a better episode. It was a bad episode ly. Yeah it was a dull episode where not much happened except for repitition of that which had come before. Tyrion and Jorah have another conversation about the (lack of) wine. Brienne tells someone about her oath for the 44 millionth time. The Boltons are shown to be big meanies and Ramsay has daddy issues (again). There's a scene with some angry women on a beach which seems to have been broadly panned. We didnt get any more of Cersei's swift and so far very succesful King's Landing power grab, which is probably the most fun place in Westeros right now. Someone got eaten by Dragons at least.
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May 14, 2015 17:07
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hiddenmovement posted:Yeah it was a dull episode where not much happened Stannis is marching on Winterfell 
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May 14, 2015 17:39
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Schizotek posted:Someone earlier asked about Eastern Kingdoms and such. There is a China analogue in the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, which is implied to be pretty huge. Its distant enough that it never really comes up (I think Ibben gets heavier mention), and no one will ever go there. Notably on their northern border they have a Wall analogue (not made of ice) that combined with natural barriers keeps them separated from a desert inhabited by "demons" and "bloodless men". I'd watch that spin-off.
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May 14, 2015 17:50
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Blazing Ownager posted:I'd watch that spin-off. I tried watching red cliff and internal affairs and my problem with asian media is i can never tell the characters apart.
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May 14, 2015 17:54
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Blazing Ownager posted:I'd watch that spin-off. The Netflix Marco Polo series is pretty much what you're asking for. It's a Game of Thrones-inspired period drama about Kublai Khan and his conquest in Song China. No fantasy elements, obviously, unless you count a blind monk who's a Kung Fu master, or Arab ninja assassins. (Marco himself is pretty boring, but Hundred Eyes is awesome as gently caress.)
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May 14, 2015 19:05
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Xealot posted:The Netflix Marco Polo series is pretty much what you're asking for. It's a Game of Thrones-inspired period drama about Kublai Khan and his conquest in Song China.
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May 14, 2015 19:09
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JT Jag posted:"Let's make a TV series where we take the writings of Marco Polo at face value" is pretty much fantasy. You haven't read Marco Polo if you think the TV-series is even close to as over the top and bat poo poo insane as the original tale is.
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May 14, 2015 19:48
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The Human Crouton posted:Jorah's stonebutt. It never gets that far, while the virus thinks he's a cool guy it would prefer to just stay friends.
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May 14, 2015 20:02
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Xoidanor posted:You haven't read Marco Polo if you think the TV-series is even close to as over the top and bat poo poo insane as the original tale is. If they didn't go full over the top it's a shame.
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May 14, 2015 20:04
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I take it the whole stonemen thing is GRMM's equivalent of leprosy?
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May 14, 2015 20:05
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Hexel posted:I take it the whole stonemen thing is GRMM's equivalent of leprosy? Pretty much. It's high infectious and the people who get it either get to Old Valyria or outright killed.
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May 14, 2015 20:06
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Is there any reason they get exiled to Old Valyria specifically?
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May 14, 2015 20:36
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:Is there any reason they get exiled to Old Valyria specifically?
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May 14, 2015 20:50
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:Is there any reason they get exiled to Old Valyria specifically? There's no one around. Edit: beaten like a Stone Man.
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May 14, 2015 20:51
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Bobo the Red posted:I stated right there that you can still end up king and legitimize yourself, but until your rear end is on the throne, you absolutely are an usurper.  Nobody said he was the "rightful Heir". They said he had a more legitimate claim than the rest of the lords after the war, and the fact that he killed or exiled everybody in line before him doesn't take away that legitimacy, which is what you're arguing about. While yes, Robert did establish a new Dynasty, he had a legitimate claim to the throne beyond just the fact that he won. And also, despite being the one who killed his father, Tyrion could easily return to be the Lord of Casterly Rock, because he still has hereditary claim to it, he just needs support to oppose Cersei and company.quote:"If you're the King solely because of your personal military strength, then you only remain King so long as you are the strongest." This is exactly what happened: Robert was king until someone came along and deposed him. He didn't lose in a war, because he had really strong ties with most of the ruling families, but eventually someone saw an opportunity and got rid of him. Now Stannis is trying to depose Tommen, but so far, Tommen is in a stronger position. Both their claims to the throne only exist if Robert started a new dynasty; otherwise, Daenerys is queen (and Stannis should be rallying to her in accordance to his love of rules) Robert wasn't deposed, as far as almost everybody in the world knows, he died from a hunting accident and left an heir, who -despite Lannister Incest, Rumors of Lannister Incest, and Ned's investigations and subterfuge with Robert's last will- was the child Robert declared as his legitimate son and heir, and when he died, it passed on to his brother, the other child Robert recognized publicly as his own and the legitimate next in succession. Stannis could depose Tommen and would probably be able to rule without objection because of the rumors, but that doesn't make him the rightful heir. You only think so because you have an omniscient POV. A child who is suspected to be a bastard as a result of the queen's infidelity isn't automatically one without proof or a confession by the queen, if the king believes the child is his. Dany's claim is legitimate, but she still has to win the throne back, she can't just set foot on Westeros and say "mine!". If some other outsider came along and conquered and took the throne with no claim at all, they would have a hard time holding it without dragons, as Dany is discovering in Meereen. (p.s., I love that Google Chrome's spell-checker corrects for GOT proper nouns!). UFOTofuTacoCat posted:Is there any reason they get exiled to Old Valyria specifically? Yeah, it's an abandoned place that nobody else wants because of the Doom. My Q-Face fucked around with this message at 21:31 on May 14, 2015 |
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May 14, 2015 21:28
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The concept behind Valyria is pretty much "what if the Romans had dragons, and the capital of the Roman Empire was Pompeii?"
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May 14, 2015 21:36
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It just seems like a tall order for these disabled folks to make it all the way to Valyria. I would probably just hang in the woods closer to home.
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May 14, 2015 21:53
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The world of GoT doesn't seem like a place where folks would bother sending family members off to live in a far away leper colony. They'd just slice their throats, toss 'em in a ditch, and move on.
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May 14, 2015 21:58
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:It just seems like a tall order for these disabled folks to make it all the way to Valyria. I would probably just hang in the woods closer to home. Seems like a tall order to ship all the lepers to a colony in Molokai, too. But it's a forced move, so it's not like they have a choice in the matter. And the disease seems to rob them of their wits a bit, so self-imposed exile would only last so long.
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May 14, 2015 21:58
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feedmyleg posted:The world of GoT doesn't seem like a place where folks would bother sending family members off to live in a far away leper colony. They'd just slice their throats, toss 'em in a ditch, and move on. They likely get the option to trek to Valyria or get butchered. Most people probably wouldn't even give the offer. Getting your heart stab seems like a mercy compared to slowly dying and turning feral.
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May 14, 2015 22:02
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Yeah, it's just weird to me that if greyscale can rub off onto a doll and make that doll be infectious, that anyone would risk transporting these guys halfway across the world instead of burning them immediately.
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May 14, 2015 22:03
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feedmyleg posted:The world of GoT doesn't seem like a place where folks would bother sending family members off to live in a far away leper colony. They'd just slice their throats, toss 'em in a ditch, and move on.
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May 14, 2015 22:04
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UFOTofuTacoCat posted:It just seems like a tall order for these disabled folks to make it all the way to Valyria. I would probably just hang in the woods closer to home. It's probably more common in Essos (specifically, the Free Cities like Volantis). In Westeros, I imagine Valyria is "privilege" exclusively reserved for wealthy families (e.g. the Baratheons) who could afford it. Craster just let the disease run its course for his two daughters and then dragged them out into the woods to make an end of it. I bet it's a similar story for other poor people.
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May 14, 2015 22:06
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JT Jag posted:Grayscale is really infectious. Kill someone and toss 'em in a ditch and there's a chance their body might infect the water table. That makes more sense, actually. If getting so much as touched puts you at risk then a spray of blood or a corpse tainting the soil/water will definitely be bad news. I guess if someone shows symptoms they just hand them a rowboat and tell them to go down the river until they reach Valyria.
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May 14, 2015 22:08
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Walda
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May 14, 2015 22:17
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Baron von Eevl posted:I'm gonna go for the wildcard and say Tyrion. The Human Crouton posted:Jorah's stonebutt. Bobo the Red posted:No one's (jaqen)
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May 14, 2015 22:38
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My Q-Face posted:
I don't see how Robert would have any legitimacy as a Targaryen king, even if killing everyone in front of him didn't eliminate him from the line, because he failed to do so: Viserys was alive. Anyone who would care about Robert's grandma would know enough to know Vyseris was alive, which meant Robert's Targaryen blood was worth all of nothing, because if the Targaryen line mattered, Robert wasn't king. Like, I get that it was a cited reason for why Robert and not the others, but it seems ridiculous. But then all nobility sorta insane anyway, so maybe I shouldn't get hung up on "I killed most of this family, so you should give me their stuff because I am related to them. Why yes, that kid is more closely related but don't worry, i'll kill him too maybe" quote:Robert wasn't deposed, as far as almost everybody in the world knows, he died from a hunting accident and left an heir, who -despite Lannister Incest, Rumors of Lannister Incest, and Ned's investigations and subterfuge with Robert's last will- was the child Robert declared as his legitimate son and heir, and when he died, it passed on to his brother, the other child Robert recognized publicly as his own and the legitimate next in succession. This is a funny misunderstanding because a few pages back I was the one arguing that Tommen is the rightful king of Westeros, and Stannis is full of poo poo for pretty much those reasons. You're right though, Stannis is actually fighting for a different Baratheon dynasty than Robert/Tommen's quote:If some other outsider came along and conquered and took the throne with no claim at all, they would have a hard time holding it without dragons, as Dany is discovering in Meereen. Robert managed to hold Westeros for a while without dragons precisely because he wasn't an outsider. He was a Stormlord, and forged closed ties with two other great Lords, and married the daughter of another. The Targaryens generally preffered not to do that, and that's largely why the were in decline: they came as conquerors and kept themselves apart. I honestly don't see why his ties to a Targaryen would matter at all, since the whole rebellion was about ousting a dynasty of entitled psychos.
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May 14, 2015 22:40
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Bobo the Red posted:Excuse me for thinking committing murder makes you a bad person. Robb and the Northmen (and Rivermen) were already forced into rebellion by Joffrey declaring them all traitors if they didn't show up in King's Landing and submit to him (and allow themselves to be hostages forever).
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May 14, 2015 22:54
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JT Jag posted:Robert was the legitimate king by right of conquest. Having a really old bloodline tie to the Targaryens to make it look authentic was just a bonus. It also would have helped him actually do the conquest. It's not like he flew into King's Landing like Superman and snapped the old king's neck. One of the ways you get other noble families to join your revolution is by not threatening to completely overturn dynastic succession – which they're relying on for their own legitimacy and eventually handing over their lands to their child – so it's helpful to have a plausible claim to the throne even if the fundamental basis for exerting authority is military power.
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May 14, 2015 23:06
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People killing their kin hasn't been a very significant obstacle to inheritance, historically. For instance: Boleslaw of Bohemia murdered St. Wenceslaus, only to gain his throne, and then declare him a martyr (that's what i would call chutzpah!)
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May 15, 2015 00:07
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JT Jag posted:Grayscale is really infectious. Kill someone and toss 'em in a ditch and there's a chance their body might infect the water table. You know, that's a case of the author increasing the fictional stakes failing to appreciate the historical epidmics that inspired him.
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May 15, 2015 00:17
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Sir Kodiak posted:It also would have helped him actually do the conquest. It's not like he flew into King's Landing like Superman and snapped the old king's neck. One of the ways you get other noble families to join your revolution is by not threatening to completely overturn dynastic succession – which they're relying on for their own legitimacy and eventually handing over their lands to their child – so it's helpful to have a plausible claim to the throne even if the fundamental basis for exerting authority is military power. Pretty much all the noble houses of Westeros are millennia older than the Targaryen presence there, and they actively follow a different system of inheritance. Their legitimacy was only circumstantially tied to the Iron Throne. And, if protecting the establishment was a real motivation, would established lords (many, presumably, with extended families) not find it a very dangerous precedent to allow someone to kill his way through an entire line of succession? Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Robb and the Northmen (and Rivermen) were already forced into rebellion by Joffrey declaring them all traitors if they didn't show up in King's Landing and submit to him (and allow themselves to be hostages forever). Joffrey was their rightful king, he had every right to expect Robb to bend the knee. As for holding them hostage (which I honestly don't remember Joffrey saying), Joffrey would've been quickly talked down from that by Tywin and Tyrion. Look at how the Prince of Dorne reacted when Oberyn died: his brother was killed, and that sucks, but he died legally, just like Ned, so he keeps his head on straight. The North wasn't forced into anything. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 01:11 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 00:56
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Bobo the Red posted:Joffrey was their rightful king Bobo the Red posted:As for holding them hostage (which I honestly don't remember Joffrey saying), Joffrey would've been quickly talked down from that by Tywin and Tyrion.
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May 15, 2015 01:17
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tooterfish posted:No he wasn't. He was a bastard born of incest. Not according to Ned he wasn't  Also having someone executed can be a split second decision, holding a bunch of people hostage for the rest of their lives kinda can't be.
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May 15, 2015 01:24
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