|
Do they never explain why Copperhead is a woman?
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 02:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 10:04 |
|
|
Either she killed the previous Copperhead and assumed his title or it's a title carried by a number of people. The reason is never stated outright.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 02:29
|
|
|
We haven't seen boobs in a couple hours? Let's just go with that.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 02:29
|
|
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:Either she killed the previous Copperhead and assumed his title or it's a title carried by a number of people. The reason is never stated outright. Let's be honest here, they don't even give you that much. The only thing the game tells you is that all the reports were of a man. Were the reports wrong and she's just super mysterious? Killed the man? Protegee and heir to the man? A sex change? Actually a robot snake in an elaborate human costume? The game will never tell you, because that lip service to the change in the bad guy roll at the start is the only time it's ever brought up. Nothing interesting is done with it.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 02:37
|
|
|
Surprised that sequence doesn't tickle anyone's fancy, even just a little bit. I mean we have the intentional juxtaposition of Batman brutally but fruitlessly beating a helpless, broken Sionis and then, like a literal minute later, his own psyche calling him out on actually being a pretty lovely hero all things considered. Bruce berates himself for not using more of his fortune for charitable, big picture purposes as per the Wayne family tradition and altogether considers himself a plague on gotham, the possible implication being he acknowledges that he's partly responsible for the escalation that's occurring. A lot of those critiques have been talking points mentioned in the thread & videos. Ironically we only get to see that kind of sober thinking from Bruce when he's drugged up because otherwise he's so intensely focused on saving the next life that he doesn't stop to breathe. Ever. The arkham series, as a whole, seems to be focused on that aspect of his persona. In Asylum, Scarecrow's fear toxin torments him with visions of failure, in City the game torments him with real failures (and we see a dead-ragged Bruce in the Harley DLC) while Arkham Knight looks to be about the consequences of these failure - failure being defined under Bruce's strict terms anyway. There's other stuff going on in that video but since this is the dark knighting thread I'll leave it at that.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 03:28
|
|
hard counter posted:Surprised that sequence doesn't tickle anyone's fancy, even just a little bit. I mean we have the intentional juxtaposition of Batman brutally but fruitlessly beating a helpless, broken Sionis and then, like a literal minute later, his own psyche calling him out on actually being a pretty lovely hero all things considered. Bruce berates himself for not using more of his fortune for charitable, big picture purposes as per the Wayne family tradition and altogether considers himself a plague on gotham, the possible implication being he acknowledges that he's partly responsible for the escalation that's occurring. A lot of those critiques have been talking points mentioned in the thread & videos. Yes, nothing is better writing than having a series of characters appear in a row to tell you how to feel- unless it's meaningless sniping at the thread as a whole. Would you say that our status as the "dark knighting thread" is a strong example of character development? Maybe scruffy should be partially crushed in an avalanche of shitposts so he can tell you about how this develops your character. Video 15 Notes Copperhead Cutscenes Why is Copperhead killing the Joker's henchmen? Good question- not answered. Notice that each of the cutscenes in the fight occurs in one of the setpiece areas of the steel mill, and that there are small inconsistencies in their development- for example, the final fight area is, in cutscenes, lacking the stairway that leads down into the area. Instead, it matches the unlockable concept art of the area(the weird cuts into and out of in-engine scenes are meant to paper over this difference). This suggests that the order of operations was to: 1. Make the script, 2. Make concept art for each scene, containing the needed features specified in the script, 3. Render these setpieces and animate cutscenes in them, 4. Make the rest of the game. My favorite is the awkward series of in-engine scene transitions right at the end of the fight, between the administration of the antidote and tossing Copperhead in the container- it was probably all cutscene originally, but they had to cut the middle portion because it included a wide angle shot of the room. Copperhead poison sequence Although the poison does an OK job of integrated gameplay (notice there's no sign of Batman's vitals dropping via the health bar like in AC), and sort of provides a sense of urgency, the rest of the sequence is pretty poor. Several really obnoxious violin stings with copperhead's shadow overlaid, and then a series of camera-controlled full stops while hallucinations stand there telling you how your character is so conflicted. I particularly appreciate how the bank manager wants to have everything both ways. Notice in particular that the developers were unable to sequence or space the lines to the scene, so there's no way to control pace other than a) make batman fall down or b) take away control and refocus the camera. As scruffy demonstrates, you basically walk away from a lot of the people you "failed", or can't locate them- I love him looking around for Loeb when he first starts talking. Contrast that with the hallway sequence in AA to see how else this could be done. Copperhead fight I really like the copperhead fight! It's a great example of doing a lot with relatively little- and make an engaging boss fight out of it. Although scruffy doesn't show it off, most gadgets can be used to take out the hallucinations. The real Copperhead has different light effects applied to her and, I believe, different flipping animations. The game also doesn't cheat her position, except for the between-stage transitions. In reality, you're basically fighting a large number of one-hit enemies and one enemy tied to the health bar. It's entirely possible to avoid hitting CH until last and leave her standing alone- eventually, no more enemies will spawn. Similarly, the last sequence with the "dash attack" is always the same- but it rarely feels that way due to how the fight is framed and scripted. There's very little going on here gameplay-wise, but the structuration of the fight makes it still feel significantly different from other fights. The prefight "training" with the three enemies to give you timing cues (particularly on NG+) is also a great touch. An interesting sound bug- the game treats the hallucinations as enemies, and like normal enemies, they have in-fight barks. The game struggles to keep these barks separate from the heavily scripted lines that the "real" CH is presumably saying to mark state transitions. 3 for one explosion The scene at 11:03 isn't just meant to introduce the Black Mask sidequest-it's also supposed to give you an easy chance to knock out three enemies at once for a predator mode challenge. Drug Stashes Another "go to place, put thing on thing" sidequest, based on the Venom/Bane sidequest in AC. This is the best-developed of those sidequests, however- it's actually much better handled and more fulfilling than its AC counterpart. It's a shame there are 1-3 more of these quests in the game, depending on what you count. Snipers There are two features of openworld snipers in this game that make them a lot more obnoxious than in previous games- first, they respawn, and second, they shift the direction of their gaze really quickly. There are some locations in the game where a pair of snipers are covering each other about 66% of the time- and there's not really an opening to take them both out in stealth, especially when one or both of them are also covered by other goons with guns. Deadshot Intro This is really quite cool- it's well-integrated into the detective system, and is one of the only other really extensive uses of the system outside of the Lacey Park case. BTW, the casing that "matches others in the criminal database" also literally has the word DEADSHOT engraved on the side. Great detective work, Batman! The radio frequency is pretty goofy- my guess is they couldn't come up with a way to tie the intro to the next scene with deadshot, so this is what they came up with. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 05:34 on May 19, 2015 |
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 04:22
|
|
|
JamieTheD posted:They didn't need a Scarecrow-alike, but they went "Oh, Copperhead's boring, why not make them like Scarecrow?" Well, one of Asylum's biggest praises was the Scarecrow segments, so they've (I know "they" is a different studio this time whatever just been trying to replicate that success ever since, so they'll jam hallucinations wherever they can. I imagine Copperhead got turned into a Scarecrow-a-like because there's not a real better way to show a master of poisons fighting Batman other than Batman slowly losing health and aside from a reduced (maybe ticking clock?) health bar, hallucinations and shadow clones are a good way to illustrate Bats succumbing to the neurotoxin. Then the devs thought "poison? neurotoxin? There's our Scarecrow segment boys!" Orrrr, you could take the easier option and say the devs wanted to do a Scarecrow segment but make sure that the player did it and not put it off to the side (like you can do with Hatter's mission) Wedemeyer posted:...did Batman just administer the antidote through his own mask? Well, I guess it's more padded elsewhere. He did the same thing in City. Guess he either has a soft spot on the mask or his injection gun has a hell of a needle. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 05:40 on May 19, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 05:38
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Yes, nothing is better writing than having a series of characters appear in a row to tell you how to feel- unless it's meaningless sniping at the thread as a whole. Would you say that our status as the "dark knighting thread" is a strong example of character development? Maybe scruffy should be partially crushed in a torrent of shitposts so he can tell you about how this develops your character. Please take note that I tried to avoid saying that the writing there was the best or even exceptional, only that it was competent in placement and content and so I'm not sure why that sequence usually gets the rough end of the stick as far as criticisms go. As far as this game's offenses go, it's mild to non-existant imho. Saying the thread should be dark knighting was a funny way of saying the unabashed praise you'd get from white knighting has no place for a game like Origins, whose strengths and weaknesses deserve equal mention given its nature.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 05:56
|
|
|
Nihilarian posted:Do they never explain why Copperhead is a woman? Maybe she's the daughter of the original Copperhead, or a sidekick gone pro. It really should be better explained. Also, how would Batman track down Electrocutioner if he had his gloves turned off? On the other hand, he seems like the kind of dumbass that keeps them turned on all the time. He must have really good batteries!
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 06:07
|
|
hard counter posted:Saying the thread should be dark knighting was a funny way of saying the unabashed praise you'd get from white knighting has no place for a game like Origins, whose strengths and weaknesses deserve equal mention given its nature. Origins' strengths and weaknesses would deserve equal mention if its strengths and weaknesses were equal. They're not. It's the thread Arkham Origins deserves, not the one it needs.
|
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 06:45
|
|
|
Her Bio points out that Copperhead could be an entire group of Assassins. She is just one of them.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 06:47
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:It's the thread Arkham Origins deserves, not the one it needs. No doubt. Shame we disagree on so many points though.  I didn't much care for the copperhead fight myself because the actual fight was mostly a retread of Ras' encounter in City but w/hardly any new wrinkles. In both cases Bats trips balls  while fighting imagined minions of an antagonist who will also periodically streak across the screen to prompt a dodge. The fight ends as soon as Bruce regains his sanity, such as it is. Origins did make the battle a little less 'video-gamey' by removing the part where there's a giant head that spits projectiles (that you return in kind with timed gadget shots) and it removed the hallucinated boss arena but Origins didn't really compensate with any additions of substance imho. While this boss fight isn't offensively bad, to me it very much represents Origins' overall quality, 'it's like City but -1.'
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 07:17
|
|
|
Just remembered that another (anti-hero) Electrocutioner did kill Batman. Luckily, Robin ran after him and forced him to use his powers to revive Batman. I think the villain EC threat of killing Bats and then jumpstarting his heart again might be a reference to this.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 07:25
|
|
|
JamieTheD posted:Well, judging by the fact that little Alberto's still around, and hasn't even visited the opticians yet, the events of Long Halloween haven't happened yet. The Falcones haven't been stung, so Dent doesn't have a court case yet where the head of the Falcone family is going to throw acid in his face. The idea that Batman fears a Gotham that doesn't need him is actually incredibly interesting. It could delve into the Batman that I hate (maybe he's just a nut in a costume!) but it could also be really deep. What would you do if your place in the world suddenly became obsolete? Would Bats just relocate to Star City or something? Would he just be Bruce Wayne full time? He couldn't, it'd kill him. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck Copperhead's fight on any game mode where you can't see the counters. The fight never feels particularly smooth and I could just feel the game telling me "Get good, maybe you won't get your rear end kicked." No game, it's not my fault that there's 7 of them attacking me and I can't tell which of them are just posing and which of them want to kill me. I remember the helicopter thing as something they really played up in commercials and that sort of thing. I was under the impression it would be part of the main game though, not tucked away in a sidequest. Deadshot deserves better than what he got in this game and the last, honestly. I bet it's hard though considering, much like Shiva and Deathstroke, he's too broken for players to have a fair chance against him in any straight up fight. I know a lot of people wanted more from the detective sections and this one has a tiny moment. They could've just had Batman read the numbers and then we as the players could think "Hey, maybe this is a radio frequency" and find him that way instead of Bats just flat out telling us.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 07:29
|
|
SonicRulez posted:They could've just had Batman read the numbers and then we as the players could think "Hey, maybe this is a radio frequency" and find him that way instead of Bats just flat out telling us. They can't do that because avery significant portion of players would miss it, then blame the game for it. That's the painful lesson of years of playtesting and negative consumer responses to ingame "detective work", across the entire industry SonicRulez posted:The idea that Batman fears a Gotham that doesn't need him is actually incredibly interesting. It could delve into the Batman that I hate (maybe he's just a nut in a costume!) but it could also be really deep. What would you do if your place in the world suddenly became obsolete? Would Bats just relocate to Star City or something? Would he just be Bruce Wayne full time? He couldn't, it'd kill him. Check out the BTAS episode, "Perchance to Dream" for a good exploration of this. It's one of the things the series could have done instead of giving us American McGee's Hatter. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 07:57 on May 19, 2015 |
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 07:55
|
|
|
I believe the "Where's the Joker?!" line is the first time Batman's VA returns to his Ezio voice for an encore. It's just a shame he didn't go all the way and throw in the Italian accent.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 09:42
|
|
|
Batman gets poisoned and must get the cure, again! What a fresh and engaging plot point. Since we've seen most of the assassins now, it's probably time to bring up my main gripe with the game: they all just sit around and wait for you. I would've liked some random (or at least "random") encounters as you go through the city, some of them taking potshots at you and trying to wear you down as you fly around. But instead everybody just sets up camp and waits for you to come along. You don't fight more than one of them at a time, and you know almost exactly when you'll have to fight them. What a waste. (I got very excited at the prospect of 8 villains at once when I first played.  )
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 10:00
|
|
|
What nationality is copperhead even? Her accent swings between russian and mexican. And yeah, I'm supporting the "We haven't had boobs in a while" theory of why copperheads a woman. Poison being seen as a generally feminine way of killing someone probably had a part in why it was copperhead and not someone else.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 10:27
|
|
|
I dunno, I like the Copperhead fight. I also wasn't offended by the boobs but that may be a personal failure. I just love the way Bats throws her so hard she bounces off the grate, that's a bit of force! In other news, the next video is the one I spent hours trying to figure out how to make an edit in. You won't want to miss it!
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 10:46
|
|
|
I'm not offended, I'm just confused why you'd do it to a well established character without even saying why Couldn't give a rats rear end about the boobs either. And yeah the fight looks fun to play, but the whole leadup to it feels like a deja vu which is probably what people are angry about the most. The only thing in that video I'd be offended about is the lipsync on the bank manager, I mean holy poo poo that was like, amateur gmod video five years ago tier quality.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 10:54
|
|
|
Nalesh posted:I'm not offended, I'm just confused why you'd do it to a well established character without even saying why  Yeah I'd say it's pretty close.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 11:21
|
|
|
I like how after the extended hallucination and fight, Batman's response after curing himself is to just drop her on her head.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 11:57
|
|
|
Nalesh posted:The only thing in that video I'd be offended about is the lipsync on the bank manager, I mean holy poo poo that was like, amateur gmod video five years ago tier quality. I thought the idea of that was that the Joker toxin had stretched her mouth to where she couldn't move her lips properly.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 12:01
|
|
|
Striking Yak posted:Batman gets poisoned and must get the cure, again! What a fresh and engaging plot point. If the assassins had been running around the overworld, or had themed fortified positions like in Arkham City, it would have made more sense from an in-world perspective, and made the overworld more heterogeneous. Basically, a Batman game with the Nemesis system would have been super-rad.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 12:17
|
|
|
I'm still kind of stuck on the fact that Copperhead just sat back and let him administer the antidote to himself. She didn't seem to be terribly incapable of continuing the fight.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 13:39
|
|
|
She wasn't to know that Batman can, within minutes, synthesize and have delivered an effective antidote to her poison. She probably assumed it was going to be ineffective or just an analgesic or something. Still silly though.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 14:00
|
|
|
I assumed that he had managed to land some punches on the real her during the hallucinations fight and she simply wasn't in a state to interfere at that point.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 15:15
|
|
|
"This bullet casing says Deadshot on it, I wonder if Deadshot is behind this."
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 16:44
|
|
|
Mzbundifund posted:I assumed that he had managed to land some punches on the real her during the hallucinations fight and she simply wasn't in a state to interfere at that point. Speaking of interference state I love the implied quantum phenomena going on in that fight. If a copperhead clone attacks and you counter it, it disappears because you observed its position and it wasn't there. If you don't counter the clone it actually hits you and you take real damage so I guess she was really there, at least briefly. You run this strange whack-a-mole until you've found her a few times. It's plays out like a boss battle against schrodinger's
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 17:00
|
|
|
Nalesh posted:I'm not offended, I'm just confused why you'd do it to a well established character Is Copperhead really a well established character though? It's not like we got a gender bent Bane or Two Face. There can't possibly be a ton of people who knew Copperhead was a man (outside of the game telling you that). The game provides the idea that Copperhead is either just a cog in a large machine of Copperheads or that it's a name passed through assassins. I don't think it's really meant to be interesting enough that people wonder about it.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 17:42
|
|
|
SonicRulez posted:Is Copperhead really a well established character though? It's not like we got a gender bent Bane or Two Face. There can't possibly be a ton of people who knew Copperhead was a man (outside of the game telling you that). The game provides the idea that Copperhead is either just a cog in a large machine of Copperheads or that it's a name passed through assassins. I don't think it's really meant to be interesting enough that people wonder about it. They deliberately call attention to it in the opening reel of the 8 assassins. They then proceed to do nothing interesting with it. The fact that copperhead is a woman instead of a man changes nothing and is never brought up again. Which makes the change and calling attention to it pointless. It's sticking Chekhov's gun on the mantelpiece, having a character bring up that they've never seen the gun on the mantelpiece before and then promptly never mentioning it again. It's like they meant it to be an interesting and important fact and then changed their minds after all the art assets were already finished.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 17:59
|
|
|
In regards to Copperhead being a woman: Eric Holmes is the writer for Arkham Origins, so I guess they just kinda said "Brave and the Bold was a neat, but why not make it a chick?" 
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 19:08
|
|
|
The developers should have gone with a guy Copperhead so that we would have gotten cutscenes with a dude rubbing his crotch against Batman's face. FoolyCharged posted:They deliberately call attention to it in the opening reel of the 8 assassins. They then proceed to do nothing interesting with it. The fact that copperhead is a woman instead of a man changes nothing and is never brought up again. Which makes the change and calling attention to it pointless. It's sticking Chekhov's gun on the mantelpiece, having a character bring up that they've never seen the gun on the mantelpiece before and then promptly never mentioning it again. It's like they meant it to be an interesting and important fact and then changed their minds after all the art assets were already finished. The very fact that the "Chekov's gun" is never mentioned again disqualifies it from being a "Chehkov's gun." (I greatly dislike the "trope" understanding of that term since it undermines a lot of the complexity the term is supposed to represent.)
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 19:39
|
|
|
Mr. Highway posted:The developers should have gone with a guy Copperhead so that we would have gotten cutscenes with a dude rubbing his crotch against Batman's face. I liked the idea that everyone assumed copperhed was another male Assassin, because women are generally seem as 'life givers' and mothers, definitely not killers and murders. It would have made for a decent twisy imo. But there's no shocked reveal from anyone. Though I like the above idea. Batman being totally unphased by crotchfacing.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 20:24
|
|
|
I'm just gonna go with 'Copperhead's a woman because they wanted a scantily clad female villain and Shiva is usually too dignified for that.'
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 20:29
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:I'm just gonna go with 'Copperhead's a woman because they wanted a scantily clad female villain and Shiva is usually too dignified for that.' "And no one on Earth takes Harley Quinn or Poison Ivy seriously as threats."
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 20:31
|
|
|
I've never seen the male incarnations of Copperhead so I'm just imagining Voldo in the DC Universe.
|
|
#
?
May 19, 2015 23:51
|
|
|
ScurvyKip posted:I've never seen the male incarnations of Copperhead so I'm just imagining Voldo in the DC Universe. Orange and white spandex suit, giant goofy snakehead for a headpiece, tail optional. Some incarnations have him being a actual snake-man. fun fact: is also a woman in the Gotham series, but isn't explicitly called copperhead. Is also an assassin with contortionist skills. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 00:26 on May 20, 2015 |
|
#
?
May 20, 2015 00:21
|
|
|
ScurvyKip posted:I've never seen the male incarnations of Copperhead so I'm just imagining Voldo in the DC Universe. He looked like this on the Justice League cartoon:  I remember (to me at least) his only notable scene being when a fight started going south he managed to grab Hawkgirl and tried to threaten her into basically being a getaway
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2015 00:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 1, 2024 10:04 |
|
|
Copperhead in the Justice League cartoons existed to get beaten- I think he poisoned someone once, and that's it. It's not that he was a humorous joke enemy, but by the time of his introduction the DCAU was starting to suffer from the scope creep that would kill it.
|
|
|
#
?
May 20, 2015 01:38
|
|