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Mors Rattus posted:oChangeling is weird, but it does contain a book which literally claims that Sir Isaac Newton and Newtonian physics were a plot to destroy dreams. It goes on to fellate Leibniz as a changeling hero.  Okay, apparently I didn't pay much attention when I was reading oChangeling. What's the story with Leibniz being a Changeling hero?
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May 20, 2015 22:24
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Kithbook: Nockers believes that Leibniz was the heroic Nocker foe of hated Banality-spreader Newton. All Nocker science is based on Leibniz, for reasons. This is basically all that I recall about Kithbook: Nocker.
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May 20, 2015 22:25
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Rand Brittain posted:Meanwhile, M20 is a very pretty book aside from some questionable art choices, but it seems to be taking a really hard ant-Traditions tack, to the point that the Hollow Ones and a bunch of the Crafts have gotten together to make their own Traditions with blackjack, and hookers. Isn't this mostly because, as far as the metaplot is concerned, basically everyone in a leadership position of the Traditions get killed in the early oughts and all that's left is the Rogue Council that people aren't sure if they should trust or not? If I run it I think I'm going to ditch most of the revised-era metaplot but keep the new Tradition names, because those are pretty good.
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May 20, 2015 22:39
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Swagger Dagger posted:Isn't this mostly because, as far as the metaplot is concerned, basically everyone in a leadership position of the Traditions get killed in the early oughts and all that's left is the Rogue Council that people aren't sure if they should trust or not? The metaplot is basically all optional, and there's a bunch of boxes saying things like "Maybe Doissetep exploded? Or maybe it didn't! It's all up to you!" The new metaplot additions are also theoretically optional, although even if you don't use them the book is still organized around the idea that the Crafts all joined the Disparate Alliance.
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May 20, 2015 22:56
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I'm loving that Focus is now two paragraphs detailing how you're a wizard/enlightened scientist/potted plant with a few universal requirements instead of a single line next to your Sphere picks.
Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 23:43 on May 20, 2015 |
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May 20, 2015 23:40
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Meanwhile oChangelings were listening to ICP's "Miracles" on repeat because learning things just kills the magic. From what I've been told, at least. C20's gonna be interesting. I thought it was canon that ICP's miracles is an Awakened collaboration between théarch Shaggy 2 Dope and libertine Violent J (extolling the wondrous and supernal in everyday life, the sleepers follow, the fact that they're standing on a giant metaphysical tower growing to link earth and heaven), against Seer Kanye and Jay Z's 'Watch The Throne' , an album about how rich and powerful they are and their chosen paths have made them.
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May 20, 2015 23:49
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Wasn't the problem that there was this whole slant where writers were all "look at these motherfuckers responsible for the modern world!  " and then every single reader immediately realized the modern world was actually kind of great, and that the Traditions didn't look so hot when part of their mission involves destroying modern medicine?Genuine question, I came in way after the oWoD days.
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May 20, 2015 23:59
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Tulul posted:Wasn't the problem that there was this whole slant where writers were all "look at these motherfuckers responsible for the modern world! That was a fan misinterpretation which spread rapidly because hegemony is a hell of a drug.
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May 21, 2015 00:02
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Effectronica posted:That was a fan misinterpretation which spread rapidly because hegemony is a hell of a drug. Hegemony?
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May 21, 2015 00:11
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Kavak posted:Hegemony? The conflict is between Western, and especially American, hegemony, as represented by the Technocratic Order, and all the alternatives to it, represented by the Traditions. The exalted subjects of hegemony, unable to comprehend it clearly, concluded that it was about everything that happened in the last five hundred years being defended by the noble forces of domination and control.
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May 21, 2015 00:22
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Mors Rattus posted:Kithbook: Nockers believes that Leibniz was the heroic Nocker foe of hated Banality-spreader Newton. All Nocker science is based on Leibniz, for reasons. This is basically all that I recall about Kithbook: Nocker. From what I remember about the history of these two figures (i.e. I read The Baroque Cycle and learned some science and maths) this is a hilariously inaccurate portrayal of Newton, alchemist extraordinaire and all-around astoundingly interesting crazy historical figure. Compare to Leibniz, who while also having a relatively interesting life, did things like inventing mechanical calculators, refining the binary number system and being a tutor to various nobles who wanted some Natural Philosophy in their life. Meanwhile, Isaac Newton was disguising himself to personally catch coin counterfeiters which he did in his duty of being Master of the Royal Mint.
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May 21, 2015 00:51
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lol I can't believe that while complaining about the slights against the foucaldian panopticon you guys have overlooked the incredibly boneheaded mechanics of Mage20, namely that 1s eat successes holy poo poo e. also since because Phil Brucato apparently hates oWoD revised his paradox chart is super lethal and all about st fiat
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May 21, 2015 01:20
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That's just oWoD. That's always gonna be there.
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May 21, 2015 01:26
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Mors Rattus posted:That's just oWoD. That's always gonna be there. No, it's not Revised. But hey you guys are the goonxperts and never ever could be wrong or read things poorly or be expected to have actual experience playing or running things. e: lol wait i was wrong, it was always in there, mage20 just has them create botches which wasn't in revised Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 01:36 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 01:33
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Mexcillent posted:also since because Phil Brucato apparently hates oWoD revised his paradox chart is super lethal and all about st fiat You do realize that Brucato is basically the patron saint of "Magic and Faeries are Real" in the Old World of Darkness and any rule that makes mages less powerful probably didn't come from him, right?
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May 21, 2015 01:38
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Mexcillent posted:No, it's not Revised. But hey you guys are the goonxperts and never ever could be wrong or read things poorly or be expected to have actual experience playing or running things. LMAO
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May 21, 2015 01:38
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Mexcillent posted:No, it's not Revised. But hey you guys are the goonxperts and never ever could be wrong or read things poorly or be expected to have actual experience playing or running things. You know, I was under this same misapprehension for years until someone on here corrected me and I went to look at it. I'm pretty sure it's Exalted that hosed me up, as always.
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May 21, 2015 01:40
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Kurieg posted:You do realize that Brucato is basically the patron saint of "Magic and Faeries are Real" in the Old World of Darkness and any rule that makes mages less powerful probably didn't come from him, right? Dan Ackroyd:Ghostbusters::Phil Brucato:OWoD Kurieg posted:Werewolf's anti-science stuff is also something of a relic of 1st edition, mostly because 1st edition Werewolf put forth the idea that any level of human development beyond hunter/gatherer society is inherently evil. While at the same time having all the werewolf tribes pull off ridiculously out of character schemes and backstabbing machinations that would make a Ventrue blush. The best part about the Technocracy and Werewolf is that the Technocracy is for some reason in deep with Pentex, because they're the bad guys, right? Ditto the Sabbat, despite the Wyrm being exactly the sort of thing the Sabbat burns people alive for being involved with.
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May 21, 2015 01:42
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Gilok posted:You know, I was under this same misapprehension for years until someone on here corrected me and I went to look at it. It's because I used Aeon which didn't have that rule. But tbh I still think everyone complaining about the technocracy and science is dumb and bad. Almost as dumb and bad as M20 because god drat this thing is a piece of poo poo.
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May 21, 2015 01:42
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Evil never fights evil, that's just silly.
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May 21, 2015 01:42
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Pope Guilty posted:The best part about the Technocracy and Werewolf is that the Technocracy is for some reason in deep with Pentex, because they're the bad guys, right? Ditto the Sabbat, despite the Wyrm being exactly the sort of thing the Sabbat burns people alive for being involved with. That was back before they had really worked out that the Weaver could, itself, be an enemy without actually meaning the Wyrm wasn't an enemy anymore. I think the idea of having two enemy factions might have popped poor MR*H's brain. I think the thing with the sabbat is more that almost everything the Sabbat does empowers the Wyrm, so they're aligned with the Wyrm whether they are aware of it or not. It's still better than the few 1st ed werewolf books that have the Sabbat and the Garou chumming around and sharing information like it ain't no thing.
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May 21, 2015 01:47
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Pope Guilty posted:Dan Ackroyd:Ghostbusters::Phil Brucato:OWoD  why is this so accurate
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May 21, 2015 01:52
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Mexcillent posted:No, it's not Revised. But hey you guys are the goonxperts and never ever could be wrong or read things poorly or be expected to have actual experience playing or running things. God bless and keep you, Mexcillent.
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May 21, 2015 01:57
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1s cancel successes. That's the Rule of 1. If you get 0 successes and one or more 1s before applying this rule, you get a botch. That's the rule in Revised. M20 says that rolling multiple 1s on a botch makes it worse. This makes sense if you want more competent people to fail harder. If you don't, don't use it. I generally don't use the Rule of 1 (1s cancelling successes) either because it's demoralizing as a procedure.
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May 21, 2015 02:01
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A lot of the times I'm compelled to defend oWoD and I do, just on the basis that it's best enjoyed as a superhero horror shared universe. It's basically that little slice of the Marvel universe where Werewolf by Night, Dracula, Blade, Moon Knight and so on hang out. That is the whole reason I like it. While I'm enjoying them, 1s worsening botches again because the 20th Anniversary editions are a celebration of the past is pretty boneheaded though. I don't use it, and most of the people who kickstarted this thing aren't going to either, but it really should have been an option instead of the default. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 02:05 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 02:03
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Lightning Lord posted:A lot of the times I'm compelled to defend oWoD and I do, just on the basis that it's best enjoyed as a superhero horror shared universe. It's basically that little slice of the Marvel universe where Werewolf by Night, Dracula, Blade, Moon Knight and so on hang out.
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May 21, 2015 02:05
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Kurieg posted:That was back before they had really worked out that the Weaver could, itself, be an enemy without actually meaning the Wyrm wasn't an enemy anymore. I think the idea of having two enemy factions might have popped poor MR*H's brain. The real issue is that it implies that a) the Camarilla aren't just as bad from a human perspective (they're basically a cancer gnawing away at the heart of human civilization and as the most powerful vampire faction are responsible for a lot of human misery) and b) the Sabbat are bad guys to the Camarilla's good guys, which is... seriously not right.
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May 21, 2015 02:06
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Pope Guilty posted:The real issue is that it implies that a) the Camarilla aren't just as bad from a human perspective (they're basically a cancer gnawing away at the heart of human civilization and as the most powerful vampire faction are responsible for a lot of human misery) and b) the Sabbat are bad guys to the Camarilla's good guys, which is... seriously not right. It makes sense as what neonates are told by their elders though.
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May 21, 2015 02:11
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Pope Guilty posted:The real issue is that it implies that a) the Camarilla aren't just as bad from a human perspective (they're basically a cancer gnawing away at the heart of human civilization and as the most powerful vampire faction are responsible for a lot of human misery) and b) the Sabbat are bad guys to the Camarilla's good guys, which is... seriously not right. Oh no, they're both horrific predators and walking embodiments of decay and suffering. It's just that one faction sort of pretends they're still the good guys and has semi functional relationships with a few werewolf tribes, and the other faction has shovelheads and people who go around wearing other peoples faces like masks stretched across their multiple piercings (Yes, that's an NPC in one of the Werewolf books)
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May 21, 2015 02:19
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Pope Guilty posted:Dan Ackroyd:Ghostbusters::Phil Brucato:OWoD It's not the Technocracy as a whole that's in cahoots with Pentex, just the Syndicate's Special Projects Division. It was White Wolf's way of making the Syndicate a weak link in the Technocracy because they ultimately cared more about their own profits than about the enlightenment of mankind. The Technocrats even have their own secret project devoted specifically to rooting out whatever's fishy about the Syndicate in general and SPD in particular.
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May 21, 2015 02:30
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I'm sort of in awe to see that somebody thought the Traditions were in need of some extra shades of grey. Did they miss the way the entire discourse online has turned more or less completely against them in the past ten years? I mean, seriously, I've spent a lot of time explaining that the Traditions don't hate electricity, and I'm not looking forward to those conversations now that M20 has decided that they mostly do.
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May 21, 2015 02:31
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Tulul posted:Wasn't the problem that there was this whole slant where writers were all "look at these motherfuckers responsible for the modern world! one of the major problems is the STEM dudes and I loving Love Science types, when looking at Mage, compare real-world technology to real-world "magic" and therefore take the Technocracy's side because real-world magic is ineffective and primitive and real-world technology is cool and useful. but this is a false way of looking at the fictional setting. somebody in the last thread said "Imagine a world without science as we know it. Go ahead - the technocracy vs. traditions is the Iphone versus carrier pigeons. It's a Barbecue Grill versus a firepit, Pills versus leeches and bleedings. They have made life better." but Technocracy vs. Traditions isn't "iphone vs. carrier pigeon." It's an iphone vs. some kind of crazy rear end VR device that has more functionality than an iphone plus is way cooler and lets you physically enter the internet and also probably isn't manufactured by industrial slaves. it's a barbeque grill vs. just cooking your meat instantly and perfectly every time by sprinkling a dash of powdered sulfur on it and speaking a bit of Latin. it's pills, vs. leeches and bleedings that cure cancer and HIV. in the end (and as a failing of oMage when you think about it) both the Technocracy and the Traditions are doing the exact same thing in different ways and both their means are equally true and effective, all other things being equal. the difference is that the Technocracy are dangerously delusional about what is it that they're doing, as well as being fascist elitists in a paranoid bureaucracy who use torture, brainwashing and murder as a matter of course, have built a violent, spiritually dead and inequal world, and cannot countenance the existence of other paradigms. (which, again, are all equally true, valid and effective, and this is known at higher levels of the leadership.) the Traditions and individuals within them have problems, even serious problems, but they are generally much more tolerant, open, free and multicultural and not openly dedicated to the destruction by any means of anyone who's different. that's the difference.
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May 21, 2015 02:33
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A lot of people seem to miss the whole fact that the Technocracy's all about hegemonic power and control, even going so far as to marginalize minorities of all kinds simply for not fitting their almost Victorian ideals for humanity. A lot of geeks just see the ~Science~ and can't look past that at all. Edit: Basically, Tezzor posted:one of the major problems is the STEM dudes and I loving Love Science types, when looking at Mage, compare real-world technology to real-world "magic" and therefore take the Technocracy's side because real-world magic is ineffective and primitive and real-world technology is cool and useful. And that's not even mentioning that the individual Traditions have pro-technology subfactions, even Trads like the Verbena and Celestial Chorus. And that's not even neglecting the likes of the Virtual Adepts, who keep the idealistic democratic and egalitarian politics of the Craftmasons (before the rest of the Order of Reason purged them for not being on board with capitalism) alive. Pussy Cartel fucked around with this message at 02:36 on May 21, 2015 |
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May 21, 2015 02:33
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Phil Brucato has always hated the Traditions though. He loves Orphans and apparently now the Technocracy (? imo, mostly because Neil Degrasse Tyson etc.).
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May 21, 2015 02:36
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The thing with the Technocracy vs Traditions is that people bring in all kinds of assumptions from outside the game and then argue really passionately about what they think is true instead of what the books say. This gets worse as the line goes on and fan misunderstanding and retcons and genuine improvements all mix together to make a giant mess. Here's how things go: In the beginning, people didn't really know poo poo about magic. They all had their own theories and cultural teachings and applied them to magic and lived the life of stereotypical mages of their culture. That was simply how things were. If you're a Medicine Man, you do Medicine. No one was in control, no one knew that they were shaping reality through their belief. The time where the Traditions where in command that a lot of Mage fans like to argue about never occurred. The Mythic Ages of the early books were revealed to be complete bullshit by Sorcerer's Crusade and Dark Ages. The Order of Reason changed everything. They were the first to really grasp what they were really doing and decide to use their cosmic powers to make the world a better place. They also immediately hosed it up by attacking the guys who held different beliefs rather than demons and vampires. It makes sense: it's a very human reaction. You don't like the guys from the rival company, but you loving loathe marketing. But when people say the Order of Reason started good, they're kinda wrong: from the beginning it was a really flawed organization, who wanted to impose their religion (One God For Everyone is right there in their philosophy) and then proceeded to help the Western world conquer and exploit the poo poo out of everything else. They then became the Technocracy as they slowly purged the good elements from their group (the Craft-Masons, etc.) and became the embodiment of western hegemony and Capitalism. So it's normal that a lot of people identify with the Technocracy: they're a dark mirror of us. The other misconception about the Technocracy is that they don't do science. Science as we know it doesn't really exist in the WoD. It's all belief and manipulation of reality. The whole "fighting against the evils of drinking water" is a completely nonsensical argument within the framework of Ascension. The Etherites do science: they have a peer-reviewed magazine, they study the science of reality manipulation, they try to figure out how all the cosmology work and repeat experiments. The Hermetics kind of also do that in their own mystical way. The Technocracy doesn't do that: it decides what it wants to be true, and then murders or brainwash their way to that outcome. Edit: Beaten because I took too long to write.
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May 21, 2015 02:45
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MonsieurChoc posted:The other misconception about the Technocracy is that they don't do science. Science as we know it doesn't really exist in the WoD. It's all belief and manipulation of reality. The whole "fighting against the evils of drinking water" is a completely nonsensical argument within the framework of Ascension. The Etherites do science: they have a peer-reviewed magazine, they study the science of reality manipulation, they try to figure out how all the cosmology work and repeat experiments. The Hermetics kind of also do that in their own mystical way. The Technocracy doesn't do that: it decides what it wants to be true, and then murders or brainwash their way to that outcome. M20 actually makes this point really well. In talking about mages and how through growth they can learn to overcome the need for a focus, it points out that Technocrats (not technomancers, just Technocrats specifically) are not only incapable of moving past the tools, but they're so delusional and obsessed with a single frame of reference that they eventually turn things around so that they serve their tools, instead of the other way around. There's no mechanical effect for it, but it's there.
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May 21, 2015 02:47
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MonsieurChoc posted:The thing with the Technocracy vs Traditions is that people bring in all kinds of assumptions from outside the game and then argue really passionately about what they think is true instead of what the books say. This gets worse as the line goes on and fan misunderstanding and retcons and genuine improvements all mix together to make a giant mess. Really instead of phrasing it as "The Technocracy does magic but they think it's science" it's more accurate to say that the nine systems the Traditions call magic and the five systems the Technocracy calls science are all ways of approaching whatever you'd call the underlying thing they're actually doing.
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May 21, 2015 03:45
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Pope Guilty posted:Really instead of phrasing it as "The Technocracy does magic but they think it's science" it's more accurate to say that the nine systems the Traditions call magic and the five systems the Technocracy calls science are all ways of approaching whatever you'd call the underlying thing they're actually doing. That's true. But the point of my post wasn't to discuss who was right in-setting and how much, but rather to point out the most common misconceptions that often lead to another tired Tradition vs Technocracy flamewar.
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May 21, 2015 03:47
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Mexcillent posted:Phil Brucato has always hated the Traditions though. He loves Orphans and apparently now the Technocracy (? imo, mostly because Neil Degrasse Tyson etc.). Neil deGrasse Tyson owns, tho.
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May 21, 2015 03:55
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I will say that this discussion have elevated my view on Mage's setting a lot. Perhaps hearing about the setting from a computer science major is why I thought the Technocracy were a big anti-science message.
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May 21, 2015 04:21
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