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On one hand we have "bombings" that done minor damage to couple of empty libraries. On other we have bombings that killed 70 people. The fact that former considered worse or equivalent in Somethingawfuldotcom I/P thread, because Israel, is... business as usual I guess.
Lady Morgaga fucked around with this message at 22:29 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 22:26
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Lady Morgaga posted:On one hand we have "bombings" that done minor damage to couple of empty libraries. On other we have bombings that killed 70 people. The fact that former considered worse or equivalent in Somethingawfuldotcom I/P thread, because Israel, is... business as usual I guess. Maybe terrorism is bad categorically? And committing crimes that you then intend to blame on innocent parties is wretched? No one claimed equivalence, that is your own bizarre projection.
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May 22, 2015 22:35
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Jack of Hearts posted:Maybe terrorism is bad categorically? Jack of Hearts posted:And committing crimes that you then intend to blame on innocent parties is wretched? Jack of Hearts posted:No one claimed equivalence, that is your own bizarre projection.
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May 22, 2015 22:51
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Lady Morgaga posted:Maybe. So maybe terrorism isn't bad categorically? Are you an IRA supporter or something? Lady Morgaga posted:Maybe. Although some might say that what kind of crime you framing innocents for matters. I'd say with confidence that framing people for blowing up (more realistically, burning down) buildings is pretty abhorrent! Arson is a major crime. If the scheme had worked, innocent people would have suffered severe penalties. How is this a thing worth disputing?
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May 22, 2015 23:06
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Plek posted:Hey, how about loving off with this poo poo? These words have no meaning, and it looks like you might be trying to minimize the impact of the statements you are attaching them to. Particularly when you later refer to the "actual" bombing of Egyptian Jews, which might be seen as an implication that bombings aren't real unless they impact Jewish folk. It seems to me that that's exactly what he's trying to do. So I think it might be good for you two to respond to each other with specific numbers and then there can be an argument over substance instead of over weasel words and accusations there of. Lady Morgaga posted:On one hand we have "bombings" that done minor damage to couple of empty libraries. I don't see a reason for scare quotes around "bombings". There were, right? There were also additional ones planned, were there not? quote:On other we have bombings that killed 70 people. The fact that former considered worse or equivalent in Somethingawfuldotcom I/P thread, because Israel, is... business as usual I guess. Well, I am hoping that business is not going to be as usual here now that I'm taking a closer look at this thread. If you want to expand on the specifics here and cite sources about them, I'm sure you can help push this discussion to a more substantive level than this: Jack of Hearts posted:Maybe terrorism is bad categorically? Lady Morgaga posted:Maybe. Jack of Hearts posted:And committing crimes that you then intend to blame on innocent parties is wretched? Lady Morgaga posted:Maybe. Although some might say that what kind of crime you framing innocents for matters. Jack of Hearts posted:No one claimed equivalence, that is your own bizarre projection. Lady Morgaga posted:You are correct. No one claimed equivalence. To do that acknowledgement of the incident and admitting that the incident matters at all must come first. Start with what is the incident you are talking about, and maybe something informative can stem from discussing it in this context?
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May 22, 2015 23:07
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CommieGIR posted:Israel's new Deputy Foreign Minister came out and basically said what they are actually thinking: Anybody want to talk about this speech? Because hooooooly gently caress, sometimes it sounds like Netanyahu is the only thing standing between the Right Wing hardliners he's raised up and the power they need to enact their plans. Some attempt at partitioning/Annexing the West Bank seems inevitable at this point, with the next Prime Minister if this one won't risk it. Netanyahu looks like he might remain in power for a while longer, but who's best positioned to take the mantle of right wing leadership after him?
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May 22, 2015 23:10
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Dolash posted:Anybody want to talk about this speech? Because hooooooly gently caress, sometimes it sounds like Netanyahu is the only thing standing between the Right Wing hardliners he's raised up and the power they need to enact their plans. Some attempt at partitioning/Annexing the West Bank seems inevitable at this point, with the next Prime Minister if this one won't risk it. On the questionable upside, accelerationists apparently have Israel as a testing ground.
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May 22, 2015 23:44
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It seems to me that that's exactly what he's trying to do. So I think it might be good for you two to respond to each other with specific numbers and then there can be an argument over substance instead of over weasel words and accusations there of. Number of fatalities from the "Lavon affair": 0 Number of injured from the "Lavon affair": 1 (one conspirator had a bomb go off in his pocket) Number of fatalities from the 1948 Cairo bombings: 70 Number of injured from the 1948 Cairo bombings: 200 Plek posted:Hey, how about loving off with this poo poo? These words have no meaning, and it looks like you might be trying to minimize the impact of the statements you are attaching them to. Particularly when you later refer to the "actual" bombing of Egyptian Jews, which might be seen as an implication that bombings aren't real unless they impact Jewish folk. Fine, fair enough. Let's take your proposition that it would be prejudicial to suggest the moral value of the victims and the guilt attached to the perpetrators aren't equal for both cases. Please explain to us why we should view some minor property damage to a couple government buildings as the moral equivalent of the murder of 70 Egyptian Jews.
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May 23, 2015 00:31
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The Insect Court posted:Oh geez, not this again. I'll give you credit, it's slightly more uncommon than USS Liberty/Israeli art students/other shadowy Zionist conspiracy. But it's just as absurd. The fact that the second Google result for "Lavon affair" (after wikipedia) is a link to whatreallyhappened.com gives a pretty good sense of the sort of conspiracy theorists obsessed by it.
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May 23, 2015 01:21
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Every single post he makes drips with dishonesty and he does not deserve a response.
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May 23, 2015 01:25
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The Insect Court posted:
We shouldn't. My problem is that you are using language in such a way as to suggest the insignificance of the actions instead of actual information. If you had written in terms of actual damages, then I could understand your position, but as I do not know the specifics of what you were going on about, I could only infer that you were claiming that bombings impacting non-Jews were not important, but that bombings impacting Jews were. I may have come across harshly, and I apologize for that, but you really must include information with your statements and not rely on just adjectives to make your point, or else risk having people misinterpret your statements or intent.
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May 23, 2015 01:30
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Every single post he makes drips with dishonesty and he does not deserve a response. You are not required to respond to him if you think it's not worth your time, but this kind of post is not very helpful, either.
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May 23, 2015 01:37
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Dolash posted:Anybody want to talk about this speech? Because hooooooly gently caress, sometimes it sounds like Netanyahu is the only thing standing between the Right Wing hardliners he's raised up and the power they need to enact their plans. Some attempt at partitioning/Annexing the West Bank seems inevitable at this point, with the next Prime Minister if this one won't risk it. Yes, the sad irony of Israeli politics the past few years has been that Netanyahu has been the most moderate Likud figure for some time now.
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May 23, 2015 03:04
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Lum_ posted:Yes, the sad irony of Israeli politics the past few years has been that Netanyahu has been the most moderate Likud figure for some time now. Nah, that's Reuven Rivlin. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 03:17 on May 23, 2015 |
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May 23, 2015 03:08
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DarkCrawler posted:Nah, that's Reuven Rivlin. That's why he ended up as President, far away from any real power.  But he's a really amazing President after a string of bad to terrible ones.
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May 23, 2015 03:10
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The Insect Court posted:Number of fatalities from the "Lavon affair": 0 So where was this reasoning that body count is proportional to moral culpability during Protective Edge and Cast Lead?
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May 23, 2015 03:38
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The Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty Review Conference has failed to accomplish anything and actually rolled back come obligations according to reaching critical will although Haaretz is reporting that Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty Review Conference (which is just closing up) will finish by trying to organise a conference for next year to make the Middle East nuke free.quote:When the conference opened a month ago, Egypt submitted a proposal that would mandate holding the Mideast conference with or without Israeli agreement. Moreover, the Egyptian proposal would make Israel’s nuclear program the conference’s focus. I don't know what's more ridiculous, the NPTRC expectation that they can get the Middle East nuke free or Israel and the USA's statements that they are seriously trying to accomplish such a goal.
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May 23, 2015 12:04
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Holy poo poo this new Israeli cabinet: http://www.alternet.org/world/prime-sinister-new-faces-netanyahus-new-israeli-government Literal anti-miscegenation activists, these people are so far loving gone lol
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May 23, 2015 13:09
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tekz posted:Holy poo poo this new Israeli cabinet: http://www.alternet.org/world/prime-sinister-new-faces-netanyahus-new-israeli-government quote:In his previous capacity as Deputy Religious Affairs Minister, Ben Dahan said that “a Jew always has a much higher soul than a goy,” and that Palestinians “are beasts, not humans.” jesus gently caress
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May 23, 2015 15:42
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Ayelet Shaked, Israeli justice minister posted:Enough with the oblique references… words have meanings… the entire Palestinian people is the enemy… they are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers… otherwise, more little snakes will be raised… This rhetoric sure sounds...familiar... 
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May 23, 2015 23:59
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These people are loathesome cunts to be sure but jesus christ I am tired of all the comparisons to the third reich.
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May 24, 2015 00:21
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Ultramega posted:These people are loathesome cunts to be sure but jesus christ I am tired of all the comparisons to the third reich. People can get back to me when Israel actually starts putting people on trains with these loving comparisons.
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May 24, 2015 01:06
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Ultramega posted:These people are loathesome cunts to be sure but jesus christ I am tired of all the comparisons to the third reich. If you say we must kill all of this ethnic group, than yes you do invite comparisons.
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May 24, 2015 01:24
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Does the comparison accomplish anything? What policy intervention is indicated by the Nazi comparison that is not otherwise indicated?
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May 24, 2015 01:46
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Genocide
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May 24, 2015 01:56
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Juffo-Wup posted:What policy intervention is indicated by the Nazi comparison that is not otherwise indicated? You don't negotiate or compromise with Nazis, you wipe them out. You don't try to understand their concerns, you crush them completely. And naturally, anyone who dares defend the Nazis is scum unworthy of a response. I think that's the goal of the constant Godwinning. There are serious scholars who assert that Nazi/Hitler comparisons are de facto a form of anti-semitism, although I wouldn't go quite that far. Most people online who rant about the evil Nazi Israelis aren't engaging in a real attempt at analysis, they're just blowing off steam against the hated Zionists, just as not every  ranting about the "thugs" and the coming revolution are actually white supremacist domestic terrorists, even if their rhetoric reflects the influence of extreme ideologies.
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May 24, 2015 02:01
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Disinterested posted:People can get back to me when Israel actually starts putting people on trains with these loving comparisons. Genocide escalates over time. The Nazis did not sit around in 1932 designing gas chambers. Israel's genocidal behavior has continuously escalated over the past 15 years or so and unless something drastic happens they will eventually go "all the way", just like many other genocidal regimes including the United States before them. The Insect Court posted:right-wing>>> Woolie Wool fucked around with this message at 02:03 on May 24, 2015 |
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May 24, 2015 02:01
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Woolie Wool posted:Genocide escalates over time. The Nazis did not sit around in 1932 designing gas chambers. Israel's genocidal behavior has continuously escalated over the past 15 years or so and unless something drastic happens they will eventually go "all the way", just like many other genocidal regimes including the United States before them. Well until then why don't we hold off on inane Nazi metaphors.
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May 24, 2015 02:03
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Yeah I can't see any downside in waiting until people are being systematically killed.
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May 24, 2015 02:06
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Disinterested posted:Well until then why don't we hold off on the played, insane Nazi metaphors. Because the entire goddamn point of repeatedly teaching people about the rise of Nazi Germany is to stop any similar groups from starting before "they start putting people on trains"?
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May 24, 2015 02:08
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Yeah I can't see any downside in waiting until people are being systematically killed. Perhaps the only weapon in the arsenal of people who want to prevent genocide isn't hamfisted historical equivalence? Nazi comparisons are not helpful to discussions like these and even less helpful in the academy and in the media at large because they unnecessarily cloud, clutter, and render controversial arguments that should aim to be objective and clear.
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May 24, 2015 02:12
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Considering that the Holocaust is used constantly by the Israeli right as fuel for their Islamophobic and xenophobic paranoia, I think pointing out that they're well on their way to recreating the thing they are supposedly trying to prevent is entirely valid. Waiting until they're actually killing people is far, far too late to start doing something about an oncoming genocide. uninterrupted posted:Because the entire goddamn point of repeatedly teaching people about the rise of Nazi Germany is to stop any similar groups from starting before "they start putting people on trains"?
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May 24, 2015 02:12
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Disinterested posted:Perhaps the only weapon in the arsenal of people who want to prevent genocide isn't hamfisted historical equivalence? Nazi comparisons are not helpful to discussions like these and even less helpful in the academy and in the media at large because they unnecessarily cloud, clutter, and render controversial arguments that should aim to be objective and clear. The supremacist rhetoric coming from the highest ranks of the Israeli government closely mirrors that of Nazi Germany. Be upset at the people who espouse this rhetoric, not the people that point it out.
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May 24, 2015 02:17
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uninterrupted posted:The supremacist rhetoric coming from the highest ranks of the Israeli government closely mirrors that of Nazi Germany. Be upset at the people who espouse this rhetoric, not the people that point it out. I can be upset at lovely rhetoric and also point out that the other side of the argument is very bad at putting its best foot forward.
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May 24, 2015 02:19
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Woolie Wool posted:Waiting until they're actually killing people is far, far too late to start doing something about an oncoming genocide. But what is that something? And can it be defended as good foreign policy on its own merits, independently of the strength of whatever historical analogy?
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May 24, 2015 02:19
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Boycott, divestment, and sanctions are a good start--they did a lot of good in crippling the apartheid regime in South Africa. All foreign military aid by the West to Israel should be cut off and heavy tariffs or even outright embargoes placed on Israeli goods. Western entertainers and sports teams should not perform in Israel.
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May 24, 2015 02:21
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Woolie Wool posted:Boycott, divestment, and sanctions are a good start--they did a lot of good in crippling the apartheid regime in South Africa. All foreign military aid by the West to Israel should be cut off and heavy tariffs or even outright embargoes placed on Israeli goods. Hey, it turns out we're in agreement. That all sounds like a good idea, and that conclusion doesn't apparently rest on the Israeli regime being a gang of Nazis.
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May 24, 2015 02:23
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Juffo-Wup posted:Does the comparison accomplish anything? What policy intervention is indicated by the Nazi comparison that is not otherwise indicated? Extreme Irony.
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May 24, 2015 02:27
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These specific people claiming that an entire ethnic group is categorically inferior and malevolent and should be completely exterminated? They merit Nazi comparisons. The rhetoric isn't too dissimilar. Extrapolating that to calling an entire nation Nazis because of the words of a few members is somewhat Godwinny, though.
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May 24, 2015 02:28
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Main Paineframe posted:These specific people claiming that an entire ethnic group is categorically inferior and malevolent and should be completely exterminated? They merit Nazi comparisons. The rhetoric isn't too dissimilar. Extrapolating that to calling an entire nation Nazis because of the words of a few members is somewhat Godwinny, though. I think that's an appropriate view on balance. My point aside from the aptness of the Nazi thing though is that it is simply never worth invoking the Nazi's in a discussion of Israel for any reason because, regardless of the content of your argument, you are then having a discussion about the appropriateness of that comparison instead of about the situation in Israel. Particularly since historic definitions of anti-Semitism have explicitly included comparisons of Israel with Nazi Germany. It is simply a dumb thing to do if you are interested in furthering the discourse on the subject in a broader context because it's a great way to give your opponent free ammunition and turn the whole argument in to white noise. I have watched this happen on panel debates and in the press on this subject a lot.
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May 24, 2015 02:30
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