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JeffersonClay posted:And now we're back to arguing with people who think the economy runs on unicorn farts. our currency is backed by confidence, the economy is literally run on unicorn farts and power perceptions. is this your first day?
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Jun 4, 2015 20:20
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Spaceman Future! posted:our currency is backed by confidence, the economy is literally run on unicorn farts and power perceptions. MMT is voodoo economic claptrap to him so don't expect him to understand this.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:22
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JeffersonClay posted:You can legislate a minimum wage. You can't legislate that companies hire employees at a loss. I'm sorry if reality gives you bad feelies but a minimum wage increase is likely to result in john's unemployment. The fun part about not hiring at a loss is that there is a floor beyond which a company simply cannot operate because they lack sufficient labor to perform their necessary functions. You know what we call refusing to make a profit because you could make a much larger profit if only those pesky real world limitations weren't in the way? Magical thinking. You should be familiar with it by now.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:24
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i'd imagine your lack of real world experience comes from the fact that you are insufferably hairy, and smell really bad, and therefore in the few meaningless jobs you've had all the attractive women who work there constantly laugh at you behind your back. isn't this not true? I commend you on finally writing an insult that was not just a lazy slur of oppressed people. Kudos. BI NOW GAY LATER posted:
Wow you mean Janitors actually perform a task which has value for an organization? ElCondemn posted:Do you know anything about operational costs? I have a whole department that's just bleeding money, yet they keep us around for some stupid reason. Maybe it's because the work we do is necessary for the company to function, the value we add is negative, we cost money. Other employees make up the difference in production to keep us working though, it's so confusing, this business thing. Do you honestly think the only jobs which are productive are the ones that involve a net positive financial interaction? Are the cashiers at McDonalds the only productive ones? Why not just fire all the cooks, it's not like they're making any money. I guess other people don't think cleaning the tables or the bathrooms actually help make McDonalds money either, so you're not alone in this idiocy.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:25
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The university I work for is doing this and I hate it. And I hate whoever came up with it. I don't want to take my trash out.
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i am oppressive towards extremely hairy people
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Jun 4, 2015 20:25
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JeffersonClay posted:Employers are deciding the value of productivity because they're the ones making hiring decisions. I agree that attempts by the government to appropriately subsidize the wages of low-productivity workers is and would be fraught with difficulty. But the minimum wage is already dictating the cost of labor to companies, I'm sure there are plenty of jobs people are doing today that employers would love to pay less than minimum wage for. It doesn't follow that the current minimum wage is ok, but lowering or raising it isn't.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:26
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JeffersonClay posted:I commend you on finally writing an insult that was not just a lazy slur of oppressed people. Kudos. You have totally missed the point entirely. Also you are now lazily using the word "value" whereas before you were using it strictly.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:26
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JeffersonClay posted:Do you honestly think the only jobs which are productive are the ones that involve a net positive financial interaction? Are the cashiers at McDonalds the only productive ones? Why not just fire all the cooks, it's not like they're making any money. I guess other people don't think cleaning the tables or the bathrooms actually help make McDonalds money either, so you're not alone in this idiocy. lol JC can't even keep his own arguments straight he's just desperately trying to prove to an entire thread of haters that He is Right and They are all Bad and Wrong
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Jun 4, 2015 20:27
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JeffersonClay posted:Wow you mean Janitors actually perform a task which has value for an organization? The problem is that you see the disabled as valueless, but not economically valueless?
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Jun 4, 2015 20:28
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JeffersonClay posted:Wow you mean Janitors actually perform a task which has value for an organization? subjective value and monetary value are two different concepts but its fun to watch you attempt to interchange them to suit your argument even though they are polar opposites.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:29
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JeffersonClay posted:Wow you mean Janitors actually perform a task which has value for an organization? I already said that, dumbass.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:29
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I already said that, dumbass. he is trying to equate your unhappiness about taking the garbage out with a precise monetary amount of value for the staff that supports you, which is hilarious because that would mean that there is a hard budgetary curve for effective employee morale. Someone call guiness, a rando in the min wage thread solved happiness at work, turns out its a graph with no numbers.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:32
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Popular Thug Drink posted:lol JC can't even keep his own arguments straight he's just desperately trying to prove to an entire thread of haters that He is Right and They are all Bad and Wrong He's trying to figure out a way that he was right all along and we were all being stupid. So even when he's wrong, he's actually right because his argument did a 180.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:32
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the real question, if you hire a clown to boost morale for the office, which is worth more per hour. a standard clown or a clown with downs lets not forget to figure in the public backlash if they find out someone laughed at the downs guy but what if theres suddenly a meme about downs clowns, the value of the downs clowns can only go up!
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Jun 4, 2015 20:36
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Spaceman Future! posted:he is trying to equate your unhappiness about taking the garbage out with a precise monetary amount of value for the staff that supports you, which is hilarious because that would mean that there is a hard budgetary curve for effective employee morale. Someone call guiness, a rando in the min wage thread solved happiness at work, turns out its a graph with no numbers. I mean, there is an amount of productivity you could math out that I would gain by someone else taking my own trash out (across the board) and see what the equates to versus their salaries. Which, iirc, has actually been mathed out by someone and they've found that, shock shock, its a hell of a lot cheaper even with any loss of productivity and that, long term, we get over such things as being annoyed that we're taking our own garbage out, so why pay someone whatever they pay janitors now to do it.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:39
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I am sorry John, we will only keep you on if you wear this suit and these big shoes. That's just life in Obama's America.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:39
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Spaceman Future! posted:the real question, if you hire a clown to boost morale for the office, which is worth more per hour. a standard clown or a clown with downs I need to see this data in graph form.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:40
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Spaceman Future! posted:the real question, if you hire a clown to boost morale for the office, which is worth more per hour. a standard clown or a clown with down im down to surround the town with downs clowns
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Jun 4, 2015 20:41
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jeffersonclay heard about third world beggars who will cripple themselves to increase their begging credential and immediately thought about how this is identical to the minimum wage
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Jun 4, 2015 20:41
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I mean, there is an amount of productivity you could math out that I would gain by someone else taking my own trash out (across the board) and see what the equates to versus their salaries. Which, iirc, has actually been mathed out by someone and they've found that, shock shock, its a hell of a lot cheaper even with any loss of productivity and that, long term, we get over such things as being annoyed that we're taking our own garbage out. yes but these numbers are subjective to your organization, there is no minimum or maximum established effectiveness to that staff that can be applied nation wide, but there are minimum standards of living that we keep as a society because if you let your neighbor turn to poo poo you live next to a poo poo hole. Which is why you apply those minimums evenly, since even though each industry varies in how much fat they can trim your cost of living does not lower even if your employer is willing to make extra sacrifices for profit. We didnt used to have this system, when children were used to stick their tiny little hands into the machinery. Why shouldn't little Timmy get a fair wage to his size and ability to offset the cost of his own raising?
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Jun 4, 2015 20:43
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Spaceman Future! posted:yes but these numbers are subjective to your organization, there is no minimum or maximum established effectiveness to that staff that can be applied nation wide, but there are minimum standards of living that we keep as a society because if you let your neighbor turn to poo poo you live next to a poo poo hole. Which is why you apply those minimums evenly, since even though each industry varies in how much fat they can trim your cost of living does not lower even if your employer is willing to make extra sacrifices for profit. I am not disagreeing with you  Spaceman Future! posted:We didnt used to have this system, when children were used to stick their tiny little hands into the machinery. Why shouldn't little Timmy get a fair wage to his size and ability to offset the cost of his own raising? Frankly, why we keeping Timmy from working? Imagine how much more stronger our economy would be if we could have child labor, and thus compete with China and Vietnam.
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Jun 4, 2015 20:46
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It's pretty funny that jeffersonclay wants to pretend he cares about oppressed minorities when he doesn't even think it's possible for them to ever produce enough value for a company to earn a minimum wage. So progressive of him!
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Jun 4, 2015 20:48
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:I am not disagreeing with you I know, Im expounding  BI NOW GAY LATER posted:Frankly, why we keeping Timmy from working? Imagine how much more stronger our economy would be if we could have child labor, and thus compete with China and Vietnam. this is my question too. If the example we are supposed to be working from is the man with the addled brain of a 5 year old, why are we not also working the 5 year old? What is the effective difference between the mentally disabled and children in this justification? Why are we lifting exceptions on one and not the other? Both have a cost of living. I mean this is why we have regulations and minimums, because exploitation bad, but if exploitation now good then.. why are there lines? Spaceman Future! fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 20:49
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Who What Now posted:It's pretty funny that jeffersonclay wants to pretend he cares about oppressed minorities when he doesn't even think it's possible for them to ever produce enough value for a company to earn a minimum wage. So progressive of him! It's really strange because he could argue that "Well, because businesses are evil and would like to maximize their ability to make money, the government has produce incentives for them to hire disabled individuals, since given free choice they would hire the person capable of being the most productive" and then couch the incentive being "that they can pay them less than min. wage." But well,
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Jun 4, 2015 20:51
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JeffersonClay posted:I never claimed the model was actually data, i claimed the model was informed by data, that it represented data. You seem to think that there's a really important distinction between data and information which informs a model. Fine. I'm happy to concede that the graph contains no data about what the effects of any specific minimum wage level would be. I never claimed it did. That's why the axes are unlabeled. Yes, I do, and any scientist, social or exact, doing any kind of statistics also thinks that this is the case. So you may want to update the way you're presenting your arguments if you want to be taken seriously. quote:No, because that graph was never intended to actually calculate any actual effects of minimum wage changes, only to describe visually a relationship between overall welfare and the minimum wage that literally everyone except Elcondemn agrees must be true. I absolutely reject that it "must" be true. As do many here. Not just because it has no room for rate of increase or rate of inflation, but because, as I've mentioned before, there's the whole issue of black market in labor which further complicates things. You have to argue for this model using data. Current data, meanwhile, as has been explained to you, has shown that overall there is no effect on unemployment or inflation, which seems to suggest that it only increases welfare as has been implemented so far. The behavior may well change in various ways if the rate of increase is too high or if it's too sudden, but there is no data to support your model of how that change will go, and again, your model doesn't even have rates. 
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Jun 4, 2015 21:14
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Raskolnikov38 posted:MMT is voodoo economic claptrap to him so don't expect him to understand this. Jeffersonclay doesn't understand [fringe heterodox economic theory] so that's why he doesn't believe in an economy powered by wishes and dreams. euphronius posted:You have totally missed the point entirely. Did you think I was using some pedantic Marxist definition of value? I wasn't. Spaceman Future! posted:subjective value and monetary value are two different concepts but its fun to watch you attempt to interchange them to suit your argument even though they are polar opposites. What is this nonsense? I'm talking about economic value in every case. Spaceman Future! posted:this is my question too. If the example we are supposed to be working from is the man with the addled brain of a 5 year old, why are we not also working the 5 year old? What is the effective difference between the mentally disabled and children in this justification? Why are we lifting exceptions on one and not the other? Both have a cost of living. Why would we choose to treat a man with an intellectual disability any differently than a 5 year old child? Is actually a really insulting question. Things men with intellectual disabilities should be able to do that 5 year olds should not: Get a Job Get Married Have Sex Choose where to live, what to eat, and how to spend their time BI NOW GAY LATER posted:It's really strange because he could argue that "Well, because businesses are evil and would like to maximize their ability to make money, the government has produce incentives for them to hire disabled individuals, since given free choice they would hire the person capable of being the most productive" and then couch the incentive being "that they can pay them less than min. wage." That is exactly what I think! What leads you to believe I think anything different? Who What Now posted:It's pretty funny that jeffersonclay wants to pretend he cares about oppressed minorities when he doesn't even think it's possible for them to ever produce enough value for a company to earn a minimum wage. So progressive of him! Some disabled people do not produce enough value for a company to earn a minimum wage right now. Raising the minimum wage will only exacerbate the issue. Raising it high enough will start to exclude non-disabled people. Being an advocate for the disabled does not mean pretending their disabilities do not limit them in any way.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:25
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JeffersonClay posted:Do you honestly think the only jobs which are productive are the ones that involve a net positive financial interaction? Are the cashiers at McDonalds the only productive ones? Why not just fire all the cooks, it's not like they're making any money. I guess other people don't think cleaning the tables or the bathrooms actually help make McDonalds money either, so you're not alone in this idiocy. I really don't mean to embarrass you but cooks do provide value in the form of product. There are however many jobs that have an operational cost to them but only a functional value to the rest of the organization (ie. no monetary value). A janitor is actually a really good example of this, it's a cost that companies are willing to pay but that doesn't necessarily increase profits. Also I think it's funny that you agree janitors are providing "value", but not economic value. Yet you're arguing hiring a disabled person doesn't provide economic value, but also no "value".
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Jun 4, 2015 21:29
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JeffersonClay posted:That is exactly what I think! What leads you to believe I think anything different? You're woeful ability to properly communicate it. And if that is the case, you do know there are other ways to incentive businesses to do things that aren't actively harmful to workers, right? BI NOW GAY LATER fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 21:29
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Hear that cripples? JeffersonClay is dropping the truthbombs that you'll never produce anything of value when compared to a normal person! Just accept that you're a lesser being and take your $2/hr!
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Jun 4, 2015 21:29
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JeffersonClay posted:Did you think I was using some pedantic Marxist definition of value? I wasn't. You just literally agreed that janitors don't provide economic value to a business, their only value is that they keep the toilets clean. That is not economic value, they bring in no profit and provide no means for others to earn profit for a company.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:31
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yes, I do, and any scientist, social or exact, doing any kind of statistics also thinks that this is the case. So you may want to update the way you're presenting your arguments if you want to be taken seriously. I'm not attempting to do statistics here, either. quote:I absolutely reject that it "must" be true. As do many here. Not just because it has no room for rate of increase or rate of inflation, but because, as I've mentioned before, there's the whole issue of black market in labor which further complicates things. You have to argue for this model using data. Current data, meanwhile, as has been explained to you, has shown that overall there is no effect on unemployment or inflation, which seems to suggest that it only increases welfare as has been implemented so far. The behavior may well change in various ways if the rate of increase is too high or if it's too sudden, but there is no data to support your model of how that change will go, and again, your model doesn't even have rates. Haha oh man. So your answer to the question "what will happen if the minimum wage is 15b/s" is "it could be good for the economy"? I guess two people are making that argument now.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:34
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Use the disabled as toilets and we won't have to hire janitors.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:35
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JeffersonClay posted:I'm not attempting to do statistics here, either. Whenever you are trying to argue from or from models about data you are doing statistics. You may only choose to do it well or poorly. quote:Haha oh man. So your answer to the question "what will happen if the minimum wage is 15b/s" is "it could be good for the economy"? I guess two people are making that argument now. My answer to the question "what will happen if the minimum wage is 15b/s?" is "either we are talking in Zimbabwe dollars or this is so far afield from the range in which we are discussing to be irrelevant".
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Jun 4, 2015 21:38
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JeffersonClay posted:fringe heterodox economic MMT is neither fringe nor heterodox, just because the concept of money having power based on trust blows your mind doesn't mean its wrong.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Whenever you are trying to argue from or from models about data you are doing statistics. You may only choose to do it well or poorly. While also being pedantic about it!
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Jun 4, 2015 21:40
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ElCondemn posted:You just literally agreed that janitors don't provide economic value to a business, their only value is that they keep the toilets clean. That is not economic value, they bring in no profit and provide no means for others to earn profit for a company. Jesus christ. The Janitor DOES provide economic value. A McDonalds makes more money when the bathrooms and tables are clean than when they are dirty. An office is more productive when it is neat than when it is dirty and oppressive. This isn't a binary choice. Say a McDonalds currently hires 60hr/wk in Janitor services. They know that if they reduce that to 40hr/wk, and end up with a dirtier restaurant, they would stand to lose some money in sales. If a minimum wage hike increases the cost of labor above the value to McDonalds of having a cleaner restaurant, they'll choose to maximize profits by lowering hours. That's how John loses his part-time janitor job.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:My answer to the question "what will happen if the minimum wage is 15b/s?" is "either we are talking in Zimbabwe dollars or this is so far afield from the range in which we are discussing to be irrelevant". Rather than wasting time with this sloppy dodge, let's assume that you are reasonable and believe that a 15b/s minimum wage would not be good for the poor. So you agree that there must be some point where the minimum wage can be too high, and therefore some point where value is maximized and some point where the negatives overwhelm the positives. So you don't disagree with the graph I made at all. Glad I could illuminate things for you.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:47
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At some point, if the minimum wage is too high, raw sewage will flow from all toliets. Is this the future you want your kids to live in?
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Jun 4, 2015 21:47
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Raskolnikov38 posted:MMT is neither fringe nor heterodox, just because the concept of money having power based on trust blows your mind doesn't mean its wrong. The concept of money having power based on trust is not magical thinking, either. The suggestion the government can run massive budget deficits indefinitely with no negative consequences is, however.
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Jun 4, 2015 21:49
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Raskolnikov38 posted:MMT is neither fringe nor heterodox, just because the concept of money having power based on trust blows your mind doesn't mean its wrong.
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