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Perhaps it's really Mario who's the Beast. After all, only a sick, sadistic mind could come up with Mario Party.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:23
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"What if you are the real monster?" "We are. But unlike you, we have a purpose beyond self-gratification. We were made to keep the spirit and flesh worlds in order, and you're loving up both. Now die." "What if you are the real mons-" "Bitch, I work for the Federal Government, we're you on a global scale!"
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Jun 7, 2015 18:28
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Kavak posted:"What if you are the real mons-" "Bitch, I work for the Federal Government, we're you on a global scale!" Don't mind me, just quoting this again now that the context is EVEN BETTER for it. Boogaleeboo posted:But conversely, the VASCU is the FBI. Like ok, you'll have to deal with some crazy magic poo poo, but you'll be trying to put it into jail. You are a real agent, you have a real badge. And again, it's magic jail, but jail. And sometimes it's some crazy rear end mutant that is eating people and making clothes out of their skin and you have to put it down, but it's never really the objective. You'll do paperwork about it, and you'll have to deal with assholes at TFV taking over cases, and you are in all ways just a 'regular' agent. And a lot of the time you'll just get roped into regular everyday cases. And it's somewhat of an open secret what you do at the FBI, and wider agencies and local law enforcement know if you have an....interesting case this is who you call. In so many ways their job is really only as disturbing as people that have to deal with regular serial killers and kidnapping cases, which isn't exactly a picnic.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:35
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It seems clear to me that Beast is what happens when humanity gets together and dreams up a collective concept of what constitutes a 'monster.' It's why their transgressions range from the petty to the truly monstrous; they represent human fears and frustrations of all stripes ranging from getting cut off in traffic to getting their hands cut off. The Dark Mother isn't the mother of all monsters, she's the platonic expression of what a monster is. If anything, Vampires, ,Werewolves, et al are responsible for Beasts, since real monsters have inspired humanity to dream up ideas about monsters based on legends drawn from real events. Heroes, by contrast, are what the monsters dreamed up instead.
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Jun 7, 2015 18:35
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tatankatonk posted:I FOUND IT It's... beautiful. 
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Jun 7, 2015 18:49
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Mendrian posted:The Dark Mother isn't the mother of all monsters, she's the platonic expression of what a monster is. If anything, Vampires, ,Werewolves, et al are responsible for Beasts, since real monsters have inspired humanity to dream up ideas about monsters based on legends drawn from real events. Yeah. Everything Beasts do is fakery and showmanship. It's ridiculous to claim that they're the originals and vampires/werewolves/etc the derivatives rather than vice versa. What what the monster wants is for you to be scared of it - rather than to actually physically eat you or whatever - is something a human comes up with after the fact.
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Jun 7, 2015 19:43
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Mormon Star Wars posted:I'm still chuckling at the idea of a Beast taking the book's recommended path of trying to make hunters question themselves by turning the question of who the real monster is on them. Actually, the book says that Beasts are special, because instead of going "maybe it's you who's the real monster?" like all those other square supernaturals, they go "what gives you the right to kill me?". Which is really dumb. Hunter Alice: "I'm here to kill you, Beast." Beast Bob: "What gives you the right?" Alice: "The right to what?" Bob: "What gives you the right to kill me?" Alice: "You killed three people!" Bob: "But you're going to kill me now." Alice: "You killed three people for not tipping. You tortured five others because you felt like it. You've kidnapped children and abandoned them in the woods." Bob: "But does that give you the right to kill me?" Alice: "Yes!" Bob: "And where does that right come from?" Alice: "Well, strictly speaking, rights are deontological, and the reason I'm killing you is to reduce your capacity for harm, which is more of a utilitarian argument. I guess you could say that my right to kill you comes from the premise that actions that increase the amount of goodness in the world are inherently moral, and therefore allowable and 'right' in a society." Bob: "Uh... but... uh... um..." Abigail, Alice's player: "See, I told you Academics 4 (Moral Philosophy) would come in handy when fighting monsters."
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Jun 7, 2015 21:01
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LatwPIAT posted:Actually, the book says that Beasts are special, because instead of going "maybe it's you who's the real monster?" like all those other square supernaturals, they go "what gives you the right to kill me?". Which is really dumb. Hahaha. As an oWoD fan, I am just saying that none of this would be a problem if they had just secretly updated Bygone Beastiary to the modern World of Darkness system.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:12
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LatwPIAT posted:Alice: "Well, strictly speaking, rights are deontological, and the reason I'm killing you is to reduce your capacity for harm, which is more of a utilitarian argument. I guess you could say that my right to kill you comes from the premise that actions that increase the amount of goodness in the world are inherently moral, and therefore allowable and 'right' in a society." Now I really, really want to see academic philosophers in Null Mysteriis having a slapfight over this sort of thing like that webcomic about existentialist philosophers debating over mundane poo poo like Candyland.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:15
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You know, beyond all the extremely problematic content, there's another very good reason that Beast fails as a line - it's central premise, that Beasts keep humanity connected to the ~Primordial Dream~, and do so by making people terrified/victimized, is already something that other splats do. The Lancea Sanctum, the Hunters in Darkness, the Autumn Court/Scarecrow Ministry, etc; every splat already has a group whose schtick is essentially "Humans need to be scared shitless, for their own good." Beyond being just juvenile trashy garbage, it's loving recycled juvenile trashy garbage. It's a single faction concept trying desperately to shoulder the weight of an entire game-line.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:38
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Punting posted:You know, beyond all the extremely problematic content, there's another very good reason that Beast fails as a line - it's central premise, that Beasts keep humanity connected to the ~Primordial Dream~, and do so by making people terrified/victimized, is already something that other splats do. Beasts just do it for the goodtummyfeel.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:53
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:And of those, notably the Hunters in Darkness and Scarecrow Ministry are ostensibly actually scaring people away from far worse poo poo than "guy cosplaying as hook hand killer," like the actual straight up True Fae. One of my favorite PCs I've ever played was a Scarecrow Minister, who set himself up as a local Bigfoot style mythical Lobsterman on an island in the city bay (it's Maine, weird poo poo happens in Maine.) This attracted bigfoot hunter type people for a little while until they realized that everybody who went near the island came back in a boat full of gouge marks raving about shapes in the water. Anyone stupid/persistent enough to set foot on the island itself were lucky if they got to leave without serious mental trauma and a permanent fear of crustaceans. The island eventually got a reputation as haunted/cursed/full of the spookies, and sailors just avoided the entire thing, taking the long way if they had to. This was because the island itself was a Trod crawling with ways to accidentally fall into the Hedge, and a semi-regular history of True Fae coming along to trawl for people who got caught in the Hedge-sea. Lobsterman was a victim of his island once, and had to abandon a dozen or more people just like him to a dinner pot to escape. He stayed on the island for decades to make sure nobody else would ever have to suffer like that again, even if he had to make them suffer another way to do so. He waged a one-changeling terror war that ended up making the Trod wither to manageable levels due to neglect. He exploited people's worst fears, he destroyed hundreds of thousands of dollars of property in boats and equipment, he ruined livelihoods if he had to, and he even killed a few people who wouldn't get the loving hint when it was spelled out to them in plain English. His greatest weapon was fear, even as his greatest, constant fear was that he'd make a single mistake and let someone get Taken. He was a self-loathing alcoholic wreck for most of the game, until the other PCs coaxed him into letting him forgive himself. If he'd ever met a beast, his likely response would be to vent his considerable amounts of pent up anger and frustration at his Keeper at the conveniently familiar target, before throwing the mangled body to the scavengers on the seabed. And yet, RAW he'd be best buddies with a beast unless the beast actively started to dick with him, because they've got Poochie powers.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:20
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So has there been any official communication from Onyx Path since I left for Origins?
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Jun 7, 2015 22:23
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Matt's at Origins, too. He posted something earlier today saying he'd talk more with people about this when he gets back. Monday's gonna be interesting.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:27
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Wasn't sure if he was because I didn't see any of his games he usually runs. Actually, the one Demon game I was signed up for had a no-show GM which sucked.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:34
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Luminous Obscurity posted:Matt's at Origins, too. He posted something earlier today saying he'd talk more with people about this when he gets back. quote:It seems some of you have gotten confused, and are operating under the assumption that Beasts aren't the good guys of their game. So let me clear up some points of contention.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:41
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Okay, I just realized something. Maybe the PDF explains this, but, well, ignoring how terrible an idea Kinship and all that is already, it makes no sense in regards to Changelings. Like, it exists because, well, the Beasts are supposedly kin to the other monsters, as all monsters descend from them or something stupid like that. (Except Demons, and thus presumably the God-Machine and Angels too.) Except, Changelings aren't monsters, at least inherently; they became what they are via being taken by the Fae and tortured and abused and changed. Which means that any connection they have to the Beasts would be through their former captors and abusers. Beasts are the last people Changelings should like or trust, other than the Fair Folk themselves. Even ignoring the near-perfect similarities one can draw between the Fae and the Beasts, if a Changeling learns what they are they should be disgusted and horrified and respond immediately with fight or flight, not be buddy-buddy with these assholes. Wow, what an insufferable rear end in a top hat. I legitimately want less and less to do with OP and any of their products the more I read things he's said and done.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:42
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Roland Jones posted:
I think that was a jokepost about what he'll probably say.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:45
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Well guess what, if an exceedingly high number of people are having trouble seeing your characters as the good guys, maybe they are not as good as you think they are-
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Jun 7, 2015 22:46
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So, what, that's a leaked internal memo to everyone on the project? I mean, Jesus. Describing any WoD protagonist as 'the good guys' is an issue, isn't it?
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Jun 7, 2015 22:46
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Daeren posted:I think that was a jokepost about what he'll probably say. Ah, fair enough. Still, the rest of it stands, and what he has written on these subjects and other things I've found reading back in this thread do not inspire confidence. I was already unsold on buying Demon now that I have a little spare money before I read that.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:47
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Roland Jones posted:Ah, fair enough. Still, the rest of it stands, and what he has written on these subjects and other things I've found reading back in this thread do not inspire confidence. I was already unsold on buying Demon now that I have a little spare money before I read that. This is the vilest crime Beast has committed so far. Go get Demon if you can afford it, it owns so much and McFarland's work on it was pretty good (at least, I think, since I don't remember anything too terrible about it and the segments don't exactly come with labels.)
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Jun 7, 2015 22:48
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Roland Jones posted:Okay, I just realized something. Maybe the PDF explains this, but, well, ignoring how terrible an idea Kinship and all that is already, it makes no sense in regards to Changelings. Like, it exists because, well, the Beasts are supposedly kin to the other monsters, as all monsters descend from them or something stupid like that. (Except Demons, and thus presumably the God-Machine and Angels too.) Except, Changelings aren't monsters, at least inherently; they became what they are via being taken by the Fae and tortured and abused and changed. Which means that any connection they have to the Beasts would be through their former captors and abusers. Beasts are the last people Changelings should like or trust, other than the Fair Folk themselves. Even ignoring the near-perfect similarities one can draw between the Fae and the Beasts, if a Changeling learns what they are they should be disgusted and horrified and respond immediately with fight or flight, not be buddy-buddy with these assholes. It makes sense for exactly NONE of them. - Vampires already had multiple choice origins detailed in multiple books, like Mythologies. - Werewolves are half-spirit from the Shadow, which isn't at all where the Primordial Dream is. - Mages are not monsters, except in the same way horrible people are monsters. Their power come from the truth hidden in other dimensions which are, once again, different from where the Primordial Dream supposedly resides. - Prometheans are corpses brought back to life through strange alchemies and unholy power. Through the Qashmallim, it's hinted that they are animated by the forces of "The Principle", which might or might not be related to the God-Machine. If anything, they should be treated the same way Demons are. - Changeling you already talked about. - Mummies were created by evil necromancers from the beginning of history. They are perhaps the only one that could make sense, if the truth behind the necromancers is changed to fit BEast. Still an awkward fit. - Geist are people with a super-ghost inside of them keeping them alive after they should have died. No dreams or nightmares, just a super-ghost. None of them fit with Beast, or Beast's cosmology. Now, one could argue that Beasts simply believe that they are kin to other monsters, but the Kinship mechanics kind of go agaisnt that. Furthermore, none of the nWoD lines treat crossovers that way. It's an oWoD thing, where Werewolves though all the other supernaturals were creations of either the Wyrm, Weaver or Wyld, or Changelings thought all the other monsters were Fae who had forgotten their true nature. It's doesn't work in the nWoD.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:51
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Roland Jones posted:Ah, fair enough. Still, the rest of it stands, and what he has written on these subjects and other things I've found reading back in this thread do not inspire confidence. I was already unsold on buying Demon now that I have a little spare money before I read that. Yeah that was a joke post... not sure if your confusion is a good or bad thing. paradoxGentleman posted:Well guess what, if an exceedingly high number of people are having trouble seeing your characters as the good guys, maybe they are not as good as you think they are- At one point in the RPG.net thread I think he called everyone who didn't like beasts "heroes in training". I would not be surprised if he's banking on people internalizing the narrative. "Hey, mages like beasts, werewolves like beasts, they're cool people. You want to be a cool person too, right? Well then sounds like you better like beasts."
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Jun 7, 2015 22:53
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Also this thread is making me think that as well as Hunter, Changeling might very well be for me, too. It's basically normal people taken by hosed up horror faeries and turned into something inhuman who escape and try to stay escaped, while trying to deal with their trauma, yes?
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Jun 7, 2015 22:54
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Night10194 posted:Also this thread is making me think that as well as Hunter, Changeling might very well be for me, too. It's basically normal people taken by hosed up horror faeries and turned into something inhuman who escape and try to stay escaped, while trying to deal with their trauma, yes? That's the crux of it, yeah.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:55
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Night10194 posted:Also this thread is making me think that as well as Hunter, Changeling might very well be for me, too. It's basically normal people taken by hosed up horror faeries and turned into something inhuman who escape and try to stay escaped, while trying to deal with their trauma, yes? Nailed it in one. There's some window dressing but that's the central conflict.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:55
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Daeren posted:Nailed it in one. There's some window dressing but that's the central conflict. Well, that sounds right up my alley.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:57
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Speaking purely for myself, but when writing Beast I followed the opinion that Beasts are full of poo poo, and basically have the same appropriating behavior toward other beings that fans (and the weaker freelancers) accuse mages of. But also that it didn't matter.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:58
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I am really digging Mage 20th Anniversary Edition. There are a few little niggles I have with it but the product as a whole is very well made. They really tried to clean up the magic rules and make it clear what you need to do what while keeping it true to the older editions, a task with herculean difficulty.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:58
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Daeren posted:This is the vilest crime Beast has committed so far. Go get Demon if you can afford it, it owns so much and McFarland's work on it was pretty good (at least, I think, since I don't remember anything too terrible about it and the segments don't exactly come with labels.) I know Demon is awesome. I've read some of it before and I was utterly in love with it. But reading things McFarland has written to/about his detractors and such, and just everything about Beast in general, has me not wanting to support him or Onyx Path because what the gently caress. Kurieg posted:Yeah that was a joke post... not sure if your confusion is a good or bad thing. Like this. What the gently caress.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:58
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Speaking purely for myself, but when writing Beast I followed the opinion that Beasts are full of poo poo, and basically have the same appropriating behavior toward other beings that fans (and the weaker freelancers) accuse mages of. But also that it didn't matter. I mean, that would make much more sense (and would make for a much interesting game-- "you're a scumbag who believes his own hype, own it" can be an interesting diversion sometimes).
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Jun 7, 2015 22:59
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Speaking purely for myself, but when writing Beast I followed the opinion that Beasts are full of poo poo, and basically have the same appropriating behavior toward other beings that fans (and the weaker freelancers) accuse mages of. But also that it didn't matter. You are a good person and a good writer and I'm sad that either wasn't the directorial leaning, or the writing didn't follow through on that. WHEN'S
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Jun 7, 2015 23:01
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Night10194 posted:Also this thread is making me think that as well as Hunter, Changeling might very well be for me, too. It's basically normal people taken by hosed up horror faeries and turned into something inhuman who escape and try to stay escaped, while trying to deal with their trauma, yes? Changeling is absolutely amazing, you more or less have the gist of it. Side note, but I noticed Changeling 2E seems to be operating on a reverse track of Beast, where the initial announcements were kind of worrying but as things progress I'm getting less and less worried and more interested in where they're taking it. Like the first draft stuff we've seen has been solid enough and Hill is being really open and conversational with people during the Open Dev stuff.
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Jun 7, 2015 23:04
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I mean, here's an example that's not about crossover with my gameline. So I wrote the Promethean page, which a lot of people hate because it establishes Beasts as being immune to Disquiet. Here was my thinking - Prometheans are inhuman, but (except for Centimani) want to be human. Disquiet is the emotional effect of their inhumanity seeping out, which they regard as a curse. Beasts are inhumanity cheerleaders. They don't see a problem with being inhuman, and don't understand why Prometheans want to be. They aren't affected by disquiet to reinforce that. In Promethean's case, we all know that that makes Beasts horribly condescending and misguided. We know Prometheans, and that the entire point of the game is the yearning to be human.
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Jun 7, 2015 23:18
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Dave Brookshaw posted:I mean, here's an example that's not about crossover with my gameline. So I wrote the Promethean page, which a lot of people hate because it establishes Beasts as being immune to Disquiet. That makes a truckload more sense when you put it that way.
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Jun 7, 2015 23:27
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I do like the implication that Beasts are the collective unconscious of humanity crying out for a savior, and Heroes are the collective consciousness of humanity going "Okay apparently we need to be slightly more specific."
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Jun 7, 2015 23:30
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Dave Brookshaw posted:I mean, here's an example that's not about crossover with my gameline. So I wrote the Promethean page, which a lot of people hate because it establishes Beasts as being immune to Disquiet. Funnily enough, that part made complete sense to me.
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Jun 7, 2015 23:37
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Kurieg posted:At one point in the RPG.net thread I think he called everyone who didn't like beasts "heroes in training". I would not be surprised if he's banking on people internalizing the narrative. "Hey, mages like beasts, werewolves like beasts, they're cool people. You want to be a cool person too, right? Well then sounds like you better like beasts." Got a link to that?
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Jun 7, 2015 23:42
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So I don't want to go wade through thousands of off-site forums posts. What do RPG.net and OPP forums think of Beast? Are these same issues being raised and taken seriously there, are they being raised and then smacked down by mods, or do they all love it?
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