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hobbesmaster posted:Because the Navy "abandoned" them on Midway and the Marines hired an advertising agency after the war to guilt trip the Navy ever since. This.....This is accurate.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:49
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paragon1 posted:Someone remind me why our navy's army get their own navy and airforce. Because they're designed to be a vertically integrated expeditionary force deployable in small numbers. The entire point of the modern Marine Corps is to have the capability to send a single MEU somewhere and have them be self sufficient. Now why this is a separate branch and not a specialized army division or two is a better question.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:10
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it's really funny that the french of all people seem to have made the best jet of this generation, using a programme that's mainly kept around for reasons of national pride
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Jun 8, 2015 15:33
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I'm confused the french didn't make the super hornet.
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Jun 8, 2015 15:37
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http://defensetech.org/2015/03/06/general-f-35-will-initially-lag-older-aircraft-in-close-air-support/ Has anyone posted the bit where CAS IOC won't be until 2021 at the earliest? When are the warthogs being retired?
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Jun 8, 2015 16:34
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hobbesmaster posted:Because the Navy "abandoned" them on Midway and the Marines hired an advertising agency after the war to guilt trip the Navy ever since. The Navy should have loving grown a pair and said that if they didn't have the courage to fight a war in tough conditions, they could go back home with the women and make shells. "You don't see the real men in Bastogne complaining, do you?"
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Jun 8, 2015 16:56
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hobbesmaster posted:Because the Navy "abandoned" them on Midway and the Marines hired an advertising agency after the war to guilt trip the Navy ever since. Don't you mean Wake Island and/or Guadalcanal? The Marines absolutely weren't "on their own" in Midway.
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Jun 8, 2015 16:56
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pointsofdata posted:http://defensetech.org/2015/03/06/general-f-35-will-initially-lag-older-aircraft-in-close-air-support/ That's not really what that article says.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:01
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pointsofdata posted:http://defensetech.org/2015/03/06/general-f-35-will-initially-lag-older-aircraft-in-close-air-support/ It is undecided, although there had been attempts before that time frame which would have meant the US wouldn't really have had a decent CAS aircraft. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if that 2021 date is pushed back considering everything else about the program.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:02
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mlmp08 posted:That's not really what that article says. Yes it is quote:Carlisle said the F-35A won’t initially be able to perform “advanced” close air support “because those are systems that are going to be coming onto the airplane in later blocks.” Until then cas features will be the gun (planned to enter initial service in a couple of years, the software doesn't work at the moment) and ???. For context the SDB-ii is already approved for the F-15 and will be in service for the super hornet before it is on the f35. distortion park fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 17:20
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gradenko_2000 posted:Don't you mean Wake Island and/or Guadalcanal? The Marines absolutely weren't "on their own" in Midway. Er yeah I meant Guadalcanal I have no idea why I typed Midway.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:28
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pointsofdata posted:Yes it is ...and literally anything else in the arsenal other then the SBD II?
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Jun 8, 2015 17:31
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So until then it won't have the gun (not ideal but frankly kind of meh when looking big picture), and it won't have the advanced SAR or a bomb that the A-10 doesn't have anyway. It will still do what most CAS is: dropping JDAMs and laser guided bombs on the enemy. Where it does lag is in having a wider variety of ordnance testing complete but the most important and useful bombs and missiles have been fast tracked. Maybe I'm missing something though.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:32
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Dilkington posted:Compared to what western naval fighter? pointsofdata posted:Rafale? F-35B has a larger combat radius than the aircraft it's replacing in the USMC and the Royal Navy. The C's is bigger than the Super Hornet's (how are those pylons working out for you?), and is comparable to the Rafale in similar configurations. The A will have about twice the range of the American F-16s it's replacing. There's a litany of things critique on the F-35, but range ain't one, especially if they actually get cleared for two 480gal tanks on the inner hardpoints.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:39
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Dilkington posted:Compared to what western naval fighter? Don't mind mimp, he's just butthurt. There was a posting in the GBS thread on this showing the ranges and versions of F-35. Aside from the VTOL needing to refuel after taking off, without external fuel tanks the f-35 was rather limited. Hence the joke they need carriers to extend the range out to the edge of their economic zone which is like 200 miles off shore
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Jun 8, 2015 17:44
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Dilkington posted:F-35B has a larger combat radius than the aircraft it's replacing in the USMC and the Royal Navy. He asked a question, and I answered it, and you don't really seem to disagree with my answer? Just that it isn't the worst?
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Jun 8, 2015 17:49
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Dilkington posted:F-35B has a larger combat radius than the aircraft it's replacing in the USMC and the Royal Navy. Are we comparing fully loaded F-35s to fully loaded F-16s/Hornets, with tanks on pylons and everything?
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Jun 8, 2015 17:51
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pointsofdata posted:Yes it is Dunno if it really matters since they can't slow down the plane for CAS without losing lift, and only have a short 3 second worth of ammunition for that gun. Not to mention the loiter time is really short. whether they retire the Warthog before or after the F-35 is capable, ground troops will still have what they do now when warthogs aren't around; Some guy in a plane that really doesn't care and drops a few bombs well out of the target area. Or, perhaps, Cobras/Apaches when the army realizes the new CAS is hosed
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Jun 8, 2015 17:56
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Internal fuel only.  F-35B continues to be the turd in the punch bowl.
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Jun 8, 2015 18:01
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hobbesmaster posted:I'm confused the french didn't make the super hornet. They did, it's a helicopter.
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Jun 8, 2015 18:06
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SocketWrench posted:Dunno if it really matters since they can't slow down the plane for CAS without losing lift, and only have a short 3 second worth of ammunition for that gun. Not to mention the loiter time is really short. whether they retire the Warthog before or after the F-35 is capable, ground troops will still have what they do now when warthogs aren't around; Some guy in a plane that really doesn't care and drops a few bombs well out of the target area. Or, perhaps, Cobras/Apaches when the army realizes the new CAS is hosed
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Jun 8, 2015 18:35
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm genuinely curious what you think performing a CAS mission actually consists of. He just snipes away with wrong bullshit and every time he gets called out he accuses other people of not having a sense of humor. It'd be a better gimmick in a less technical D&D thread.
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Jun 8, 2015 18:41
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Isn't the F-35 incompatible with the uplinks JTACs are using with the SNIPER and other modern pods? That mean would mean that it can't perform CAS as well.
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Jun 8, 2015 18:43
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hobbesmaster posted:Isn't the F-35 incompatible with the uplinks JTACs are using with the SNIPER and other modern pods? That mean would mean that it can't perform CAS as well.
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Jun 8, 2015 18:53
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I thought the F-35 couldn't mount sensor pods because of its internal sensor fusion thing.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:18
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Jarmak posted:Because they're designed to be a vertically integrated expeditionary force deployable in small numbers. The entire point of the modern Marine Corps is to have the capability to send a single MEU somewhere and have them be self sufficient. When did we last use the Marines in such a fashion? Genuine question.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:22
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Dead Reckoning posted:I'm genuinely curious what you think performing a CAS mission actually consists of. Some people have a hard on for strafing attacks I suppose.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:27
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hobbesmaster posted:I thought the F-35 couldn't mount sensor pods because of its internal sensor fusion thing. It's not in itself a source of incompatibility. There are other aircraft with internal sensor fusion and external pods.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:12
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pointsofdata posted:He asked a question, and I answered it, and you don't really seem to disagree with my answer? Just that it isn't the worst? I assume you meant to write "you." I asked "compared to what western naval fighter?" in response to: SocketWrench posted:Not the carrier range, they need the carriers to extend the range of the f-35 because the f-35 is so limited I thought SW was suggesting that the combat radius of the F-35, either the B or the C, was extraordinarily limited. I figured such a judgement only made sense in comparison to other naval fighters. As it turns out, compared to aircraft most similar to the f-35 (B/C) in terms of era and role, its combat radius isn't extraordinarily limited.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:12
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paragon1 posted:When did we last use the Marines in such a fashion? Somalia I think?
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Jun 8, 2015 22:00
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Raenir Salazar posted:Somalia I think? Gulf War I They were just a diversion though. 
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Jun 8, 2015 23:26
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Various NEOs. Sure, every NEO has some level of joint support but a modern military member can barely change the oil on a truck without calling it a joint operation.
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Jun 8, 2015 23:41
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paragon1 posted:When did we last use the Marines in such a fashion? Last year, Sudan
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Jun 9, 2015 01:53
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iyaayas01 posted:\/ To further the point, they're declaring IOC for political reasons; even USMC Aviation brass (for all their stupidity) aren't dumb enough to deploy Block 2B configured F-35s in an actual combat situation. IOC is being declared because the Marines are the ones furthest up poo poo creek when it comes to aircraft the F-35 is supposed to be replacing...the AF has boatloads of F-16s and the Navy has plenty of new-build SHornets, but all the Marines have are some old decrepit legacy Hornets and the death trap Harriers. So they are keenly interested in ensuring that they can start pushing F-35s out to the operational fleet as soon as possible in order to avoid the embarrassing situation of having a significant portion of their tacair fleet grounded for, I don't know, falling apart in midair. \/ Speak of the devil. http://airshowstuff.com/v4/2015/blue-angel-5-loses-part-of-wing-at-rockford-airfest/  quote:This is the second time a piece of a Blue Angel jet has fallen off in as many weeks. A fisherman found a small piece floating in a wetland area after the team’s performance in Rochester New York on May 23rd. He recovered the piece and returned it to the team. No word on whether the missing part from Rockford has been recovered or not, but the team is set to perform again today assuming the weather holds out.
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Jun 9, 2015 04:55
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hobbesmaster posted:Because the Navy "abandoned" them on Midway and the Marines hired an advertising agency after the war to guilt trip the Navy ever since. Well actually Guadalcanal Midway would be where the US Navy kicked rear end and took names, while USMC Aviation didn't do much of anything except die in their old decrepit obsolete aircraft. I suppose Richard Fleming almost accomplished something by kamikazeeing his plane into the ocean near the Mikuma. Which incidentally is basically the same thing Lofton Henderson (of Henderson Field fame) accomplished the day prior somewhere near the Hiryu. That's more or less the sum total of the USMC Aviation's contribution to the battle. USMC Aviation: Really good at crashing into the ocean in the general vicinity of a bad guy pointsofdata posted:http://defensetech.org/2015/03/06/general-f-35-will-initially-lag-older-aircraft-in-close-air-support/ pointsofdata posted:Yes it is At the risk of being accused of parroting USAF leadership, CAS isn't a platform, it's a mission. Just because the F-35 won't have SDB II capability right away doesn't mean it's not capable of performing some version of CAS with GBU-12s or JDAMs (when it gets JDAM capability, which won't be in Block 2B but will be before SDB II is integrated). Of course that's still insanely limited when compared to, I don't know, basically any other plane in the inventory, but it's not like you need a 30mm cannon to meet the criteria for carrying out CAS. This isn't to say that the plan to retire the Hawgs isn't dumb, because it is. I'm just saying that the idea that it only has a gun for CAS until the SDB II fields with it is loving dumb and that you have no idea what you're talking about. Also the SDB II isn't "approved for use" on anything yet because it just passed Milestone C so it hasn't quite fielded yet (supposed to declare IOC with the F-15E sometime this year). SDB Inc I is approved for use on Mud Hens and some other planes in the inventory but that's a different weapon. SocketWrench posted:Dunno if it really matters since they can't slow down the plane for CAS without losing lift, and only have a short 3 second worth of ammunition for that gun. Not to mention the loiter time is really short. whether they retire the Warthog before or after the F-35 is capable, ground troops will still have what they do now when warthogs aren't around; Some guy in a plane that really doesn't care and drops a few bombs well out of the target area. Or, perhaps, Cobras/Apaches when the army realizes the new CAS is hosed You, again, have no idea what you're talking about. Stop reading War is Boring and maybe listen to the people who actually do this for a living Jarmak posted:Last year, Sudan Which also featured USAF Ospreys getting lit the gently caress up (well it was technically South Sudan but same difference) That just seemed relevant since we were talking USMC Aviation and I think they're inseparable from the Osprey at this point. e: Dilkington posted:F-35B has a larger combat radius than the aircraft it's replacing in the USMC and the Royal Navy. The SHornet's canted pylons are another Naval Aviation joke that will never get old. iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 05:30
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Also, it seems the CAS argument always revolves around this idea of low and slow gun runs, which is based on the fact that our planes have literally no opposition from real SHORAD or AA threats. We pulled that off in ODS, we're sure to do it again! Except, you know, losing a solid handful of A-10s and F-16s to Strela-10s. Mazz fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 9, 2015 14:26
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 acceptable losses
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Jun 9, 2015 14:57
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Mazz posted:Also, it seems the CAS argument always revolves around this idea of low and slow gun runs, which is based on the fact that our planes have literally no opposition from real SHORAD or AA threats. We pulled that off in ODS, we're sure to do it again! And a bunch of British Tornadoes, enough of them that we switched from low-level to high-level attacks because of it.
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Jun 9, 2015 16:08
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Gun runs are not really a thing for CAS anymore, we have precision guided munitions for a reason.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:03
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-Troika- posted:Gun runs are not really a thing for CAS anymore, we have precision guided munitions for a reason.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:09
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