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Chomp8645 posted:VATS: Centerpiece mechanic or minor feature? I remember using VATS in FO3 because it was pretty broken, but I rarely used it in NV because I just didn't have to. I might have used it to "ping" around and see if it autolocked on an enemy, but that might have been the extent of it. It just meant that Action Points were kind of useless unless you had mods that gave you bullet time or sprinting.
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Jun 8, 2015 18:49
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I didn't like VATS, but I get why people used it. However, as someone who didn't use VATS in NV, I hope the perks that just make weapons more accurate in VATS will do something else as well for 4.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:13
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Chomp8645 posted:I guess the jury is still out on VATS. We don't need to examine VATS and determine whether it is objectively good or bad. It's less that the jury is out and more that some folks don't use or need it. Those folks are welcome to ignore it as they do and those folks that like or need it can use it when they want. Saying the game is balanced around it is really silly though, I have no idea where you would get that idea. It's a convenience, nothing more.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:24
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VATS was annoying because of the second long pause after you enter it where you can't even select anything.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:25
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THREE dawg, ow ow owwwwww!!!
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Jun 8, 2015 19:29
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KillerQueen posted:I didn't like VATS, but I get why people used it. However, as someone who didn't use VATS in NV, I hope the perks that just make weapons more accurate in VATS will do something else as well for 4. Higher crit chance on (body part) outside of it? That'd be pretty translatable for stuff like Sniper, but I dunno if something like Gunslinger or Commando would be too broken if it created a higher crit chance anywhere.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:31
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boneration posted:Saying the game is balanced around it is really silly though, I have no idea where you would get that idea. It's a convenience, nothing more. Your SPECIAL score affects VATS. A bunch of perks affect VATS. There are some examples right there. "Just don't use VATS" also means "ignore a number of perks". The system permeates throughout the game. Do you have another wrong opinion to share?
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Jun 8, 2015 19:31
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What that, you don't like the titans in Titanfall? Stop complaining you dummy and just don't use them. They are a convenience and nothing more, quite non-essential to the experience.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:34
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That part is true. If VATS were designed as simply an optional tool that the player can use if they find it more enjoyable then it would be great. The fact that they tied in perks and other stats to the system is what sucked about its implementation. I generally prefer not to use VATS but I do use it regularly enough to the point where I would miss it if it were gone.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:35
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I only used VATS when trying to avoid taking a shotload of damage, say from getting a rocket to the face or having one of those ghoul bullet sponges gank you. It was quite handy being able to turn immoral while dishing out some damage. Otherwise yes KB+M was just fine. I may still be used to the old games though where you needed a sacrifice for the RNG gods to hit the broad side of a barn in the early game.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:35
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Chomp8645 posted:Your SPECIAL score affects VATS. A bunch of perks affect VATS. There are some examples right there. "Just don't use VATS" also means "ignore a number of perks". The system permeates throughout the game.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:45
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Raygereio posted:None of that means the gameplay was balanced around VATS. Those are Bethesda's attempts at integrating the VATS system with the game's character building elements. Are you saying perks and SPECIAL are not game play/balance related? You're trying to argue semantics but doing it poorly.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:47
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The content's in the game but you don't have to use it, you don't have to do all the guild quests in TES games but you can if you want to. Just use the stuff you like.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:49
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OwlFancier posted:The content's in the game but you don't have to use it, you don't have to do all the guild quests in TES games but you can if you want to. Just use the stuff you like. You could say this about literally every piece of content in every game. A wise statement.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:50
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Filthy Casual posted:Higher crit chance on (body part) outside of it? That'd be pretty translatable for stuff like Sniper, but I dunno if something like Gunslinger or Commando would be too broken if it created a higher crit chance anywhere. Well, it doesn't need to be crit chance. Gunslinger could give fire rat and Commando could give recoil reduction or something. I just want the game to not have perks that are 100% VATS. I also hope they don't keep the starting traits from NV, it's a neat idea but I think I pretty much always took the perception trait and Wild Wasteland (which probably should have just been in the game regardless).
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Jun 8, 2015 19:52
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OwlFancier posted:The content's in the game but you don't have to use it, you don't have to do all the guild quests in TES games but you can if you want to. Just use the stuff you like. The problem is that it is easy to feel like you are mathematically gimping yourself by not using it due to the perks and SPECIAL points. That just makes the choice less fun for people who would prefer not to use VATS. Your point would be completely reasonable if Bethesda removed that aspect and hopefully they will in FO4. VATS is a pretty cool system but no one should feel influenced to use it for any reason beyond personal preference.
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Jun 8, 2015 19:57
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Grr, I am irritated that your stats effect a part of the game
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Jun 8, 2015 20:00
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*shrug* if you don't want to use VATS you can not put points into the VATS attributes or buy the perks for it. More points for the stuff you do like using. You don't have to put points into energy weapons if you only use guns but the stat is there if you want to use it. I used to go long periods of the game not using it because I forgot it existed, it's not really required to play the game, all bethsoft games contain a bunch of content that probably any given player won't be very interested in using, again just play the stuff you like. Ignore, say, the main quest if you don't want to do it. Works fine for me.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:03
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Chomp8645 posted:Are you saying perks and SPECIAL are not game play/balance related? You're completely correct in that the game's character build element - SPECIAL, Skills, Perks - affect VATS. However, that in no way means the entire game was balanced around using it. Those same elements affect the regular shooter gameplay. All that means is that Bethesda tried to integrate the VATS system with the rest of the game. To make everything a cohesive whole. There are no encounters in either FO3 or F:NV that required you using VATS. KillerQueen posted:I also hope they don't keep the starting traits from NV, it's a neat idea but I think I pretty much always took the perception trait and Wild Wasteland (which probably should have just been in the game regardless). Raygereio fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:04
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I always liked the fact that VATS was an option in 3/4. Early on it's mostly useless as you can get better accuracy from normal shots, but I always found VATS super helpful when you get a fair amount of skill in a weapon and get towards the endgame. I use it all the time to cripple deathclaw legs to slow them down so they can't do that bullshit pounce isntagib on me. It's also great for certain annoying-fast enemies (Bloatflies, and shooting the wings off of Cazadores). Plus IIRC unarmed (and maybe melee?) get a bigass damage boost in VATS. I know unarmed deals double damage in VATS, which helps make it useful to characters that otherwise wouldn't give a poo poo. Xavier434 posted:The problem is that it is easy to feel like you are mathematically gimping yourself by not using it due to the perks and SPECIAL points. That just makes the choice less fun for people who would prefer not to use VATS. Your point would be completely reasonable if Bethesda removed that aspect and hopefully they will in FO4. VATS is a pretty cool system but no one should feel influenced to use it for any reason beyond personal preference. You sound like you're angry that Bethesda is forcing you to use VATS in order to minmax your character. I used to be like this until I started trying to force myself not to minmax and since then I've found that I actually have more fun with the games, since I'm adjusting my playstyle in ways that make it feel different. khy fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:05
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I keep hearing people ask for the Elder Scrolls leveling system in Fallout and it's pretty dumb. XP gives you incentives to go questing, while that stat grinding poo poo in the Elder Scrolls makes leveling up feel like a chore. Some people say the Elder Scrolls way is "more immersive" or some such poo poo, but I really don't care.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:06
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cargohills posted:Grr, I am irritated that your stats effect a part of the game I wouldn't call it "irritated". More like, "I would have more fun playing this game if..." It is a perfectly reasonable position to have about this sort of game play feature. I doubt anyone would have an issue if FO4 did not contain any perks or stats that were VATS exclusive. It seems like a win/win no brainer to do this imo. SunAndSpring posted:I keep hearing people ask for the Elder Scrolls leveling system in Fallout and it's pretty dumb. XP gives you incentives to go questing, while that stat grinding poo poo in the Elder Scrolls makes leveling up feel like a chore. Some people say the Elder Scrolls way is "more immersive" or some such poo poo, but I really don't care. The key in TES is to not grind them and just let them increase naturally as you play. Questing incentives are better if they surround story, exploration, and loot anyways imo. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:07
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Xavier434 posted:I wouldn't call it "irritated". More like, "I would have more fun playing this game if..." Surely you would prefer more them to be more exclusive which would allow you to ignore them entirely if you aren't interested in the feature, rather than having other abilities devalued because you won't use part of the perk?
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Jun 8, 2015 20:09
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SunAndSpring posted:I keep hearing people ask for the Elder Scrolls leveling system in Fallout and it's pretty dumb. XP gives you incentives to go questing, while that stat grinding poo poo in the Elder Scrolls makes leveling up feel like a chore. Some people say the Elder Scrolls way is "more immersive" or some such poo poo, but I really don't care. gently caress that poo poo, Oblivion and Morrowind's leveling system was godawful. I don't like being forced into using certain skills to manage how quickly my characters level up, because the alternative is getting absolutely destroyed by a game that grew up too fast around your character. It got better in Skyrim, but god help you if you wanted to build up a secondary combat skill late in the game. Fallout is perfect since you can complete objectives in any fashion you want, and build up skills when you think they'll be most useful.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:15
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+1 for no TES leveling, it sort of works for TES but fallout is a nice change and I like being given a bucket of XP as a reward. Main change I'd suggest is giving out fewer skill points as it's pretty easy to go from complete noob to perfect mastery of a skill in five levels with decent intelligence. More levels, more perks, fewer skill points per level would be better.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:18
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Xavier434 posted:I wouldn't call it "irritated". More like, "I would have more fun playing this game if..." Your argument ignores the people who enjoy the VATS perks because they're more RPG/sim type gamers than FPS. Remember that the Fallout series wasn't an FPS until 3, so many of the fans of the previous games may not have been big shooter fans. To those fans, the VATS system felt like a great compromise. Some people who don't play many FPS games have trouble tracking/hitting moving targets (And with certain guns certain fas, and the VATS system would allow for RPG elements to be able to substitute for their personal lack of FPS skills. For those people your proposed system could be considered a definite loss and downgrade from previous titles. I'm especially reminded of watching my ex girlfriend try to kill cazadores outside of VATS and the colorful language that ensued. She was addicted to Jet 75% of the time in her games. You say that "I would have more fun playing this game if..." but surely you can recognize that there are people out there who have radically differing opinions from your own, and that stating that a fairly large gameplay feature should be removed just because you personally dislike/don't use it much may not be the best course of action for Bethesda. I personally hope they leave it in and give plenty of perks for people to choose from, so people who hate it can ignore it while people who like it can continue to use it freely. THAT seems like the best win/win to me.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:19
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Chomp8645 posted:Your SPECIAL score affects VATS. A bunch of perks affect VATS. There are some examples right there. "Just don't use VATS" also means "ignore a number of perks". The system permeates throughout the game. "Just don't use unarmed" also means "ignore a number of perks". "Just don't use barter" also means "ignore a number of perks". "Just don't use survival" also means "ignore a number of perks". Would you say the game is balanced around Unarmed, and that people who don't build for it are gimping themselves somehow? How about Barter? There are things in the game, that are in your control to modify, that affect VATS. Wanna use VATS? Great, take lots of AGI and the perks that affect it. Don't wanna use VATS? Great, AGI can be a dump stat if you want, and you can ignore the perks that affect VATS in favour of others. There are no encounters in either game that require VATS to beat, no critical skill checks that you will fail if you don't have a VATS related perk. The game is not balanced around VATS, it's merely an optional mechanic that you can improve if you choose.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:21
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khy posted:Your argument ignores the people who enjoy the VATS perks because they're more RPG/sim type gamers than FPS. Remember that the Fallout series wasn't an FPS until 3, so many of the fans of the previous games may not have been big shooter fans. To those fans, the VATS system felt like a great compromise. Some people who don't play many FPS games have trouble tracking/hitting moving targets (And with certain guns certain fas, and the VATS system would allow for RPG elements to be able to substitute for their personal lack of FPS skills. For those people your proposed system could be considered a definite loss and downgrade from previous titles. I'm especially reminded of watching my ex girlfriend try to kill cazadores outside of VATS and the colorful language that ensued. She was addicted to Jet 75% of the time in her games. Your argument is very solid when it comes to supporting the VATS system, but not the VATS exclusive perks. I am ok with the VATS system. The VATS perks are not a large gameplay feature. The VATS system is.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:24
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VATS sucks because you can't shoot people in the dick or eyes.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:26
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OwlFancier posted:+1 for no TES leveling, it sort of works for TES but fallout is a nice change and I like being given a bucket of XP as a reward. Main change I'd suggest is giving out fewer skill points as it's pretty easy to go from complete noob to perfect mastery of a skill in five levels with decent intelligence. More levels, more perks, fewer skill points per level would be better. Becoming an invisible murder ninja before hitting level 10 is one of the best things about the game. New Vegas had the skill points balanced out pretty well, IMO. Once you get past level 30 it doesn't hurt to try out some different forms of combat.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:26
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Rinkles posted:Skyrim certainly had NV beat on the number of essential npcs Yes because I like my wide-open openworld games to dictate to me exactly who I can and can't kill. I just now started back up an old fourth playthrough of New Vegas that I started like two years ago, and I thought I'd try the "direct approach" to killing Benny in the Tops because I knew it could be done. I didn't keep my weapons either, I made it challenging by scrounging around the place for any weapon I could find and then go from there. I snuck into the kitchen, grabbed a butcher knife, then killed some lone Chairmen to grab their peashooters. Then I went down to the main floor, got jacked up on chems and then blasted everybody. I made it out by the skin of my teeth but I managed it. If New Vegas were more like Skyrim, they'd railroad you into going to the Legion camp to go after Benny no matter what. There'd be no sequence breaking or coming up with your own solutions, Benny would run straight to you at the entrance, every dialogue option would lead to the Penthouse Suite, then you'd have to go to the Legion camp afterwards.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:28
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Xavier434 posted:Your argument is very solid when it comes to supporting the VATS system, but not the VATS exclusive perks. I am ok with the VATS system. The VATS perks are not a large gameplay feature. The VATS system is. You mean you're annoyed that some perks only effect VATS but not regular FPS combat? Why didn't you just say that? Anyway, there's not very much you can do with accuracy related perks outside of VATS apart from spread/recoil reduction.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:32
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boneration posted:"Just don't use unarmed" also means "ignore a number of perks". I have no response to this other than "lol". Filthy Casual posted:gently caress that poo poo, Oblivion and Morrowind's leveling system was godawful. I don't like being forced into using certain skills to manage how quickly my characters level up, because the alternative is getting absolutely destroyed by a game that grew up too fast around your character. It got better in Skyrim, but god help you if you wanted to build up a secondary combat skill late in the game. Fallout is perfect since you can complete objectives in any fashion you want, and build up skills when you think they'll be most useful. Even Oblivion's system wasn't unsalvageable. The problem is that Bethesda doesn't bother to think anything through, they just slap poo poo on and call it a day. The system could work if you did it smartly. There was a great goon mod that redid the perks in Skyrim to make the skill trees synergized with one another which comes to mind. However yes if the choices are "use XP based system" or "trust Bethesda to do something intelligently" then throw that poo poo out, I agree.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:34
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Xavier434 posted:Your argument is very solid when it comes to supporting the VATS system, but not the VATS exclusive perks. I am ok with the VATS system. The VATS perks are not a large gameplay feature. The VATS system is. There are 88 'regular perks' (Perks which can be chosen at level-up) in the base game, of which you can take 15. (One perk every 2 levels, level 30 cap) There are 117 'regular perks' if you have all the DLC, of which you can take 25. (Level 50 cap with all DLC) Out of those 88 regular perks, 9 of them affect VATS. 11 if you have all the DLC. How exactly is it that you believe that the game is so centered around those 11 perks that you cannot build a character properly without them? Are you having THAT much trouble finding one of the other 106 perks to take? Why are you so upset about those 11 perks that you're arguing so vehemently against removing them from the game? Or, once again, is this an argument about how you feel you have to minmax and can't enjoy the game unless you're being TOTALLY OPTIMAL? khy fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:35
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Filthy Casual posted:Becoming an invisible murder ninja before hitting level 10 is one of the best things about the game. New Vegas had the skill points balanced out pretty well, IMO. Once you get past level 30 it doesn't hurt to try out some different forms of combat. Eh, I find it makes the game a bit dull when combined with how much your numbers determine your abilities. Essentially you bung all your points into stealth or repair and the game becomes completely trivial then after. Having things to work towards beyond maxing out every skill does help the game I think. But then my ideal fallout is STALKER with (more) scifi guns.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:35
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cargohills posted:You mean you're annoyed that some perks only effect VATS but not regular FPS combat? Why didn't you just say that? Anyway, there's not very much you can do with accuracy related perks outside of VATS apart from spread/recoil reduction. Xavier434 posted:That part is true. If VATS were designed as simply an optional tool that the player can use if they find it more enjoyable then it would be great. The fact that they tied in perks and other stats to the system is what sucked about its implementation. I generally prefer not to use VATS but I do use it regularly enough to the point where I would miss it if it were gone. Scroll up a few posts. khy posted:How exactly is it that you believe that the game is so centered around those 11 perks that you cannot build a character properly without them? Are you having THAT much trouble finding one of the other 106 perks to take? Why are you so upset about those 11 perks that you're arguing so vehemently against removing them from the game? Actually yeah...I dislike most of the perk choices to be honest but I did like the benefits tied to the VATS perks a lot except for the VATS part. Beyond that though, I am not upset as I tried to explain earlier. I am not taking this quite as seriously as you seem to believe I am. It's not like I felt that this killed the game for me. I put in a ton of hours in FO3 with no regrets and will do the same with FO4 regardless of VATS perks. Xavier434 fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 20:35
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I used to be pretty ambivalent about VATS, since I always played on the PC, with bullet time/sprint, and keyboard+mouse. It never specifically bothered me, and also most of the mods that add bullet time also either add perks for bullet time, or piggy-back off of the VATS perks somehow. So it was never an issue. Then I decided to play through it again the other day and make use of Steams stream to your TV functionality, which meant having to use an xbox controller, and now I totally see what VATS is for. It's not terribly fun trying to shoot things with thumbsticks. So, to me, it seems that VATS is really intended more for consoles, where you just don't have the precision that you'd expect from KB/M, but still need to, say, shoot the wings off a cazador or cripple a deathclaw. In that regard it's great, and totally changes my playstyle. It's no less fun, it's just different.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:46
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Xavier434 posted:That part is true. If VATS were designed as simply an optional tool that the player can use if they find it more enjoyable then it would be great. The fact that they tied in perks and other stats to the system is what sucked about its implementation. I generally prefer not to use VATS but I do use it regularly enough to the point where I would miss it if it were gone. See, this is confusing, because you're suggesting that VATS should be completely separate to character creation and other aspects of the game, which makes zero sense.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:49
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Kurr de la Cruz posted:Then I decided to play through it again the other day and make use of Steams stream to your TV functionality, which meant having to use an xbox controller, and now I totally see what VATS is for. It's not terribly fun trying to shoot things with thumbsticks. So, to me, it seems that VATS is really intended more for consoles, where you just don't have the precision that you'd expect from KB/M, but still need to, say, shoot the wings off a cazador or cripple a deathclaw. In that regard it's great, and totally changes my playstyle. It's no less fun, it's just different. Consoles, the eternal nemesis. First VATS, then that hideous wall around the Strip.
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Jun 8, 2015 20:50
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Xavier434 posted:I did like the benefits tied to the VATS perks a lot except for the VATS part Six of the VATS perks did nothing at all except boost accuracy of VATS attacks. One did nothing more than give you back AP when you killed an enemy in VATS. So obviously those perks aren't what you're talking about. Of the remaining four, 1 was a generic 15% damage bonus to torsos, 1 was a special unarmed move that could paralyze, and the other two were miss fortune/mysterious stranger. I'll tell you what, Xavier. When fallout 4 comes out if any of these perks makes it into the game I'll make a mod to apply them to normal combat outside of VATS, just for you. OK?
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Jun 8, 2015 20:50
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