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That thread has some good posting that is gonna lead to bans right now.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:11
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spectralent posted:So Beast's pretty poo poo. The thing I find most worrying is how strongly a lot of people seem to have identified with the Ghost of Christmas Child Abuse. I'm not too surprised about that. There's definitely a queer subtext to Beast, under the abusively petty text. If someone's desperate enough for a game with queer subtext that they don't think about how weird the rest of Beast is conceptually, I can't really blame them. I hope they find a better queer game to connect with, but I can't blame them.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:23
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Tezzor posted:http://nwod.org/wiki/index.php/Provoke_Wrath There's no listed "provoke terror" spell, and forcing someone to attack you has very different balance considerations from forcing someone to flee you, so there's no reason to believe that it's also Mind 3 to force a vampire or werewolf into fear frenzy. For both monsters, fear frenzies are much more niche than anger frenzies - vampire anger frenzies explicitly trump vampire fear frenzies, and for werewolves the fear frenzy is a subset of the anger frenzy that only occurs under certain conditions. That said, let's pretend that you're right and you can cast a reversed version of that spell at the same dot level. If you cast the spell successfully, overcoming your target's resistance... you provoke a frenzy check. You know, the regular old ResCom roll that, itself, isn't really contested or penalized by anything? Vampires get to do it as an extended action, so even if you absolutely crush them with your custom spell they'll just spend three turns shrugging it off instead of one. When Eye of the Beast overcomes your resistance, you just stop playing for the rest of the scene. I don't know why you keep listing all the different things Mind can do, as though that's relevant to the point. In general, Mind does things in a more finnicky, temporary, and lower-powered way than do comparable Disciplines; individual mage spells work on about the same level as individual 1E werewolf Gifts. There are specific functions at which Mind is actually even or better - Psychic Sword is as strong as Mortal Fear and, as you say, cheaper - but if you want long-term slaves or gibbering wrecks or the other things that the Disciplines accomplish, the Disciplines are just better at making them. Also I notice you've slipped yet another reference to the results of ritually cast buff stacking because you just can't actually seal the deal re: the thing we've been talking about.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:24
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Can we just like...start handing them a copy of Monster Hearts or something?
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Jun 9, 2015 21:25
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unseenlibrarian posted:Can we just like...start handing them a copy of Monster Hearts or something? Monsterhearts is a good game and more people should play it. It encourages you to be an abusive jerkass but this doesn't actually solve anything and there's certainly no authorial pat on the back for managing to entangle yourself in a web of hosed up relationships.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:30
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unseenlibrarian posted:Can we just like...start handing them a copy of Monster Hearts or something? Really, we could just point them to other WoD splats. Changelings, Prometheans, and Demons all hit great points for marginalized group stand-ins.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:31
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spectralent posted:So Beast's pretty poo poo. The thing I find most worrying is how strongly a lot of people seem to have identified with the Ghost of Christmas Child Abuse. I'm not really worried on the public front, Beast has provoked a pretty strongly negative reaction overall, with defenders being outliers instead of the norm. The only poll I've seen (on rpg.net) is hovering pretty firmly at the majority of people outright not liking Beast, with a strong majority thinking it has problems. I'm more worried that nothing is going to be done to fix Beast, although I'm not even sure where'd you start, because everything I've seen from the creators has given me the sense that they're going full criticism turtle.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:33
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Tulul posted:I'm not really worried on the public front, Beast has provoked a pretty strongly negative reaction overall, with defenders being outliers instead of the norm. The only poll I've seen (on rpg.net) is hovering pretty firmly at the majority of people outright not liking Beast, with a strong majority thinking it has problems. I think it may be less of a "criticism turtle" and more of a "panic because as this stuff become more clear it's looking like the choice is either massive rewrites and pushing the book back months and starting huge sections over from scratch or releasing the book with a few minor changes to try to make things clearer and risking your professional reputation which has, up to now, been sterling." I mean, let's not forget that "Integrity 4" was supposed to be a small fix to clarify the role of heroes and it only made things worse.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:39
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Yeah, I think the integrity 4 thing is "We haven't internalized the switch from Morality", basically.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:44
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Dave Brookshaw posted:So one of the amusing things about this meme, is that Brutal Casting doesn't actually exist. I didn't like it in the first draft of Mage's Merits, so I deleted it in the redlines.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:44
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You think you're safe? You're not safe. It'll be back. Some freelancer will sneak it into some supplement somewhere, maybe under a more innocuous name.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:46
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I think that one of the issues with the feeding mechanics is that the "nice" beasts feeding practices don't even seem like feeding practices, just 'things people do, except sinister'. Like the Tyrant with his MBA working his way to the top of a company. Which strikes me as 1 dice feeding opportunity, at best. And he's not going to be rolling that often, and the minute he gets a 1 he's in a giant pile of trouble.Tulul posted:I'm not really worried on the public front, Beast has provoked a pretty strongly negative reaction overall, with defenders being outliers instead of the norm. The only poll I've seen (on rpg.net) is hovering pretty firmly at the majority of people outright not liking Beast, with a strong majority thinking it has problems. The Kickstarter comments are staying positive but that's because only backers can comment "Matt McFarland posted:Gotta tell you, it's right nice seeing some positive comments about my game. The OPP thread is also shouting down detractors and coming up with increasingly bizarre metaphors for beasts which just create even more confusing parallels. Such as beasts as people on a diet.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:47
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How consequential are the nightmares that people get for being around a Satiety 0 Beast, anyway? It seems like causing people to have bad dreams is less ruinous, over all, than abusing them in the waking world.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:49
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Ferrinus posted:How consequential are the nightmares that people get for being around a Satiety 0 Beast, anyway? It seems like causing people to have bad dreams is less ruinous, over all, than abusing them in the waking world. Psychologically devastating to the point where they may become Heroes. Their dream-selves are drawn into the Beast's lair, killed, and eaten.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:50
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The reading I got was that they were the capital N nightmares that beasts get as powers. So your Soul is going out and casting "BEHOLD MY TRUE FORM" or "YOU ARE MEAT" on a bunch of people.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:52
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Tezzor posted:http://nwod.org/wiki/index.php/Provoke_Wrath I hate to break it to you, but you're just not going to win an argument with Ferrinus. You can rest assured he can deconstruct any argument you may care to make. I guess you could say you're working with a Discipline related to internet argument, and he's working with an Arcana.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:54
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Ferrinus posted:You think you're safe? You're not safe. It'll be back. Some freelancer will sneak it into some supplement somewhere, maybe under a more innocuous name. 'Enthusiastic Casting'
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Jun 9, 2015 21:54
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Adept Nightingale posted:I guess you could say you're working with a Discipline related to internet argument, and he's working with an Arcana. One of us has a single, clean point to make and the other is rooting around in a huge grab bag of maybe-applicable but hard-to-stick examples.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:57
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Kurieg posted:The OPP thread is also shouting down detractors and coming up with increasingly bizarre metaphors for beasts which just create even more confusing parallels. Such as beasts as people on a diet. I needed that laugh. For real? I'm struggling to understand the context this is meant to work with but my mental image of it is still hilarious. Kurieg posted:The reading I got was that they were the capital N nightmares that beasts get as powers. So your Soul is going out and casting "BEHOLD MY TRUE FORM" or "YOU ARE MEAT" on a bunch of people. It's not like chronic insomnia from night terrors is much better even if they're not actually super trauma sorcery.
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Jun 9, 2015 21:58
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spectralent posted:I needed that laugh. For real? I'm struggling to understand the context this is meant to work with but my mental image of it is still hilarious. Technically, a diet of human flesh is a diet.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:03
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Dammit Who? posted:Yes, I agree. From what other people who've known him longer say it seems very unlikely that McFarland would intend for his work to come across this way. It's especially baffling because he also wrote the lion's share of World of Darkness: Innocents — most notably, the lengthy sidebar explicitly instructing Storytellers to leave real-world child abuse out of the game, to let the child characters' antagonists be imaginary monsters and not too-familiar real-world monsters.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:04
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spectralent posted:I needed that laugh. For real? I'm struggling to understand the context this is meant to work with but my mental image of it is still hilarious. quote:I would point out: has anyone here ever had to struggle with being hungry? Or to stay on a regimented diet? Omitting, of course, when humans don't eat enough our stomachs don't leave our bodies and chow down at the local fast food joint.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:06
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Kurieg posted:Omitting, of course, when humans don't eat enough our stomachs don't leave our bodies and chow down at the local fast food joint. Also that binging on cake doesn't equate to child abuse on even the most tortured metaphorical level.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:15
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Kai Tave posted:Also that binging on cake doesn't equate to child abuse on even the most tortured metaphorical level. You've never tried to debate someone who took a Freshman ethics course, I see.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:20
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Kai Tave posted:Also that binging on cake doesn't equate to child abuse on even the most tortured metaphorical level. Do not even pretend that, somewhere, there is not a draft from Taxi Beast's writer about the sinister clown who feeds by stealing children's birthday cakes.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:21
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Kai Tave posted:Also that binging on cake doesn't equate to child abuse on even the most tortured metaphorical level. Unless you're Jonathan Swift writing a satirical letter, anyway.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:23
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Ferrinus posted:You think you're safe? You're not safe. It'll be back. Some freelancer will sneak it into some supplement somewhere, maybe under a more innocuous name. Brütal Cåstīng
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Jun 9, 2015 22:25
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Effectronica posted:Brütal Cåstīng Tim Schafer is plotzing.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:31
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The argument that the "moral" beasts that feed through minorly inconveniencing people aren't dangerous falls apart if you actually read the text. Because that's not the way you get a lot of Satiety. They're more likely to hit 0 as a result and getting out of Ravenous requires a feed with a Satiety potential of 8, killing a hero, or your soul succeeding on a chance die nightmare feeding, which will always create a hero. These kinds of beasts are also the kind are going to spend satiety slowly, if at all, so they're going to be sitting at sated for a long time. Meaning that they're very likely to get Anathemas on them. The only way to resolve an anathema is to go down to ravenous and come back out.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:33
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Effectronica posted:Brütal Cåstīng This seems like "American Ninja Warrior" if it was about finding actors for TV shows and movies.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:36
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Axelgear posted:Do not even pretend that, somewhere, there is not a draft from Taxi Beast's writer about the sinister clown who feeds by stealing children's birthday cakes. The clown beast has stolen 40 cakes, and that's terrible.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:37
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Daeren posted:You've never tried to debate someone who took a Freshman ethics course, I see. Beast really IS the oWoD all over again.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:46
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Gilok posted:The clown beast has stolen 40 cakes, and that's terrible.  Here we see an Eshmaki getting owned because he made the grave mistake of trying to kill his Namtaru rival in his Lair.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:46
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Mormon Star Wars posted:This seems like "American Ninja Warrior" if it was about finding actors for TV shows and movies. I know a guy who tried out for that and he got a broken leg for his trouble. He's gonna try again though.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:47
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Daeren posted:This reminds me of that grimoire that's a limited run vinyl of a death metal album that actually plays "Satanic" High Speech when run backwards, and has a rote to turn a corpse's skeleton into metal and rip itself free from the body. That one was mine. There's a reference to it in one of my stories in The Fallen World Chronicle Anthology. The name actually comes from a friend of mine. We were going to print t-shirts with that name and some graphics and claim to be into the most obscure possible band. That's why Schattenbahn has a similarly synthetic origin.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:51
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At the risk of detracting from the Beast discussion... So it's a kind of accepted in NWoD that Mages are the most potentially powerful supernatural template, with Changelings being one of the lower-tier ones being slightly above mortals. I don't know if supernatural splats are grouped into tiers, but for the ones already out, how would they rank from top to bottom in terms of overall power and versatility? Not just cheap exploits, but stuff many non-optimized gamers do as well.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:57
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Daeren posted:
This picture makes me unreasonably happy after seeing Alien: Isolation.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:58
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Libertad! posted:At the risk of detracting from the Beast discussion... Changelings certainly outclass mortals to a substantial degree; a lot of their abilities are based around changeling inherent features rather than their powers, though, which makes them less dramatic than other splats in straight-up comparisons. Demons and Geists are up near the top too, though Demons get a boost from Going Loud which carries some pretty hefty penalties. Prometheans were historically very resilient but I'm not sure how they stack up with new turbodeath werewolves.
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Jun 9, 2015 23:04
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Dave Brookshaw posted:So one of the amusing things about this meme, is that Brutal Casting doesn't actually exist. I didn't like it in the first draft of Mage's Merits, so I deleted it in the redlines.
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Jun 9, 2015 23:04
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MalcolmSheppard posted:That one was mine. There's a reference to it in one of my stories in The Fallen World Chronicle Anthology. That whole part of the story made me really happy. The Unmurdered Man might be my favorite piece of World of Darkness fiction, it was a total joy to read.
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Jun 9, 2015 23:16
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