Sous veni, sous vide, sous vizzle

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Goons with Spoons > Sous veni, sous vide, sous vizzle

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

He's not wrong. A single layer of balls allows me to do a 72 hour cook without refilling (anova one.) You may have to double layer if you're at high elevation. Eliminating all evaporation isn't worth the amount of foil needed.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 15:53

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# ? May 30, 2024 16:14

EAT THE EGGS RICOLA: May 29, 2008

taqueso posted:

We just need ping pong cubes, someone could make a fortune.

Quick, go find a maker space to 3d print them.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 16:04

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

Mr. Wookums posted:

He's not wrong. A single layer of balls allows me to do a 72 hour cook without refilling (anova one.) You may have to double layer if you're at high elevation. Eliminating all evaporation isn't worth the amount of foil needed.

Lol the two sheets it requires?

# ? Jun 10, 2015 16:09

Safety Dance: Sep 10, 2007; Five degrees to starboard!

Wait and see if you're still laughing when the Tinfoil Wars start!

# ? Jun 10, 2015 16:16

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Jarmak posted:

This sounds dumb as hell, vapor pressure inside a crimped tinfoil cover will do way more to slow evaporation then ping pong balls floating on the top.

That's not what vapour pressure means. Vapour pressure is a function of temperature. If what you're trying to say is that you think a foil cover will allow the pressure over the surface of the water to rise and [something], no. You can't make a pressure cooker by tenting foil over a cambro.

Foil (or a lid) will not affect evaporation at all per se---you're just relying on the lid to allow the water vapour to condense and drip back down into the container. Putting ping pong balls (or anything else) in the water will be less effective as a condenser than foil, but unlike foil it will actually change the rate of evaporation in the first place: the rate of evaporation is directly proportional to the surface area of the water. Ideal space packing of uniform circles on a flat plane is around 91% (ideal hexagonal packing) and absolute worst case (each circle inscribed on a square in a uniform grid) is around 75%, so the balls are going to reduce the amount of evaporative loss by about that much.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 16:48

Flash Gordon Ramsay: Sep 28, 2004; Grimey Drawer

Math!

# ? Jun 10, 2015 16:53

Flash Gordon Ramsay: Sep 28, 2004; Grimey Drawer

My replacement cooker from Sansaire arrived. Of course that leaves me with 3 ICs, so I am giving one to a guy in my office who likes to cook but hasn't gotten into SV yet.

But props to the Sansaire folks for standing behind an out of warranty product.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 16:54

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

I'm sure someone could manage to use ping pong balls to burn their kitchen down despite being in water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj0GTJnR_HI

# ? Jun 10, 2015 17:03

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Jose posted:

I'm sure someone could manage to use ping pong balls to burn their kitchen down despite being in water

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj0GTJnR_HI

A `real' ping pong ball is celluloid, which is highly flammable. Almost everyone using them in a water bath is buying the cheapass plastic `practice' ping pong balls, which are a lot less combustible, even out of water.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 17:10

The Midniter: Jul 9, 2001

Jose posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj0GTJnR_HI

That was MUCH more entertaining than I expected.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 17:15

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

The Midniter posted:

That was MUCH more entertaining than I expected.

The industrial process that used to be used to produce celluloid resulted in a slightly acidic residue in the final product. This caused the celluloid to slowly degrade over time. One of the ways this manifested itself was increased shock sensitivity, which would sometimes result in ping pong balls spontaneously igniting when struck.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 17:18

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

SubG posted:

That's not what vapour pressure means. Vapour pressure is a function of temperature. If what you're trying to say is that you think a foil cover will allow the pressure over the surface of the water to rise and [something], no. You can't make a pressure cooker by tenting foil over a cambro.

Foil (or a lid) will not affect evaporation at all per se---you're just relying on the lid to allow the water vapour to condense and drip back down into the container.

Sure it will, because it's increasing the humidity of the volume of air over the water. Evaporation rate is the difference between the rate at which water molecules leave the surface and fly off into the air and the rate at which water molecules in the air randomly fly into the surface of the water. If the concentration of water vapor is higher, then that latter rate is higher, so evaporation happens more slowly. If the volume of air were saturated, no evaporation would occur (well, technically it would, but it would be exactly countered by condensation and the water level would not change).

Just being a physics pedant, in any actual cook the difference will, again, be approximately gently caress/all. I've done 72 hour cooks with foil and also not needed to add any water, although generally I do those in a cooler with a hole cut in the lid so I don't waste as much energy heating up my kitchen.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 17:35

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Phanatic posted:

Sure it will, because it's increasing the humidity of the volume of air over the water.

Yeah, but this will only affect evaporation in proportion to the delta between the mass of water vapour trapped under the cover and the corresponding mass of water in the same volume of air over the uncovered surface. Even if we assume that the difference is between some elevated RH under the cover and ambient RH, that's not going get you anywhere near a 80-odd percent change in the rate of evaporation. And in an actual s-v setup the difference in RH over a tented and non-tented water bath is going to be even smaller (because even uncovered the RH over the surface of the water isn't going to be the ambient RH unless it's being actively ventilated or something).

# ? Jun 10, 2015 17:49

theres a will theres moe: Jan 10, 2007; Hair Elf

Household metal foils will not really reflect wavelengths of thermal energy at temperatures that water will reach in your kitchen, so use plastic wrap or some other inexpensive thing that doesn't absorb water. If anything. Styrofoam or whatever if your concerned about insulation. Just make it cheap.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 18:04

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

SubG posted:

That's not what vapour pressure means. Vapour pressure is a function of temperature. If what you're trying to say is that you think a foil cover will allow the pressure over the surface of the water to rise and [something], no. You can't make a pressure cooker by tenting foil over a cambro.

Foil (or a lid) will not affect evaporation at all per se---you're just relying on the lid to allow the water vapour to condense and drip back down into the container. Putting ping pong balls (or anything else) in the water will be less effective as a condenser than foil, but unlike foil it will actually change the rate of evaporation in the first place: the rate of evaporation is directly proportional to the surface area of the water. Ideal space packing of uniform circles on a flat plane is around 91% (ideal hexagonal packing) and absolute worst case (each circle inscribed on a square in a uniform grid) is around 75%, so the balls are going to reduce the amount of evaporative loss by about that much.

No, vapor pressure is a function of atmospheric pressure versus the hydrogen bonds of the liquid water. Temperature of evaporation is a function of vapor pressure.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 18:13

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Number 1 Sexy Dad posted:

Household metal foils will not really reflect wavelengths of thermal energy at temperatures that water will reach in your kitchen[...]

Actually aluminium foil has really good reflectance that part of the IR spectrum. But the function of foil tented over a water bath isn't thermal insulation so it's not particularly relevant.

Jarmak posted:

No, vapor pressure is a function of atmospheric pressure versus the hydrogen bonds of the liquid water. Temperature of evaporation is a function of vapor pressure.

No, vapour pressure is the pressure at which the vapour is in equilibrium with the material's condensed phase, and is a function of temperature. There is no such thing as a temperature of evaporation.

Perhaps the thing you're trying to get at is partial pressure?

# ? Jun 10, 2015 18:28

theres a will theres moe: Jan 10, 2007; Hair Elf

SubG posted:

Actually aluminium foil has really good reflectance that part of the IR spectrum.

I guess I will have to apologize to my girlfriend for making fun of her having bought aluminum reflectors to go behind our wall radiators.

# ? Jun 10, 2015 18:33

drukqs: Oct 15, 2010; wank wank you're a pro vaper I'm not wooptiedoo...

Safety Dance posted:

I bet I could find a high temperature foam board, cut it to fit various ICs in various Cambros, and sell it at immense markup to puddledorks, billing it as the best heat and water loss solution for your most longest, most temperature sensitive sous vide applications.

Hmm... I need to find suitable foam... I actually have wire I bought for robodick/ecig building that... might also be appropriate for a DIY foam cutter

# ? Jun 10, 2015 22:40

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

SubG posted:

Actually aluminium foil has really good reflectance that part of the IR spectrum. But the function of foil tented over a water bath isn't thermal insulation so it's not particularly relevant.

No, vapour pressure is the pressure at which the vapour is in equilibrium with the material's condensed phase, and is a function of temperature. There is no such thing as a temperature of evaporation.

Perhaps the thing you're trying to get at is partial pressure?

I wasn't using "temperature of evaporation" as a term of art, I couldn't remember the exact term I was looking for. You're right, it is partially a function of temperature, I was forgetting exactly how its measured, but its also a function of the inter-molecular forces which govern a given substance, which in the case of water is hydrogen bonds.

What I should have said was that the atmospheric pressure from being covered will be far above the vapor pressure.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 01:40

biggfoo: Sep 12, 2005; My god, it's full of !

Safety Dance posted:

I bet I could find a high temperature foam board, cut it to fit various ICs in various Cambros, and sell it at immense markup to puddledorks, billing it as the best heat and water loss solution for your most longest, most temperature sensitive sous vide applications.

Buy a big roll of Reflectix.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 02:07

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Jarmak posted:

I wasn't using "temperature of evaporation" as a term of art, I couldn't remember the exact term I was looking for. You're right, it is partially a function of temperature, I was forgetting exactly how its measured, but its also a function of the inter-molecular forces which govern a given substance, which in the case of water is hydrogen bonds.

No, vapour pressure is a function of temperature because of intermolecular forces. They're not a separate variable.

Jarmak posted:

What I should have said was that the atmospheric pressure from being covered will be far above the vapor pressure.

The atmospheric pressure is not appreciably different as a result of a foil tent. A foil tent will not turn your cambro into a pressure cooker. And of course the vapour pressure will be below atmospheric pressure. The condition where the vapour pressure equals atmospheric pressure is boiling. Which is not what we're talking about. Or at least it's not what I'm talking about. I'm not entirely sure I know what you're talking about and I have a sneaking suspicion you don't either.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 02:55

uPen: Jan 25, 2010; Zu Rodina!

SubG posted:

The industrial process that used to be used to produce celluloid resulted in a slightly acidic residue in the final product. This caused the celluloid to slowly degrade over time. One of the ways this manifested itself was increased shock sensitivity, which would sometimes result in ping pong balls spontaneously igniting when struck.

Man just imagine how much more fun table tennis would be if at any time the ball might spontaneously ignite when the other guy hits it at you.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 03:25

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

Jarmak posted:

Lol the two sheets it requires?

Yes the two sheets it requires every time you do a cook adds the gently caress up.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 04:46

Ultimate Mango: Jan 18, 2005

Mr. Wookums posted:

Yes the two sheets it requires every time you do a cook adds the gently caress up.

So reuse the sheets. It's not like they go bad.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 04:51

Submarine Sandpaper: May 27, 2007

While I agree, I haven't met anyone outside of boomers who reuse foil

# ? Jun 11, 2015 04:59

Plinkey: Aug 4, 2004; by Fluffdaddy

Uh, why aren't you guys just buying sheets of this and cutting it to the exact shape of your vizzler opening to float on top?

http://www.amazon.com/Smoothfoam-Sh...styrofoam+sheet

I think the normal cambro is 12.5" wide.

e: Or is it 12" deep?

# ? Jun 11, 2015 05:36

Chemmy: Feb 4, 2001

I just fill the container with water and cook stuff. I haven't run out of water yet.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 05:36

Captain Bravo: Feb 16, 2011; An Emergency Shitpost
has been deployed...

...but experts warn it is
just a drop in the ocean.

Same

# ? Jun 11, 2015 06:50

Steve Yun: Aug 7, 2003; I'm a parasitic landlord that needs to get a job instead of stealing worker's money. Make sure to remind me when I post.; Soiled Meat

Chemmy posted:

I just fill the container with water and cook stuff. I haven't run out of water yet.

You should cover the water with a thin layer of water to keep the water from evaporating

# ? Jun 11, 2015 07:17

kindablue: Nov 3, 2005; The crickets and the rust-beetles scuttled among the nettles of the sage thicket. "V�monos, amigos," he whispered, and threw the busted leather flintcraw over the loose weave of the saddlecock. And they rode on in the friscalating dusklight.

The father's day deal and this potential recipe from Chefsteps (and Tested) finally got me to buy an Anova.

http://www.tested.com/food/530164-tested-chefsteps-how-cook-amazing-ribs-without-smoke-or-fire/

As someone who just lost a backyard and moved into an apartment I'm really hopeful I can recapture some of the magic in my small space.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 07:26

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Steve Yun posted:

You should cover the water with a thin layer of water to keep the water from evaporating

You joke, but that's almost exactly what happens naturally and why evaporation isn't much of an issue for most s-v setups. The boundary layer that regulates the rate of evaporation is actually air saturated with water vapour, but that's pretty much what happens.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 07:28

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

SubG posted:

No, vapour pressure is a function of temperature because of intermolecular forces. They're not a separate variable.

The atmospheric pressure is not appreciably different as a result of a foil tent. A foil tent will not turn your cambro into a pressure cooker. And of course the vapour pressure will be below atmospheric pressure. The condition where the vapour pressure equals atmospheric pressure is boiling. Which is not what we're talking about. Or at least it's not what I'm talking about. I'm not entirely sure I know what you're talking about and I have a sneaking suspicion you don't either.

Holy poo poo guy, evaporation occurs when individual molecules become sufficiently energetic to escape the IM of the other molecules, thats why ln(P2/P1)=(ΔHvap/R)*(1T1−1T2). You don't need a loving pressure cooker to achieve pressures and gas concentrations which significantly slow evaporation at temperatures that are nearly half of the boiling point. Doing some really rough math in my head that should be something like 1/5 of the vapor pressure at 140 (which would mean its ~1/5 atm).

Under those conditions your vapor and liquid phases are going to quickly hit equilibrium and evaporation will slow to basically the equivilant of whatever water vapor/pressure you're losing through leakage, which relative to a volume of water the size of a sous vide vessel ranges from minimal to negligible depending on how anal you are with the tin foil.

Jarmak fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Jun 11, 2015

# ? Jun 11, 2015 16:21

Jose: Jul 24, 2007; Adrian Chiles is a broadcaster and writer

The Midniter posted:

That was MUCH more entertaining than I expected.

It was mostly an excuse to post the video

# ? Jun 11, 2015 20:58

Sextro: Aug 23, 2014

Guys what if I put my sous vide setup in a walk-fridge. Or maybe a freezer? I think that'll stop evaporation.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 22:39

Ultimate Mango: Jan 18, 2005

Sextro posted:

Guys what if I put my sous vide setup in a walk-fridge. Or maybe a freezer? I think that'll stop evaporation.

The only way is to fully submerge the setup.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 23:13

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

Jarmak posted:

Holy poo poo guy, evaporation occurs when individual molecules become sufficiently energetic to escape the IM of the other molecules, thats why ln(P2/P1)=(ΔHvap/R)*(1T1−1T2). You don't need a loving pressure cooker to achieve pressures and gas concentrations which significantly slow evaporation at temperatures that are nearly half of the boiling point. Doing some really rough math in my head that should be something like 1/5 of the vapor pressure at 140 (which would mean its ~1/5 atm).

Hey, you're the one that said it: `What I should have said was that the atmospheric pressure from being covered will be far above the vapor pressure'. There is no change in atmospheric pressure from being covered. If instead of objecting to my comments to that effect instead you intended to say...well, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. It all looks more or less like aggressive backpedaling from your original comment:

Jarmak posted:

This sounds dumb as hell, vapor pressure inside a crimped tinfoil cover will do way more to slow evaporation then ping pong balls floating on the top.

...which I replied to in part by pointing out that that's not what `vapour pressure' means. I guess if what you meant to say over the course of the past page is `yeah, that's not what vapour pressure means, I meant to say the partial pressure of the water vapour' then that's fine.

I mean it's still wrong, but at least then it wouldn't be the not-even-wrong the original statement was.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 23:18

nuru: Oct 10, 2012

I've read some things here about people cooking things in a bag, freezing the bag again, then somehow heating it up again before sear. Considering the amount of time it may take to thaw something in the water, does this save much time?

# ? Jun 11, 2015 23:20

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

nuru posted:

I've read some things here about people cooking things in a bag, freezing the bag again, then somehow heating it up again before sear. Considering the amount of time it may take to thaw something in the water, does this save much time?

It wouldn't take that much time to thaw in a waterbath(more so if you have a circulating SV setup), though the usefulness of doing this would depend on the amount of time between steps 2 and 3, i.e. not very useful if it's all being done the same day.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 23:28

SubG: Aug 19, 2004; It's a hard world for little things.

MasterFugu posted:

It wouldn't take that much time to thaw in a waterbath(more so if you have a circulating SV setup), though the usefulness of doing this would depend on the amount of time between steps 2 and 3, i.e. not very useful if it's all being done the same day.

Heat/chill/re-heat can also be useful if you're working around a variable serving time---don't know when guests will be arriving, everything's waiting on some labour-intensive kitchen task, whatever. Or if you've got more than one thing you want to do s-v (steak & eggs, say).

It's not really a time-saving thing so much as a time management thing---get it done ahead of time so it's one less thing to worry about later.

# ? Jun 11, 2015 23:36

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# ? May 30, 2024 16:14

nwin: Feb 25, 2002; make's u think

Looking to buy some cod loin or haddock. What temp should I go for here? I guess I'll throw some garlic powder, salt, pepper in the bag with a bit of olive oil, cook it for a while, and then sear it on each side and finish with a bit of lemon? Any other suggestions?

# ? Jun 12, 2015 03:06

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