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ElCondemn posted:I've proven it's stupid to talk about the merits of alternative education methods in a libertarian thread. You would need to talk about educating in order to do that
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Jun 11, 2015 06:28
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ElCondemn posted:Well off? please don't tell me you work in sales or IT or something
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Jun 11, 2015 06:28
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SedanChair posted:Mental health=thought control. Government-funded big pharma is preventing the neurologically atypical from undertaking lucrative shamanic careers. Scares me that this might be a common belief in the community. I should have explained myself better, how do libertarians reconcile treatments of specific conditions such as addiction or schizophrenia?
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Jun 11, 2015 06:34
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ElCondemn posted:After reading all these posts I think maybe the problem is you guys had great school experiences, or at least very different than mine. Okay okay, hold on a minute, because I actually have experience with both (to a degree) - I wasn't totally unschooled, but I did go to a Sudbury school, which is not that far off. I went there from 4th grade to 8th grade, and I do think there were some positives for me in particular, and I do think that for certain types of kids, later in life, that kind of education can work - I know some successful people who are happy with their lives who went there, who went on to real-rear end colleges and universities like Brown. I know some people who didn't necessarily get a standard education but for whom having the ability to focus on things that they really wanted to was fantastic. I also know kids who spent a lot of time doing a whole lot of loving nothing and having no real skills to speak of, and I was in danger of becoming one of those before I got pulled out and ended in public school. I was able to adapt really quickly back into booklearnin' and the rhythm of school (and got pretty consistently good grades, despite having missed the last third of elementary school and all of middle school) but man, I was totally hosed socially because the way a normal high school operates is so loving different socially than a place like that that I had no concept of how to interact with most of my peers. I do think that there are kids for whom that kind of thing can work (albeit in a more structured setting like a Sudbury rather than just straight up unschooling, where you DO have access to people who know how to teach math/reading/etc, i they want to), but I sure as gently caress wouldn't plan on doing that without knowing what my kid is like first and whether that would be a good fit or not - and that's with having experienced it myself. I sure as hell would not advocate it as the One True Educational Method, and I think our current system of school (assuming it's properly funded) is a hell of a lot better for the vast majority of kids.
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Jun 11, 2015 06:44
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Holy poo poo, I was home-schooled and it hosed me up. Why are you doing this thing that alienates your children from the institutions that everyone else shares and uses in their perception of work and social standing. I only got actual balance in my education when I enrolled in the local community college. My career aspects were hosed from the beginning with this and you are advocating something similar. This might be a reason you have a reactionary response here. It sounds like you are doing something incredibly unwise. I really hope you spring to an actual regimen with goals and tests to at least keep track of things,
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Jun 11, 2015 07:07
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ElCondemn posted:Yeah, we might be wrong, but I accept that risk. Bad parents do a lot worse than spending a lot of time teaching and providing life experience to their kids. What does it mean to you to "accept risk"? Does it mean you make a plan in case you fail? Does it mean you accept responsibility? I wonder, because here you are comparing yourself to "bad parents." I've got a bit of news for you: whatever you can think of to gently caress up your kid, there is somebody who has done something worse. So don't say "well I do better than bad parents." Because that's what bad parents say when they face the consequences of their gently caress-ups. e: gently caress, I'm not even against the concept of not sending your kids to school. I'm just amazed that people consider it when they are not master educators who don't have to work full time. woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 07:17
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Well this threads title took a prophetic turn didn't it? The liberty of the individual must be tempered by the interest of self preservation of the commons. Every citizen a vote, an education and a life free of obligation. If you have a commonly libertarian view you should probably pause and take stock. RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 07:25
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RuanGacho posted:Well this threads title took a prophetic turn didn't it? Mommy it turns out I just want to learn how to pick cotton, bag after bag of it.
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Jun 11, 2015 07:29
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SedanChair posted:What does it mean to you to "accept risk"? Does it mean you make a plan in case you fail? Eh that's what the free market is for. If the kids make poor decisions about whether to learn to do math or read above a middle school level, just sell them off to a farm or a mine or a textile factory or whatever for a tidy profit and try again until you get one that does it right and has a higher net present value than what sweatshops or brothels will pay to take them off your hands.
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Jun 11, 2015 07:32
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VitalSigns posted:Eh that's what the free market is for. If the kids make poor decisions about whether to learn to do math or read above a middle school level, just sell them off to a farm or a mine or a textile factory or whatever for a tidy profit and try again until you get one that does it right and has a higher net present value than what sweatshops or brothels will pay to take them off your hands. If you play your cards right, your kid won't even have learned that there are other kinds of life to aspire to! "Johnny how would you like to go to a place where you can play the apple-picking game all day?" "Yay!"
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Jun 11, 2015 07:38
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"I don't want to structure my child's education with a curriculum." "I'm not going to let them do nothing! I'm going to provide them with experiences!" Can you pick one?
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Jun 11, 2015 08:11
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Holy poo poo elcondemn you're a horrible person and I'm fully expecting your child to grow up and resent you for unschooling them
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Jun 11, 2015 09:19
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Wanamingo posted:Holy poo poo elcondemn you're a horrible person and I'm fully expecting your child to grow up and resent you for unschooling them I'm sure his children will turn out just fine and won't be permanently scarred from having a father who's using them in an attempt to undo his own messed up childhood and who constantly reminds them of how much better their life is, making them feel guilty for being unhappy despite all the misguided effort their father puts into them.
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Jun 11, 2015 10:32
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Hunchie posted:Scares me that this might be a common belief in the community. What do you mean?
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Jun 11, 2015 11:12
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ElCondemn posted:No matter what I say it won't be enough. You said yourself you don't know what maths you learned before algebra. Here's a hint, dipshit, it was all the tools you need to actually perform algebra!! Don't worry bros, through the magic of ~*Life Experience*~ I have been gifted with the ability to teach my kid the math I forgot. Are you aware tha you're nearly as dense as jrod, in his own loving thread?
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Jun 11, 2015 12:25
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ElCondemn posted:No matter what I say it won't be enough. Weren't you the guy who got his picture stolen by eBaumsWorld? Something like that?
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Jun 11, 2015 12:33
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Pope Guilty posted:Weren't you the guy who got his picture stolen by eBaumsWorld? Something like that? now there is a site I haven't heard about in a while
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Jun 11, 2015 12:38
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:now there is a site I haven't heard about in a while ElCondemn's kid will be spending most of his unclasstime there.
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Jun 11, 2015 12:43
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Series DD Funding posted:What do you mean? Ah poo poo, one more go. I guess what I'm getting at is how does libertarian deal with evidence that people don't act with rational self interest and how do they reconcile the state's role in helping these people from doing damage to both themselves and other people?
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Jun 11, 2015 13:12
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I mean I'm assuming that's Legalcondom with a name change based on his av.
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Jun 11, 2015 13:20
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Hunchie posted:Ah poo poo, one more go. The libertarians who are real into rational self interest are Chicago School types, who we don't see around here much. They basically say that it's a good enough approximation for their models, and also shut up. As for Austrian types like JRod, they don't really care if people act rationally. As long as those people are acting to achieve their goals (goals being anything you act toward achieving), then it's guaranteed to be a net gain according to their logic. They outright reject the state's role in everything including preventing harm, because if you chose to take a patent medicine that amounted to opium soaked in cheap bourbon instead of getting chemo, that just means you value your temporary mental well-being more than you value not having cancer, and who is the state to tell you you're wrong? And harming others won't happen because that would violate the NAP, something something markets will punish you.
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Jun 11, 2015 13:23
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ElCondemn posted:Well off? Sorry buddy youre a few states away from well off as an IT sysadmin. youre in Washington but youre not rocking a Microsoft title, or any other washington large corp title for that matter, which is unsurprising because even Microsoft wants a high school diploma on this side of the ocean, and if you aint working at Redmond you arent "well off" by IT standards in Washington because any non Microsoft "well off" work scurried on down to San Fran half a decade ago. Your self deception in all aspects of your decisions is admirable though.
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Jun 11, 2015 13:42
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Popular Thug Drink posted:please don't tell me you work in sales or IT or something He is a sys admin/devops, which if he had the tiniest amount of self awareness would realize he is lucky to have existed at a specific point in time and in one of the most vulnerable positions in IT with a rapidly shrinking window of mobility. But no, he likely credits himself for all his success like the rest of the crowd, and need do nothing more than just be his glorious self to remain a HENRY.
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Jun 11, 2015 13:42
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Nolanar posted:The libertarians who are real into rational self interest are Chicago School types, who we don't see around here much. They basically say that it's a good enough approximation for their models, and also shut up. Doesn't this NAP thing hinge on a rather poor understanding on how people make choices? and also a poor understanding of what it means to be healthly in general?
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Jun 11, 2015 14:28
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ElCondemn posted:If they can feed and clothe themselves, balance their finances, and communicate effectively I would consider it a success. But even if we presume a nightmare scenario, they somehow never learned to read, write or do basic arithmetic, they never learned to bathe, are essentially feral and can only communicate through a series of grunts and gestures, I can't imagine they would be much worse off than than the other stupid kids in class. Illuminating.
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Jun 11, 2015 14:40
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Hunchie posted:Doesn't this NAP thing hinge on a rather poor understanding on I'm going to have to stop you right there. You could finish this sentence with literally anything and it will always, always be true. Once you disappear down the rabbit hole of reasoning from first principles armed with phrases like "it's obvious that...", you lose any concept of limits on your own knowledge. This thread has seen libertarians pontificate on subjects from monetary policy to dentistry starting solely from "Humans Act," and they're always hilariously wrong, because they never stop to check if what they're saying lines up with reality. But yes, Austrian style libertarianism doesn't want to know how people make choices. If someone buys herbal supplements that don't actually have any herbs in them, a libertarian would assert that they assessed that possibility and deemed the possible rewards to outweigh the risks. There's no room for advertising, peer pressure, or societal factors to sway behavior, only individual choices in a vacuum.
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Jun 11, 2015 14:56
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Oh man this unschooling derail is hilarious. Sad, baffling and so many more things but still hilarious. I'll bet this guy turns tail and decides to enroll his kid in school by the time the kid is 3 or 4 years old. It's so easy to be idealistic when the kid is still cooking but the reality of being a parent once you actually have a kid or two gives you a completely different outlook. I can think of all kinds of pie in the sky things I wanted to do for my kids, I had all these ideas about how great of a parent I'd be and how my every decision as a father would be the right one. Then the screaming, making GBS threads little rear end in a top hat arrives and he or she is completely different than you expected and your entire world view changes. I'll eat the keyboard I'm typing on if this guy looks at his kid in a few years and thinks that he or she is capable of directing their own education and/or that mom & dad are qualified, capable and willing to take on the responsibility. Much like libertarianism these parenting fads usually evaporate once they experience reality.
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Jun 11, 2015 15:29
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Nolanar posted:I'm going to have to stop you right there. You could finish this sentence with literally anything and it will always, always be true. Once you disappear down the rabbit hole of reasoning from first principles armed with phrases like "it's obvious that...", you lose any concept of limits on your own knowledge. This thread has seen libertarians pontificate on subjects from monetary policy to dentistry starting solely from "Humans Act," and they're always hilariously wrong, because they never stop to check if what they're saying lines up with reality. Any choice people make is in their best interest, except to have a government. Because reasons. Also the other justification they use for the supplements is that the person clearly didn't value the information enough to pay the cost of acquiring it. If that cost happens to be government and they are willing to pay for it, they can't, because reasons. Freedom.
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Jun 11, 2015 17:02
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ElCondemn posted:Yeah, we might be wrong, but I accept that risk. Bad parents do a lot worse than spending a lot of time teaching and providing life experience to their kids. Have you prepared what you are going to tell your kid when it quite likely reaches the point that their future is completely hosed? Or are you going to coddle them through the rest of your life by giving them money and nepotistic jobs they wouldn't have qualified for otherwise?
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Jun 11, 2015 18:07
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Nolanar posted:This thread has seen libertarians pontificate on subjects from monetary policy to [b]dentistry[\b] starting solely from "Humans Act," and they're always hilariously wrong, because they never stop to check if what they're saying lines up with reality. Jrod lowering his mercury intake levels by ripping out perfectly good tooth fillings and drastically upping his mercury intake levels is peak austrian rationality.
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Jun 11, 2015 18:28
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Hunchie posted:Doesn't this NAP thing hinge on a rather poor understanding on how people make choices? and also a poor understanding of what it means to be healthly in general? In a perfect world libertarianism and NAP would work. See, false advertising or aggressive marketing for snake oil violates the non-aggression principle. In a perfect world we would all have perfect access to perfect information. We do not live in that world so there are people out there making their living convincing people to buy poo poo they know doesn't work. It also illustrates the doublethink that is present. "You may not take my property unless I willingly give it to you." But would you willingly give it to somebody who was lying to you and trying to scam you out of your property? No you would not and that's why regulations and consumer protection exists. It might seem like a good deal at the time but you have poo poo like used car salesmen that will happily sell you a wreck they patched together just enough to get twelve more miles out of it as if it were a reliable beast that would last you for years. If I exchange $X for a functioning, reliable car and instead am given a pile of scrap metal that vaguely resembles a car you're damned right I want some kind of government agency that's going to go "OK salesman give him the money back you hosed up."
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Jun 11, 2015 19:36
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The world is already filled with comically evil people who try to gently caress everybody up all the time, and we have laws. How would that improve without governments and laws?
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Jun 11, 2015 19:38
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President Kucinich posted:Jrod lowering his mercury intake levels by ripping out perfectly good tooth fillings and drastically upping his mercury intake levels is peak austrian rationality. It's one of my favorite Jrodisms. "Hmm, these two dentists disagree on whether I should get this expensive procedure done. I'm pretty sure the one who says it's not necessary is trying to scam me out of my money, because the statist ADA agrees with him." Etalommi posted:Any choice people make is in their best interest, except to have a government. Because reasons. The Reasons in this case boil down to "forming a government violates the NAP, because it forces people to follow rules they didn't personally agree to." So the real crime is wanting to know what's in your medicine in the first place. Grand Theft Autobot posted:The world is already filled with comically evil people who try to gently caress everybody up all the time, and we have laws. How would that improve without governments and laws? Bad people are the state's fault. If the state weren't around to protect those bandits with limited liability laws, the Market would take care of the problem. Obviously nobody would do business with them, and they'd go bankrupt!
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Jun 11, 2015 19:46
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:The world is already filled with comically evil people who try to gently caress everybody up all the time, and we have laws. How would that improve without governments and laws? In those rare moments when they're not just using the ideology as cellophane-thin cover for naked greed, the usual justification I hear from libertarians is a poorly-articulated neo-Rousseuian mishmash of how artificial systems and societal creations (ie: government) corrupts otherwise decent people, and also how "that" just wouldn't happen in a properly free society (whatever "that" happens to be) because proper market forces rebalance blah blah blah now let me tell you about an even bigger injustice: age of consent laws.
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Jun 11, 2015 19:57
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President Kucinich posted:Jrod lowering his mercury intake levels by ripping out perfectly good tooth fillings and drastically upping his mercury intake levels is peak austrian rationality. This was absolutely peak jrod. It never got better than this, than him vehemently defending his choice to spend thousands of dollars to do nothing because his dentist told him so while the vast majority said that was stupid. It's just such a "no gently caress you dad" moment.
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Jun 11, 2015 20:38
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"Peak JRod" is a myth. We'll keep developing more sophisticated schadenfreude extraction methods, and the global JRod supply will keep going up for the rest of our lives.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:17
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Nolanar posted:"Peak JRod" is a myth. We'll keep developing more sophisticated schadenfreude extraction methods, and the global JRod supply will keep going up for the rest of our lives. As long as Jrod can quote, word for word, another Libertarian, we'll never reach peak Jrod.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:20
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Caros posted:This was absolutely peak jrod. It never got better than this, than him vehemently defending his choice to spend thousands of dollars to do nothing because his dentist told him so while the vast majority said that was stupid. What page does this start on?
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Jun 11, 2015 22:09
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Grand Theft Autobot posted:What page does this start on? If you arent phone posting just do a search through my post history for the word amalgam and you'll find it. It's beautiful.
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Jun 11, 2015 22:27
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jrodefeld posted:I inexplicably had mercury fillings put in my mouth as a child (non-toxic composite fillings were available my entire lifetime). Many healthcare professionals are concerned about cumulative health effects of mercury over years as it enters the bloodstream. Trace elements break off from the filings over time. Needless to say, I've since had them drilled out and replaced with non-toxic composite fillings. Am I being a zealous nut for having concern? No, I would say I'm being prudent and smart. Here you go. I left in that last bit to remind everyone that this was a derail off of Jrod being totally-not-an-antivaxxer-but-it-really-makes-you-think-doesn't-it.
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Jun 11, 2015 22:41
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