Great White Hope posted:It doesn't matter if Kat's concern is valid or not, just as Anthony's "because reasons" aren't especially important. Actually, they are especially important, because literally dropping out of a child's life with no regards to their psychological state for three years is not something that can be just brushed off, especially if you literally just drop back in without warning and proceed to take actions that, to an outside view, seem tailor designed to isolate them from their social cohort. quote:Kat's blinded by anger, and as such is acting in a way seems to be hurting Annie, and until Annie shrugged her off, she didn't care. She still might not. Kat is not hurting Annie, Annie is hurting herself because she is in a compromised psychological state. quote:Now, will Kat respond by getting angrier, or will she realize "Oh crap, my friend is hurting and this time it's my fault"? This is an extremely unhealthy position to take because neither Kat or Annie is at fault here. YF-23 posted:Annie never lost her "social support network". Actually, this is exactly what has happened so far, as Anthony's actions have directly severed regular interaction with her entire social group.
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Jun 17, 2015 21:05
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That is not allegory. In fact you seem to be confused by words like "motif," "history," and "example". Acknowledging that Reynard has a narrative history is not a moral argument, it is a basic step in analysis. Ok, you've acknowledged Renard's narrative history- what next? Think man, think. What, exactly, is Tom trying to say? How do you respond to that? In fact, I'd say that you are the "otherkin" here, unable to understand that all fiction is inevitably, invariably, a commentary on reality. To suppose otherwise is to believe that Tom is peeking through a magic mirror into some other realm and jotting what he sees to paper. Gunnerkrigg Court does not exist in a vacuum- there is some idea in all facets of it that Tom is trying to impart, or even infuses his work subconsciously. Likewise we the audience are going to take some idea from his work, that may or may not be what he intended. But in all cases those ideas are going to be informed by and created by and contrasted to our experiences in reality. Relating to a fictional character, or being unable to relate, or focusing on their actions that have a direct, real world parallel is not the sign of a broken mind, you dumbass. I also don't see you calling out the people who consider Anthony to be abusive (and perhaps rightly, are harping on the point)- you could very easily diminish their points into "he abused a girl. He abused a girl. He abused a girl. Anthony abused a girl", but to do that would mark you to be an extreme rear end in a top hat. Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jun 17, 2015 |
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Jun 17, 2015 21:14
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mr. stefan posted:Attempting to reestablish a social support network with an abuse victim is a generally helpful action, yes. How about breaking into the abuser's house to try to dig up dirt on him?
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Jun 17, 2015 21:16
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So are you saying that when Annie asked Kat to please not break into her father's house and Kat went "Whatever" Annie wasn't upset? Kat is not intentionally hurting Annie, but to pretend she isn't is being delusional. Just as Anthony is responsible for his mistakes, as well-intended as they could end up being, Kat has made a mistake with good intentions. I'm not damning her or saying Annie should never, ever, ever associate with her again, just saying she messed up and hurt her friend. People screw up, it's kinda one of the things we're best at.
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Jun 17, 2015 21:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:E: I'm guessing that she has some epiphany about her anger. Not in the sense that it's wrong to go against Anthony, nyt this needs to ne solved like everything else (through understanding). Of course she'll regret it as soon as she's finishes speaking, but isn't that typically the case?
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Jun 17, 2015 21:35
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mr. stefan posted:Kat is not hurting Annie, Annie is hurting herself because she is in a compromised psychological state. What makes you think Annie is in a compromised psychological state? The past couple month's of comics have been a pretty straightforward read and I'm not sure what all the discussion is about. Annie's father returns to her life, and is a clear, straightforward, known quantity against the capriciousness and randomness of the Court and the Forest. Even if Anthony hadn't abandoned her, Annie's reluctance to deal with Kat, and her friend's schemes to try and 'rescue' her from this situation, is obvious and well-grounded.
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Jun 17, 2015 21:56
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2015 22:01
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That would be the thing to inspire an epiphany, yes. It might ne an elaboration on A Bad Start (not coincidentally a chapter where Annie is "imprisoned"? Fine, maybe allegory wasn't quite the right word. But you're the one who isn't actually engaging with the work and actually considering what the themes and events mean, other than recognizing that they exist. Treating art as alt-history is bad, but the only one doing that was you.
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Jun 17, 2015 22:11
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2015 22:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Anthony embodies the Court, by the way, so your argument doesn't hold water. Support your argument. For the record I pretty much agree with you, but come on man. Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jun 17, 2015 |
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Jun 17, 2015 22:21
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Fister Roboto posted:So if this was a real-life case of abuse, would anything that Annie's friends are doing be helpful to the situation? It is in the sense that under Anthony's care, Annie becomes withdrawn, lacks self-confidence and doesn't adjust as well to interpersonal situations/conflict. Compare Annie from the start of the comic, to after her adventures in the forest and with her new friends at the court, to now. He is obviously a negative influence on her. Though in reality, you can't force people to help themselves. She has to realize what Anthony is doing to her and that while he isn't evil or anything like that, she needs to be her own person and not let others define her. Kat is a fiercely loyal friend and is doing this to try to help Annie, just as I'm sure Anthony thinks he's acting in her best interest, but it's true both of them are failing her right now. Annie might realize this, but I think she won't be able to until after a great amount of damage will be done to Annie's other relationships, particularly Kat. Otherwise what would be the point of Anthony's introduction from a narrative standpoint if everything returns to the status quo? Learning that the people you love are flawed(because everyone is) and not necessarily the best examples of how you should live your own life is a lesson Annie needs to learn. Kat needs to learn to listen to her friends. When someone is suffering the worst thing you can do is deny them agency, make decisions for them and not pay attention to the things they are telling you. Basically, everything is a train wreck and is pretty painful to read as a result. Kudos to Tom. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Jun 17, 2015 |
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Jun 17, 2015 22:33
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Anthony embodies the Court, by the way, so your argument doesn't hold water. Anthony can be read as both a symbol and a character. One doesn't invalidate the other, which is sort of what you keep implying.
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Jun 17, 2015 22:36
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:If you're not planning to read the comic, there are several visual signifiers that show it. The character in question also says so herself. Also this is s pretty long-running arc, so there's other signifiers and stuff we can infer. Your unfounded assertions "don't hold water". Your simplistic thinking that every character in the comic is either PRO-COURT or PRO-FOREST is myopic and fails to take into account the things we actually know about the characters in question. Annie had a life, she had a family, she knows she was responsible for her mother's death, and by proxy, her father's distance to her. Then she was thrust into a world that doesn't make sense, constantly fights against her, makes her restrain her inner nature, and makes it difficult to separate fantasy from reality. Her father is a bastion of sanity in comparison to life at Gunnerkrigg, and her sole chance to reconnect with her past and her old life. It's far too easy to think of Gunnerkrigg as some kind of whimsical magic steampunk comic. It requires some subtlety and nuance to put yourself in the shoes of the characters and see if they really want to spend their lives in a magical steampunk life.
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Jun 17, 2015 22:50
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Anthony can be read as both a symbol and a character. One doesn't invalidate the other, which is sort of what you keep implying. that sounds like otherkinism to me, pardner 
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Jun 17, 2015 22:59
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Jun 17, 2015 23:04
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I have no idea how otherkin applies to this at all, I must be very dumb. I am still very pumped for Eglamore and Tony.
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Jun 17, 2015 23:08
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Alright well that was an anticlimax. Really I may have gotten pretty ranty about Tony getting put in his place but really I was just hoping for something new to happen with this situation. Like the smallest crack in annie's trust appearing or something. Just seeing Tony continue to drag Annie around and remain completely silent about anything and keeping the upper hand in this situation is getting frustrating for me. I've been forgiving of Gunnerkrigg's pacing issues and lack of antagonist/conflict but this is just not what I wanted.
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Jun 17, 2015 23:19
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Jun 17, 2015 23:22
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Alas, but fortsooth,
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Jun 17, 2015 23:27
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Sorry, what I meant to say was: why are you talking like a character from a Victorian-era bodice ripper?
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Jun 17, 2015 23:28
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The thing is that's not the actual comic. That's better, thank you.
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Jun 17, 2015 23:30
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Acne Rain posted:Alright well that was an anticlimax. Well, there kind of has to be a crack already there. If she trusted Tony absolutely, she wouldn't have deceived him and secretly passed control of Renard to Kat.
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Jun 17, 2015 23:32
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The thing is that's not the actual comic. This is a really weird way to think about storytelling, by the way. If you were, for example, a Star Trek TNG fan, it would make perfect sense to point to this or that episode of evidence of some assertion. But if a story is still being told, and we don't know the ending, there's no specific reason to believe that what we're being told is canon. If readers of a half-finished comic could simply extrapolate all the meaning and significance of events in the comic from what's already been written, there would be no suspense, and no reason to continue writing or reading the comic. It's pretty clear that Annie is intent on siding with her father. It doesn't make sense to try and come up with evidence for a hypothesis that she doesn't want to side with her father. She doesn't want Kat and the "crew" interfering, she acquiesces to all of her father's demands, and insists that people stop grilling him on where he's been and what's wrong with him. Your evidence of "signifiers and stuff" is not useful on a literary or argumentative level, and ho-huming people and assuming they haven't read the comic is even less so.
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Jun 17, 2015 23:45
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The Court has a lot of traits that absolutely don't mesh with the idea that Anthony is its avatar. I mean, seriously, the Court employs Doctor Disaster to teach its children.
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Jun 17, 2015 23:56
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Remember when Annie got a mysterious phone call from her father, insisted everything was fine and that people shouldn't worry about her, but it was quickly revealed that she was actually having a breakdown and was painfully suppressing it into a stoic facade? Remember how in the last chapter, when Kat asked Annie why she would "agree to all this", Annie started to break down into tears but suppressed it and returned to speaking formally? These are the reasons you should not believe Annie is okay with the current situation with her father, despite her calm insistence that she is. (I don't think she's freaking mind controlled or anything, it's clearly psychological, but come on.)
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Jun 18, 2015 00:04
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BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Dec 1, 2016 |
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Jun 18, 2015 00:09
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Tony backpedaling out of dinner so quickly is disappointing. also
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Jun 18, 2015 00:50
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Kat is not blinded by anger. She's the person who is closest to seeing and finding out what Anthony is doing to hurt Annie. She's the one that is stopping Anthony from brushing all of this under the carpet. The events of Divine happened. Anthony is keeping it a secret. So the potential at least exists that Anthony tried to murder Annie at least once and may well try it again. Kat investigating Anthony is literally a matter of life and death. By all rights, if the full facts we as readers know were known to the characters, Anthony should be in prison while a full investigation is carried out. The lesson of this whole thing is not gonna be that Kat should have left things alone. Even ignoring all that, Annie has no right to control Kat's contact with Renard. None. If her dad is choosing to keep Renard prisoner in his house, then she is fully entitled to break in, gently caress his privacy. Fangz fucked around with this message at 01:25 on Jun 18, 2015 |
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Jun 18, 2015 01:19
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I think it's reasonable to guess/assume that Anthony is here teaching and reigning Annie in on the wishes of the administration of Gunnerkrigg Court, people like the Headmaster who have different motivations than many of the individual teachers and staff.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:31
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Welp my copy of Traveller arrived. ...yup.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:31
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I wish there was an easier way to get it in the UK rather than ship it from the US for crazy shipping rates + possible import taxes
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Jun 18, 2015 02:40
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dyzzy posted:Welp my copy of Traveller arrived. How was it?
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Jun 18, 2015 02:42
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dyzzy posted:Welp my copy of Traveller arrived. Haha this was me when I got it from him at MCM. For anyone wondering, the tone is less like Annie in the Forest and more like Skywatcher and the Angel.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:50
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Dammerung posted:How was it? It was good! Just like the Annie in the Forest stuff the art is great. The story kinda threw me for a loop though, it wasn't exactly what I expected.
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Jun 18, 2015 02:50
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dyzzy posted:It was good! Just like the Annie in the Forest stuff the art is great. The story kinda threw me for a loop though, it wasn't exactly what I expected. Does the sheep do anything of note in the story? It looks pretty cute!
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Jun 18, 2015 03:05
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Fangz posted:Kat is not blinded by anger. She's the person who is closest to seeing and finding out what Anthony is doing to hurt Annie. She's the one that is stopping Anthony from brushing all of this under the carpet. If Kat's not blinded by anger, then she's flat-out being stupid. She has to know that if she pushes Annie to choose between Anthony and her, Annie will choose Anthony. Instead, Kat was surprised. Annie doesn't have the right to control Kat's contact with Renard, no, but she does have the right to ask something of Kat, and she has the right to be upset if Kat denies her. If Kat's goal is to destroy Anthony no matter what, salt the earth, leave everything burning in her wake, then sure, she's not making any mistakes, but I'm fairly certain she doesn't want to destroy Annie in the process.
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Jun 18, 2015 03:58
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Fangz posted:So the potential at least exists that Anthony tried to murder Annie at least once and may well try it again. Yes, the potential exists. This is not an incorrect statement. This, ladies and gentlemen, is what we call jumping to conclusions.
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Jun 18, 2015 04:29
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Dammerung posted:Does the sheep do anything of note in the story? It looks pretty cute! No sheep appear in the actual story, curse you Tom 
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Jun 18, 2015 04:49
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dyzzy posted:No sheep appear in the actual story, curse you Tom Darn! I am all about cute, fluffy animals. Maybe next time.
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Jun 18, 2015 05:51
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:That is not allegory. In fact you seem to be confused by words like "motif," "history," and "example". Acknowledging that Reynard has a narrative history is not a moral argument, it is a basic step in analysis. Words mean things. Arbitrarily using words to mean different things than their accepted meaning makes you bad at language, and a bad communicator. An idea is worth nothing if it is poorly communicated.
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Jun 18, 2015 06:34
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