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GlyphGryph posted:I do find the focus on gun control among certain people to be super weird right now, as if the sort of gun control those people advocate would have stopped this or even impacted it. This whole case is an outlier. Gun control wouldn't have stopped this. Mental health access wouldn't have stopped this. Hell, I don't even think armed guards would have had much of an effect. This is that one honest to goodness focused individual who just wanted to kill people. He was going to do this any way he could. The only thing that really could have stopped this kid, once his mind was set on this, is basically Minority Report.
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Jun 20, 2015 01:52
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JT Jag posted:He was up for felony charges and shouldn't have been capable of purchasing a firearm, better screening might have stopped him. Especially if he purchased it, not family like earlier reported. Gun control would have literally stopped this crime (but increased access to mental health care could have helped with his very real problems before anything got this far).
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Jun 20, 2015 01:52
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Popular Thug Drink posted:he most likely was. it turns out the kinds of people who hatch mass murder plans and then carry them out also face acute psychiatric problems which they generally seek treatment for. this is why it's easy for people to commit the causation/correlation fallacy, thinking that mental illness drives mass murder rather than the majority of mass murderers already presenting some kind of mental illness due to a root cause not to mention that huge swaths of the population are, in the technical sense, mentally ill the real issue is that groups like white supremacists benefit greatly from troubled personalities like this because they are very easy to mold and shape
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Jun 20, 2015 01:53
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Crain posted:This whole case is an outlier. Gun control wouldn't have stopped this. Mental health access wouldn't have stopped this. Hell, I don't even think armed guards would have had much of an effect. that and increasingly vocal criticism of racial hatred from a majority of rural whites
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Jun 20, 2015 01:53
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Bill still won't call it terrorism, I see.
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Jun 20, 2015 01:53
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Tender Bender posted:I wish someone would call out GOP politicians every time they use a shooting to push their pro-gun agenda by saying we shouldn't increase gun control and that Obama is using the shooting to push his gun control agenda. I'm not sure how to word that sentiment in a more eloquent way but you get what I mean. I was under the impression that we and many others do call them out pretty reliably, we just don't have any way to stop them? Also most of us are seemingly agreed that the NRA can go to hell along with the people who support it's insanity. But in this particular case, when there's a much larger elephant in the room, it seems like a bit of a weird focus. I guess there's enough room to talk about all the different stuff though, and if he really did acquire a gun because of a lack of regulation/enforcement then that discussion has a place at the table. Crain posted:This whole case is an outlier. Gun control wouldn't have stopped this. Mental health access wouldn't have stopped this. Hell, I don't even think armed guards would have had much of an effect. Breaking up the network of white supremacy that radicalized him, and doing something about the constant violent, racist rhetoric that meant no one reported his plans because seemingly talking about killing black folks is just socially acceptable where he's from, those might have helped, no? GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jun 20, 2015 |
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Jun 20, 2015 01:54
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Joementum posted:Bill still won't call it terrorism, I see. Keep holding their feet to the fire, Joe. 
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Jun 20, 2015 01:54
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fade5 posted:So yeah, Bill O'Reilly is somehow correct: a literal terrorist, same as ISIS and al-Qaeda. I'm just fine with treating this rear end in a top hat like we do ISIS. O'reilly is basically the good cop to the rest of Fox News (sans Shepard)'s bad cop. His enormous wad of conservative cred means he doesn't need to pander to the insane, and as part of the old guard he holds some less-than-fringe views. He's still an rear end in a top hat, but he's not a lying disingenuous rear end in a top hat along the lines of Beck and Hannity.
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Jun 20, 2015 01:56
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Berke Negri posted:not to mention that huge swaths of the population are, in the technical sense, mentally ill yes, which is disturbing because increasingly white supremacist groups is less "drunken bearded men hanging out around a campfire in the woods" and more "easily accessible echo chamber websites which ostensibly value free speech"
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Jun 20, 2015 01:56
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Crain posted:This whole case is an outlier. Gun control wouldn't have stopped this. Sure haven't been people doing this in loving Australia, which is a hotbed of violent racism to be quite frank, since they made it so you have to actually provide a real reason to own a gun. Especially handguns. It's a funny thing too, because Australian gun ownership rate is somewhere between New Jersey and Massachusetts and almost double that of Hawaii. They don't have no guns at all, but they have serious control and shockingly enough some random disturbed loser can't easily get a gun.
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Jun 20, 2015 01:59
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yeah I normally love to talk about gun safety right after school shootings because it is necessary. That being said, I think race trumps guns as "issue that needs to be talk about in danger of being overriden" in this particular event. And focusing on mental illness is a smokescreen in this case to just avoid talking about race. Also y'all dissed pretty hard on a black feminist earlier in the thread talking about the need for feminists in general to come together on poo poo like this, but she was right. One of the problems of the feminist community is that calls for inclusiveness typically go one way (that is, white women getting black women to help them, and not the other way around.)
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Jun 20, 2015 02:00
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GlyphGryph posted:I was under the impression that we and many others do call them out pretty reliably, we just don't have any way to stop them? Also most of us are seemingly agreed that the NRA can go to hell along with the people who support it's insanity. Popular Thug Drink posted:that and increasingly vocal criticism of racial hatred from a majority of rural whites I was going to include this but it seemed too wordy, but these fall under the million and a half little to big things that society/family/friends could/should have done to keep him from being radicalized. He should have stayed in school. His parents should have kept better tabs on him. His friend/roommate should have reported him. His high school guidance counselor should have tried to get him into a vocational school since he was dropping out. He shouldn't have gone on /pol/ or reddit or whatever racist bullshit he clearly read too much of. People should have stopped being racist in 1964. Etc. Etc. Etc. These are all societal things that no one can legislate away. I'm specifically talking about things we can legislate. Better gun control laws with better reporting. Better access to mental health care. Things like that. As a soceity of laws we can only legislate so much to try and mitigate those situations where society fails in some way. This was one of those cases where there was little that could have been done. He was going to kill someone. Gun or not, Mental health care or not, he was at a point where the only things in his way (now that society had failed) weren't going to help.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:05
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yes but less guns and more mental health care would be a positive
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Jun 20, 2015 02:07
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Oh hey happy page 88 everyone 
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Jun 20, 2015 02:10
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Especially if he purchased it, not family like earlier reported. Gun control would have literally stopped this crime (but increased access to mental health care could have helped with his very real problems before anything got this far). What chitoryu meant is that CURRENT gun control laws should have prevented this if indeed he bought the gun himself from a gun store in April. If that's accurate, it's either lag or a screwup in the NICS system or state submittal of documents. Or maybe the store is criminally shady and didn't perform the check at all or perform it correctly or whatever. Also, shocking that he didn't check "yes" in the box about using illegal substances! Similarly, under federal law, Cho, the Virginia Tech mass murderer, should not have been allowed to buy firearms. Virginia's local law wording didn't match federal wording, and so the state failed to report this his disqualification to the federal background check system. As a result, Cho purchased firearms after undergoing a federal background check, because the state failed to notify the feds that he met federal criteria to be banned from gun purchases.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:10
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GlyphGryph posted:I do find the focus on gun control among certain people to be super weird right now, as if the sort of gun control those people advocate would have stopped this or even impacted it. Thing is after Sandy Hook the net result was pointless and ineffective reactionary laws passed in a half dozen states tops, often with hilarious trackbacks from stuff pushed during "emergency" midnight sessions. This predictably upset everyone involved, but no one more than the ones who wanted to get pointless and ineffective reactionary laws in on a a federal level. Especially since both sides know from experience that if you don't get that kind of thing through while people are too shocked to think, it never gets through at all. Edit: I mean, it was a lot nicer in terms of "use tragedy to get barely related stuff you wanted anyway passed" than 9/11, but still sad how much it came from people who like to claim they call that poo poo out.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:11
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Nintendo Kid posted:Sure haven't been people doing this in loving Australia, which is a hotbed of violent racism to be quite frank, since they made it so you have to actually provide a real reason to own a gun. Especially handguns. Yes, agreed but with this caveat: I don't think a lack of a gun, any gun, would have stopped him. He seems like the kid who would have found plans online to make pipe bombs, or a homemade gun, or hell even just going and using a bladed weapon. This guy wanted to kill. joeburz posted:yes but less guns and more mental health care would be a positive Yes. On the whole, as a result of this, we should do these things.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:14
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Maybe last-barrier legislation of the sort you're describing shouldn't be our go to for trying to fix problems? A band-aid, at most. Laws of the sort you seem to want to talk about don't fix social problems. You can't use laws to forcefully cut off the final mile of a society that thinks something is okay - prohibition is a testament to that. That doesn't mean the government and it's laws can't be a powerful and useful force for change, but I'd hazard a guess that most of what it can and has done that is useful in preventing things like this have less to do with passing new laws and more to do with innovative enforcement, cultural messaging, and a chunk of society dedicated to supporting their efforts. Maybe what we need is more super heroes beating up racists, that seems to have helped against the KKK. More government force in pursuing those who issue racist threats. A willingness on the part of the media to not just call out but openly mock racists for their rhetoric. Make the whole thing unattractive in every way. We've done it before and had success. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Jun 20, 2015 |
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Jun 20, 2015 02:15
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Crain posted:I was going to include this but it seemed too wordy, but these fall under the million and a half little to big things that society/family/friends could/should have done to keep him from being radicalized. So you're saying we need a political leader to articulate that the upbringing of children in our society is everyone's responsibility, or, to put it another way, that raising responsible citizens... takes a village.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:21
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GlyphGryph posted:Breaking up the network of white supremacy that radicalized him, and doing something about the constant violent, racist rhetoric that meant no one reported his plans because seemingly talking about killing black folks is just socially acceptable where he's from, those might have helped, no? *Mumbles something about free speech* I've heard that far too many times already today
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Jun 20, 2015 02:22
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GlyphGryph posted:Maybe last-barrier legislation of the sort you're describing shouldn't be our go to for trying to fix problems? A band-aid, at most. Laws of the sort you seem to want to talk about don't fix social problems. You can't use laws to forcefully cut off the final mile of a society that thinks something is okay - prohibition is a testament to that. I agree. It's a lovely system that we seem to be stuck in. And maybe trying to enforce some kind of social legislation would go far enough (given enough time) to curb the majority of problems. I mean, look at Germany. They have heavy handed laws about Nazi rhetoric, symbolism, and holocaust denial. Does it get rid of all their Neo-Nazis? No, but it really pushes them into the fringes of society and just makes them go elsewhere at the very least. And you know what, maybe we should finally push really loving hard for strict, comprehensive, lock it the gently caress down gun control. What people have been saying just made me realize something (especially after Cho was mentioned) that kind of refutes one of the NRA talking points: All these spree/mass shooters seem to buy their guns new. We keep hearing this. Cho shouldn't have been able to buy his guns, Roof shouldn't have been able to buy his guns, The aurora shooter, etc. With the recent exception of Sandy Hook who actually went and stole his mother's guns. These people wouldn't have been able to do much of anything had they actually have been prevented, in many cases as the laws state, from buying their guns.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:23
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Crain posted:Yes, agreed but with this caveat: I don't think a lack of a gun, any gun, would have stopped him. He seems like the kid who would have found plans online to make pipe bombs, or a homemade gun, or hell even just going and using a bladed weapon. This guy wanted to kill. Pipe bombs have a habit of failing to work or blowing up way too early. Homemade guns tend to only fire a few times before they fall apart. If that dude went swinging with a knife we'd probably be talking about a whole bunch of people slashed up but likely only one or two deaths. That gun he bought though, now that's a reliable as gently caress way to kill 9 people. Easier to transport too, except as compared to the knife. It's the reason why the violent crime rate in say London is significantly higher than most of the US but the successful homicide rate is way lower: guns are simply reliable ways to do it.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:24
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Nintendo Kid posted:Pipe bombs have a habit of failing to work or blowing up way too early. Homemade guns tend to only fire a few times before they fall apart. If that dude went swinging with a knife we'd probably be talking about a whole bunch of people slashed up but likely only one or two deaths. Love above. I'm changing my mind on this one.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:26
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Crain posted:
It is pretty scary that so many of our gun laws to keep guns out of the hands of people that, by law, are too dangerous or erratic to buy a gun depend on either the justice system (lol) or the healthcare system (fuckin lol) working efficiently and properly to report accurate information to NICS.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:27
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https://twitter.com/SteveKornacki/status/612051240650981376quote:SC state Rep. Todd Rutherford just told @chrislhayes that a Republican state rep, Doug Brannon, will sponsor bill to remove Confederate flag On Chris Hayes' show this came up during the segment with Rutherford. Brannon later either called or was called by them and it was confirmed he'll introduce the bill in December.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:35
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Von Sloneker posted:https://twitter.com/SteveKornacki/status/612051240650981376 related: a pro-click http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/take-down-the-confederate-flag-now/396290/ mlmp08 fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Jun 20, 2015 |
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Jun 20, 2015 02:36
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Crain posted:This whole case is an outlier. Gun control wouldn't have stopped this. Mental health access wouldn't have stopped this. Hell, I don't even think armed guards would have had much of an effect. To be fair, one of the many responses to the Oklahoma City Bombing was to make it harder to create the fertilizer-based bomb used in the attack, not just cracking down on right-wing militias.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:36
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Unless it sails through unopposed, that timing will make it an issue in the primary.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:38
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Nintendo Kid posted:Pipe bombs have a habit of failing to work or blowing up way too early. Homemade guns tend to only fire a few times before they fall apart. If that dude went swinging with a knife we'd probably be talking about a whole bunch of people slashed up but likely only one or two deaths. Also the kid couldn't case the joint to steal some drugs without someone calling the cops. The idea he could build a bomb that would have killed 9 people is completely disconnected from reality.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:38
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Joementum posted:So you're saying we need a political leader to articulate that the upbringing of children in our society is everyone's responsibility, or, to put it another way, that raising responsible citizens... takes a village. Of course the increasing atomization of society due to the creative destruction of social assets carried out by neoliberals makes this harder to do, no matter what your economic status is. Indeed the very principles of neoliberalism are designed to deflect criticism away from structural issues that breed violent racists like this. If there's no society, how can we be responsible in some way for this tragedy? If we as a society can't admit that we bear some measure of responsibility for racism in this country we can't ever begin to address the systemic issues.
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Jun 20, 2015 02:43
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Of course MSNBC puts the segment up right after I just looked there and couldn't find it: http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/state-rep.--remove-confederate-flag-468594243695
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Jun 20, 2015 02:44
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mlmp08 posted:related: a pro-click I read that last night and it's a hell of a piece, as to be expected from TNC. E: quote:More than any individual actor, in recent history, Roof honored his flag in exactly the manner it always demanded—with human sacrifice. Coates is a national treasure. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jun 20, 2015 |
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Jun 20, 2015 03:04
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Everyone read the Charlie Pierce one too, right? In case not: http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/politics/news/a35793/charleston-shooting-discussion/ quote:Not to think about these things is to betray the dead. Not to speak of these things is to dishonor them. Let Nikki Haley, the governor of South Carolina, look out her window at the flag of treason that is flown proudly at her state capitol and think about these things, and speak of them, before she pronounces herself so puzzled at how something like this could happen in South Carolina, the home office of American sedition.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:21
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My brain is currently wondering if we should deny rights to anyone who revels in confederate apartheid, climate-change deniers, pro-gun rights activists in the near future, just to see if said brain would be satiated of it's tranquil fury.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:32
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So Rick Perry referred to the Charleston shooting as a "drug induced accident".
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Jun 20, 2015 03:36
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Grouchio posted:My brain is currently wondering if we should deny rights to anyone who revels in confederate apartheid, climate-change deniers, pro-gun rights activists in the near future, just to see if said brain would be satiated of it's tranquil fury. No
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Jun 20, 2015 03:36
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Von Sloneker posted:Of course MSNBC puts the segment up right after I just looked there and couldn't find it: So the guys friend had to die (it had to hit home), before he understood how malignant that flag is...  I feel bad for the guy since he is obviously in pain, but before now he somehow couldn't understand how vile that flag was to his friend; nor could he understand how dangerous it was. 
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Jun 20, 2015 03:41
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Deny them your respect and silent assent. Mock them and shout them down when they have the goddamn nerve to act like a loving supremacist. They can be conditioned just like any other dog, but they also have the capacity to be embarrassed in public, which works really well with these ones, because half the time it's all about some twisted form of respect. They can't respect themselves without it being a zero-sum contest and so they need to have someone under their heel.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:44
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So this has been popping up on my Facebook feed. The amount of head scratching logic here is regoddamneddiculous, and between the gun nuts reaction, Obama's speech, and the media's impotance on the issue all the whiskey in the world wouldn't help.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:44
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv1Qmc_gI2s I still can't get all the way through this.
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Jun 20, 2015 03:54
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