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QuarkJets posted:Except that they don't reject the null hypothesis. Saying that you reject it is not the same as actually rejecting it. That kind of thing is okay for a working paper, which is what this is, but it's not acceptable to draw meaningful results from the paper in the meantime. This is over the top, even for you. Yeah, the authors are misrepresenting their own results because it's a working paper. Lol. (it's a FRB working paper which dont work like academic working papers btw)
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Jun 22, 2015 22:19
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Has anyone argued that minimum wage increases won't increase prices? Of course it will. The issue is whether that's an acceptable tradeoff (it is).
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Jun 22, 2015 22:20
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Radbot posted:Has anyone argued that minimum wage increases won't increase prices? Of course it will. The issue is whether that's an acceptable tradeoff (it is). The predicted price increase, by the by, was 7 cents per dollar of increase in the minimum wage, but only for low-wage services. General increases in prices wouldn't happen.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:23
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Raskolnikov38 posted:Seeing as you believe that being poor in America is impossible, being so would in fact be quite an achievement. Or you could just be a colossal moron, I wonder which is more probable? Well I guess the BLS is wrong about how rare being "working poor" is because of a bunch of anecdotes from a few guys on a forum.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:24
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Effectronica posted:The predicted price increase, by the by, was 7 cents per dollar of increase in the minimum wage, but only for low-wage services. General increases in prices wouldn't happen. Yeah, what's 7% among friends? We all know poor people can easily afford a 7% price increase.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:25
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Well I guess the BLS is wrong about how rare being "working poor" is because of a bunch of anecdotes from a few guys on a forum. Effectronica posted:Most people, when using the word "poor", are referring to their economic position in terms of what they can buy, rather than whether they are above or below the official poverty line. But let's take a look at some costs. The poverty threshold for 1 person is $11,770/year. The cheapest studio apartment I can find in my area is $400/month, so $4800 in expenses just for housing. Using the USDA thrifty food plan for one person, groceries add another $2683, and utilities roughly another $2400. Monthly transportation costs are $1018/month for the average household in my area, so taking 40% of that for having one car and driving less frequently (to be excessively fair), that's another $4886 a year. Average clothing costs add another $1079 yearly. So we're sitting at $15,848 without considering entertainment, healthcare, or other expenses. We're already $4000 above the poverty line in costs with a single-room apartment, not having any health insurance, buying the absolute cheapest food possible, no children, no entertainment, nothing. Even sharing your studio apartment with someone else still has us $2000 above the poverty line. Geriatric Pirate posted:Yeah, what's 7% among friends? We all know poor people can easily afford a 7% price increase. Nope, 7% of the increase in the minimum wage, as an overall aggregate. That amounts to a $0.50 increase in actual prices for a $15/hr minimum wage. This will not be evenly distributed, either. Effectronica fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jun 22, 2015 |
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Jun 22, 2015 22:25
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Geriatric Pirate posted:As usual, QuarkJets was lying about the contents of a paper. Normally I just don't bother engaging, but he also had interesting comments on the methodology that he seemed to actually be putting effort towards. Why is it that when you conservatives get backed into a corner you start accusing people of lying? I'm not lying to you, I promise. If the authors actually show that they've rejected the null hypothesis then please tell me where that is, because I sure as hell didn't see it. Note that "our model matches the econ 101 model of the labor market" is not a rejection of the null hypothesis.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:26
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Geriatric Pirate posted:This is over the top, even for you. They're not misrepresenting their results. They describe their model and its results in perfectly reasonable terms. Given the way in which the paper is written, I believe that they intended to go back and perform the necessary statistical tests to show that their results are meaningful.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:31
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Well I guess the BLS is wrong about how rare being "working poor" is because of a bunch of anecdotes from a few guys on a forum. has it ever occurred to you that you may be interpreting the data incorrectly this isn't an insult. have you actually considered that you may be wrong
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Jun 22, 2015 22:32
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Let's also consider that fast-food restaurants do exist with higher minimum wages than the federal one, by the owner's policy. These will suppress prices as well, since they wouldn't raise prices as high and would be able to outcompete other fast-food restaurants by doing so. EDIT: Also, they don't necessarily have higher prices than restaurants that do use the federal minimum.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:32
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really marveling here that i can't tell from context if geriatric pirate is perpetrating a really dumb and niche troll or if he's just extremely stubborn and unwilling to give an inch regarding that he may not have the ability to turn his opinions into perfectly clear and correct declarations of fact
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Jun 22, 2015 22:35
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Effectronica posted:Nope, 7% of the increase in the minimum wage, as an overall aggregate. That amounts to a $0.50 increase in actual prices for a $15/hr minimum wage. This will not be evenly distributed, either. Not quite sure those numbers are directly comparable like that (wage per hour versus $ increase in overall prices), but then again, I haven't done as many lab reports as you have.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:35
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Not quite sure those numbers are directly comparable like that (wage per hour versus $ increase in overall prices), but then again, I haven't done as many lab reports as you have. That's what they do in the paper you obviously did not read, because they compare a percentage increase in wages to a percentage increase in overall prices, which works out to a $0.07 increase in prices per $1.00 increase in wages. EDIT: Also, refusing to address data makes it clear you need a good, solid Clockwork Orange treatment if we ever want to rehabilitate you into society.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:38
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Once again that's a whole lot of terms with no actual meaning behind them. Not sure what "fractional uncertainties" you're talking about but still not sure how you think essentially taking the mean and doing tests on it is better than using the actual raw data. Any problems you have in the data that affect ols coeffs affect the mean. This is really simple. You're a loving moron with no understanding of how poo poo works in America and you think you understand American poverty better than actual Americans. That's what you're saying here, that I just think I'm poor making less than 15k a year and spending most of that on crazy things like bills and food and gas. gently caress you. gently caress anyone who thinks people need to respond to you with anything other than outright hostility.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:38
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Popular Thug Drink posted:really marveling here that i can't tell from context if geriatric pirate is perpetrating a really dumb and niche troll or if he's just extremely stubborn and unwilling to give an inch regarding that he may not have the ability to turn his opinions into perfectly clear and correct declarations of fact It's neither, he's dumb Jim.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:40
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GP do you believe that adults working minimum wage jobs are only doing so ironically?
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Jun 22, 2015 22:41
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Popular Thug Drink posted:really marveling here that i can't tell from context if geriatric pirate is perpetrating a really dumb and niche troll or if he's just extremely stubborn and unwilling to give an inch regarding that he may not have the ability to turn his opinions into perfectly clear and correct declarations of fact I'm really marveling here that QuarkJets managed to get like 6 left wing posters convinced that "fractional uncertainties" are a reason to avoid using detailed data Literally The Worst posted:You're a loving moron with no understanding of how poo poo works in America and you think you understand American poverty better than actual Americans. That's what you're saying here, that I just think I'm poor making less than 15k a year and spending most of that on crazy things like bills and food and gas. gently caress you. gently caress anyone who thinks people need to respond to you with anything other than outright hostility. Maybe instead of posting here 40 times per day complaining about how poor you are, you could, you know, get a job? I'm guessing most people don't do that, which is why, like the BLS says, working full time and being poor is quite an achievement.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:42
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I'm really marveling here that QuarkJets managed to get like 6 left wing posters convinced that "fractional uncertainties" are a reason to avoid using detailed data I work forty hours a week shithead, and that's if it's the rare week I don't go in early or stay late a few times for some extra money.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:44
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Geriatric Pirate posted:I'm really marveling here that QuarkJets managed to get like 6 left wing posters convinced that "fractional uncertainties" are a reason to avoid using detailed data i dont know what dumb bullshit you're talking about i am directly addressing your repeated hilarious self-owns as you continue to dig yourself even deeper by claiming that the official poverty line is an adequate amount of money for an individual to survive on in a country you've never been to
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Jun 22, 2015 22:45
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QuarkJets posted:Why is it that when you conservatives get backed into a corner you start accusing people of lying? I'm not lying to you, I promise. If the authors actually show that they've rejected the null hypothesis then please tell me where that is, because I sure as hell didn't see it. In every single table of their paper, where the coefficient divided by the standard error gives a t-stat that rejects the null hypothesis of the coefficient being equal to 0
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Jun 22, 2015 22:46
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QuarkJets posted:GP do you believe that adults working minimum wage jobs are only doing so ironically? he's just googling whatever numbers necessary to preserve his self esteem by not going down in flames during an internet argument
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Jun 22, 2015 22:47
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Literally The Worst posted:You're a loving moron with no understanding of how poo poo works in America and you think you understand American poverty better than actual Americans. That's what you're saying here, that I just think I'm poor making less than 15k a year and spending most of that on crazy things like bills and food and gas. gently caress you. gently caress anyone who thinks people need to respond to you with anything other than outright hostility. But the tone!!!!
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Jun 22, 2015 22:47
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i dont know what dumb bullshit you're talking about i am directly addressing your repeated hilarious self-owns as you continue to dig yourself even deeper by claiming that the official poverty line is an adequate amount of money for an individual to survive on in a country you've never been to  the BLS poverty line doesn't include any budget for anime, they just account for things like food, transport and living costs
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Jun 22, 2015 22:48
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Maybe the myth of American Exceptionalism has wormed its way so deep into GP's mind palace that if he were to acknowledge the inadequacy of wages and safety nets in America the cognitive dissonance would destroy his brain, but that may have already happened
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Jun 22, 2015 22:49
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Geriatric Pirate posted:
I used BLS statistics earlier to show that the minimum is thousands of dollars higher than the actual poverty threshold, and you have pretended it doesn't exist, because you're able, like a lizard, to recognize when something is wrong, but unable to figure out quite what it is. Only instead of running, you stand your ground.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:49
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look at those poors in america living high on the hog in their $400/mo studio mansions, eating ramen and doritos, owning refrigerators, taking comfortable air conditioned rides on public transport!!! next thing you know, they'll be able to get subsidized healthcare!!!
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Jun 22, 2015 22:51
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Geriatric Pirate posted:
Yeah how dare people say they're poor when they're just barely scraping by in the best of times, God forbid something go wrong. gently caress you.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:52
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Geriatric Pirate posted:
it actually doesn't account for transport and living costs, it's just the cost of food * 3 not that it matters, you're incapable of making a correct statement. if you described ice as cold reality would shift around your coward's forked tongue
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Jun 22, 2015 22:53
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Please tell me about how I should find a job, again, for daring to want things
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Jun 22, 2015 22:53
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Effectronica posted:That's what they do in the paper you obviously did not read, because they compare a percentage increase in wages to a percentage increase in overall prices, which works out to a $0.07 increase in prices per $1.00 increase in wages. And why are you comparing those numbers? When minimum wage goes up we know the rest of society pays for that increase one way or another. And how much it costs is fairly trivial to calculate. Analyzing price is important not because of the actual number, but because it tells us who pays for it. The difference between "owners pay for it" and "everyone [regressively] pays for it" is quite large.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:54
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Literally The Worst posted:Yeah how dare people say they're poor when they're just barely scraping by in the best of times, God forbid something go wrong. gently caress you. according to the first thing i discovered when i googled "why poor people in america aren't poor" you aren't really poor, deal with it this in no way reflects a fundamental incapacity for me to come up with my own arguments through interpreting and synthesizing data into a cohesive worldview, the fault is entirely yours
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Jun 22, 2015 22:54
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Effectronica posted:I used BLS statistics earlier to show that the minimum is thousands of dollars higher than the actual poverty threshold, and you have pretended it doesn't exist, because you're able, like a lizard, to recognize when something is wrong, but unable to figure out quite what it is. Only instead of running, you stand your ground. Sorry that the minimum you calculated for yourself is higher than the minimum calculated by the census bureau based on consumption data and price data (not the BLS, though they did some experiments and tests http://www.bls.gov/pir/spm/spm_thresholds_2013.htm and found very similar thresholds) I'm afraid however that I will have to take the word of two government bodies that have an incentive to calculate this stuff instead of someone who is literally addicted to somethingawful.com.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:54
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Geriatric Pirate posted:Sorry that the minimum you calculated for yourself is higher than the minimum calculated by the census bureau based on consumption data and price data (not the BLS, though they did some experiments and tests http://www.bls.gov/pir/spm/spm_thresholds_2013.htm and found very similar thresholds) Wow the government set the poverty line lower than it actually is???? It's almost like if it was higher there would be more people receiving assistance. Surely this is al just coincidence though.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:56
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Literally The Worst posted:Please tell me about how I should find a job, again, for daring to want things How dare I suggest that someone who has time to post here all day and who is poor might be well served by getting (another) job. God forbid someone suggest that you do something about your situation. That's not fair - the only possible solution to your problems is more money from the government.
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Jun 22, 2015 22:57
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if we keep insulting geriatric pirate's inferior education and evident learning disability he may eventually google himself into a page that patiently explains why he is wrong
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Jun 22, 2015 22:57
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Geriatric Pirate posted:How dare I suggest that someone who has time to post here all day and who is poor might be well served by getting (another) job. God forbid someone suggest that you do something about your situation. That's not fair - the only possible solution to your problems is more money from the government. Literally bootstraps, if you're doing anything but working you have no right to complain, even if you already work more than 40 hours a week on average. gently caress you. Also yes on my day off I do have time to post, because I'm not waking up and getting ready for an 11 hour shift. It's crazy how that works. Are you not really poor if you have days off now, you ignorant gently caress?
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Jun 22, 2015 22:59
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so in fake russia do they have like separate public schools for the hopelessly incompetent or something or did geriatric pirate end up getting mainstreamed
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Jun 22, 2015 22:59
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Popular Thug Drink posted:if we keep insulting geriatric pirate's inferior education and evident learning disability he may eventually google himself into a page that patiently explains why he is wrong Apparently swamp swedes are fed a diet of lead based paint starting from birth
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Jun 22, 2015 23:00
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asdf32 posted:And why are you comparing those numbers? Yes, and the conclusion in the paper is that the owners pay for 93% of it. Geriatric Pirate posted:Sorry that the minimum you calculated for yourself is higher than the minimum calculated by the census bureau based on consumption data and price data (not the BLS, though they did some experiments and tests http://www.bls.gov/pir/spm/spm_thresholds_2013.htm and found very similar thresholds) Okay, so you believe in magic, and regardless of the actual costs, if the word "poverty threshold" comes from a subject you sorta-trust, that's ineffable. Well, I'll just have to print out some of your posts and run water over them. As the representation of you melts and runs away, so too shall you disintegrate into nothingness.
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Jun 22, 2015 23:01
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Geriatric Pirate posted:How dare I suggest that someone who has time to post here all day and who is poor might be well served by getting (another) job. God forbid someone suggest that you do something about your situation. That's not fair - the only possible solution to your problems is more money from the government. Could you point me at some jobs in whatever US city you live in? Thx
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Jun 22, 2015 23:02
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