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Basically I'm asking 'what could the Lost start with so you wouldn't infinireroll until you get the dead cat'
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Jun 22, 2015 00:09
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Dr. Fetus posted:I think Monstro's Lung is a decent item. The problem with it is that if you have a low tears stat, or if it's the first item you picked up, the charge time is too long to work with. Otherwise it's a pretty decent damage up and synergizes nicely with stuff like Chocolate Milk and IPECAC. One time I got monstro's lung with mutant spider. Took like 15s to charge a single shot with no discernible benefit from mutant spider. I think I gave up a few minutes into the next boss fight after realizing just how long it was going to take.
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Jun 22, 2015 00:13
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The fact there isn't a maximum charge time is a clear oversight of Edmund's. Also, the curses. THE CURSES DO NOTHING BUT MAKE THE GAME LESS FUN ED
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Jun 22, 2015 00:21
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Cheekio posted:The fact there isn't a maximum charge time is a clear oversight of Edmund's. Also, the curses. Labyrinth is cool.
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Jun 22, 2015 00:27
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Cheekio posted:Basically I'm asking 'what could the Lost start with so you wouldn't infinireroll until you get the dead cat' The Dead Cat  you can always just cheat
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Jun 22, 2015 00:33
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Sanctum posted:Monstro's lung can be amazing with the right synergies. Bouncing tears, chocolate milk, etc. With no useful tear effects and low damage, where you aren't even two-shotting normal enemies, it's a struggle to survive. Takes forever to charge and getting hit resets that. On it's own, I'd say monstro's lung is my least favorite item. Experimental treatment is only worse because of how many item pools that drat item is in, I hate having it show up 3x in a single run. Also the fact that if you are ???, you can't pick up the boss item on curse of the blind or you run the risk of it being experimental treatment and killing you. Speedrunners often take Monstro's Lung as a starting item. It's good.
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Jun 22, 2015 00:57
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People speedrun this game? That's like trying to speedrun mario party or something
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Jun 22, 2015 00:59
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Speedrunning Isaac is kind of pointless. Ask someone why they got the world record for Isaac and they'll say "I got a good item combination" and list the items they got and how they work, not their strategy.
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Jun 22, 2015 01:09
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CJacobs posted:Speedrunning Isaac is kind of pointless. Ask someone why they got the world record for Isaac and they'll say "I got a good item combination" and list the items they got and how they work, not their strategy. You say that like many speedruns aren't built on mind numbing repetition, skill, and luck. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYmqJl4MoNI
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Jun 22, 2015 01:14
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AnonSpore posted:You say that like many speedruns aren't built on mind numbing repetition, skill, and luck. It doesn't matter how skilled you are in isaac though, if one dude gets a brimstone/ludovico combo and the other gets like soy milk or something the ludovico guy is going to win 100% of the time no matter how skilled each of them are. The only way speedruns in this game would work is if nobody picked up any items and that would be boring as poo poo and ruin the point of the game.
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Jun 22, 2015 01:17
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CJacobs posted:Speedrunning Isaac is kind of pointless. Ask someone why they got the world record for Isaac and they'll say "I got a good item combination" and list the items they got and how they work, not their strategy. Seeds though
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Jun 22, 2015 01:22
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CJacobs posted:Speedrunning is kind of pointless.
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Jun 22, 2015 01:32
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g0lbez posted:It doesn't matter how skilled you are in isaac though, if one dude gets a brimstone/ludovico combo and the other gets like soy milk or something the ludovico guy is going to win 100% of the time no matter how skilled each of them are. The only way speedruns in this game would work is if nobody picked up any items and that would be boring as poo poo and ruin the point of the game. The point is that over enough runs and enough iterations the most skilled player (or at least a very skilled player) would also get the most lucky and produce the world record that can't be beaten, just like every other speedrun out there with significant luck elements. You're thinking of it more like a speedrun race which is also a thing, but yeah definitely wouldn't work well with Isaac's style.
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Jun 22, 2015 01:49
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AnonSpore posted:You're thinking of it more like a speedrun race which is also a thing, but yeah definitely wouldn't work well with Isaac's style. http://www.ballsofsteel.tv/ They had almost 10k viewers on Twitch this weekend.
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Jun 22, 2015 02:04
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Afterbirth Update: All About Daily Seeds The daily seeds act like challenge runs - you can get stuff you haven't unlocked in normal, but you won't be eligible for unlocks or achievements or get credit for collection. Character is fixed for the seed - some days you'll be playing as the Lost "but dont worry those will be rare days…" Provisional scoring system (not final): Positive points: + 200 points per floor cleared +400 points for sheol / cathedral / chest / dark room +666 points for boss rush / mega satan +1 point swag bonus for each held pickup on completion/death (bombs, keys, pennies) +??? for secret bonus points ——– Negative points: -1 point per second spent playing (rewards for fast play) -10 per hit taken from an enemy / obstacles (damage from items/donations/etc don’t count as damage) (rewards for how well you play) -?? per item taken (still testing this but i want people to be a bit more choosy on what they take and push risk reward a bit more here) Submit complaints to the Reddit thread
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Jun 23, 2015 00:40
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Isaac speedrunning is pretty good, most people in the community run 10 character runs, where they play through everything, precisely because you can get a BS item combo once and get a stupid one character run (by the way, ipecac+magic fingers is the fastest combo). There's a lot of thought and decision to be made, the shop pool has mapping, and the item pool is generally bad. That and there's this German dude who is streams while I'm getting ready for work and he's pretty much the only Isaac streamer who doesn't have an awful personality.
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Jun 23, 2015 04:15
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IMJack posted:Afterbirth Update: All About Daily Seeds -points for items taken is kinda silly I think. It won't be the end of the world if it is minor but it's just going to discourage people from trying interesting combinations.
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Jun 23, 2015 04:19
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I'm assuming Edmund's philosophy with regards to the score is that your score shouldn't actually matter to you unless you are going for a high score, which I think is a fine attitude to have toward it. With that mindset, minus points for picking up items makes sense; if the score doesn't (or shouldn't) matter unless you're playing for score, it won't discourage you from picking up or doing anything you wouldn't do. Playing for score is the player's choice.
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Jun 23, 2015 04:26
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A change that wasn't listed in the blog:Edmund on the reddit thread posted:I should also mention that there will be changes to boss rush that may effect how people play the game a bit CJacobs posted:I'm assuming Edmund's philosophy with regards to the score is that your score shouldn't actually matter to you unless you are going for a high score, which I think is a fine attitude to have toward it. With that mindset, minus points for picking up items makes sense; if the score doesn't (or shouldn't) matter unless you're playing for score, it won't discourage you from picking up or doing anything you wouldn't do. Playing for score is the player's choice. I'd say it depends on how "playing for the score" is handled. I haven't played Spelunky in a long while so I have no idea if things changed since then, but the last time I did, playing for score meant that you had to wait around for a long while and let a slow moving instant death obstacle chase you around all the levels to raise the score, and those kinds of playstyles aren't engaging to me. Araxxor fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 04:29
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ImpAtom posted:-points for items taken is kinda silly I think. It won't be the end of the world if it is minor but it's just going to discourage people from trying interesting combinations. I don't think the daily is where you're going to go for weird stuff in the first place, but if you did then you already knew the risk It'd be interesting if items have different point subtractions based on what they are. Like Brimstone is super good but taking it also gives you a large point demerit so it's a trade off of an immediate loss for potential future gain
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Jun 23, 2015 04:29
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IMJack posted:Afterbirth Update: All About Daily Seeds This is the opposite of risk/reward it is simply "negative points for advancing" and is stupid. Not so stupid that I'll post anything to Reddit tho
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Jun 23, 2015 05:17
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Dr. Fetus posted:I'd say it depends on how "playing for the score" is handled. I haven't played Spelunky in a long while so I have no idea if things changed since then, but the last time I did, playing for score meant that you had to wait around for a long while and let a slow moving instant death obstacle chase you around all the levels to raise the score, and those kinds of playstyles aren't engaging to me. Well, that's my point. If you're playing for a high score you won't play the way you normally would anyway. If you're NOT playing for score you will play the way you normally will because the score won't matter to you. It's just common sense imo.
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Jun 23, 2015 05:26
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CJacobs posted:Speedrunning Isaac is kind of pointless. Ask someone why they got the world record for Isaac and they'll say "I got a good item combination" and list the items they got and how they work, not their strategy. Are you talking about asking a guy you just made up in your head, because Balls of Steel just finished up a Isaac racing tournament and it was pretty good and fun to watch. They also, probably not surprisingly, had already thought of the problems you just brought up. Their modded version removes several "overpowered" items and is also best of three, but another interesting mechanic is that they always play Isaac with the d6 and allow restarts. You might think that that leads to some degenerate play, and maybe it does, but it does a lot to avoid runs that simply aren't fun to play or watch and also adds in a whole new metagaming aspect, since you can see the other guy's screen. And it allows room for every runner to have their own style, like some players do whatever it takes for mapping, some players always go for Guppy pieces while others don't, and so on. Anyway it's all on Twitch so everyone can go watch a video or two and see if Isaac running is actually cool or not.
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Jun 23, 2015 07:34
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Speedrunning is cool if you think it's cool and trying to get through this game fast is fun it's not any more pointless than playing a video game is normally
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Jun 23, 2015 07:40
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Manatee Cannon posted:Speedrunning is cool if you think it's cool and trying to get through this game fast is fun yeah but let me tell you how it's actually lovely and bad before posting about how i've spent multiple hours trying to set up a way to get a single achievement in a game about poop and dead babies
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Jun 23, 2015 07:48
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Prop Wash posted:Are you talking about asking a guy you just made up in your head, because Balls of Steel just finished up a Isaac racing tournament and it was pretty good and fun to watch. They also, probably not surprisingly, had already thought of the problems you just brought up. Ohhhh okay, so you're saying they wouldn't have the problem of the game's speed being based entirely on what items you get if they just mod the game to remove those items! That makes perfect sense oh wait no it doesn't that makes my point even more correct Agent Kool-Aid posted:yeah but let me tell you how it's actually lovely and bad before posting about how i've spent multiple hours trying to set up a way to get a single achievement in a game about poop and dead babies And now you're even belittling the game itself in order to defend speed running, just lol Sorry finding out that speed running Isaac is pointless is ruining your lives, guys, but listen: Not all speed running is bad. Sometimes people speed run games that DON'T have entirely luck-based speed and length and those speed runs are much better because they're based on skill without the game needing to be hacked to not be the game anymore. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 11:27 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 11:23
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You thinking something is bad doesn't make it bad I don't even watch speedruns of this game but you're being kind of a dick, dude
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Jun 23, 2015 11:41
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You're right, implying that it was objectively bad was wrong of me. I do definitely think it's pointless though personally. I just think that if the way to make it reasonable is to mod the game, then the game is not made to be speed ran (speed runned?). This is why I think the scoring system is a good thing, because it's a competitive alternative to speed running that is applicable to this game without anything having to be changed.
CJacobs fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 11:55
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Cobalt60 posted:This is the opposite of risk/reward it is simply "negative points for advancing" and is stupid. Not so stupid that I'll post anything to Reddit tho No it's a question of whether the item will cost more points to acquire than you'll save in time bonus for having it. It also discourages picking up health ups and therefore rewards skillful play. If you want a really good score you're going to have to be picky with what items you take and that's sort of the point of having a score system in the first place.
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Jun 23, 2015 12:09
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If they couldn't mod the items out, they'd just be straight banned from use in the tournament, so I don't really see a difference aside from letting players get what is basically a free reroll whenever those items would normally spawn.
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Jun 23, 2015 12:27
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Mr Phillby posted:No it's a question of whether the item will cost more points to acquire than you'll save in time bonus for having it. It also discourages picking up health ups and therefore rewards skillful play. If you want a really good score you're going to have to be picky with what items you take and that's sort of the point of having a score system in the first place. You only ever collect health ups to fund your devil deals anyways, since soul hearts exist.
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Jun 23, 2015 12:35
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CJacobs posted:Ohhhh okay, so you're saying they wouldn't have the problem of the game's speed being based entirely on what items you get if they just mod the game to remove those items! That makes perfect sense oh wait no it doesn't that makes my point even more correct They wanted to take out certain things that are entirely up to RNG, like finding a broken remote and an instant use item, so you can just jump around until you find the boss. Or single items that result in a won run. So generally the rule is 'tears only', but there's stuff like tech still in. It's also not being speedrun in BOS, it's being raced, so your argument doesn't really hold up. I believe the final is this weekend at like 8EST, maybe give it a chance instead of just throwing your hands up and calling it dumb?
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Jun 23, 2015 12:36
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No one posted this hidden gif of what appears to be a D8.
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Jun 23, 2015 15:25
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CJacobs posted:This is why I think the scoring system is a good thing, because it's a competitive alternative to speed running that is applicable to this game without anything having to be changed. ... The scoring system rewards you for exactly the same way speedrunners play the game. Like "don't take damage, only collect certain items that synergize well, finish stages quickly" are all the things you are scored on and exactly the way speedrunning works. The only major difference about daily challenge is that you can't reroll until you get a good start and in exchange you're just going to have people who find the complete spoiler for the daily seed and focus on that instead.
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Jun 23, 2015 15:43
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Edmund likes watching speedruns, and he's even put a couple of things into Isaac to encourage that mindset. The Boss Rush encourages playing fast enough to even get there, and We Need To Go Deeper was actually put in for speed running. (Ironically, it's usually banned in races because too much RNG was involved into actually getting it.) I'm pretty sure that he's gonna try to push the speed running angle with the whole scoring systems.
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Jun 23, 2015 16:28
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One thing I wonder about is if Isaac will start with the D6 or not in daily seeds.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:00
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Sounds like it will vary.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:03
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I've nearly got 200 hours in this game, and this is a first for me. I've never seen an active Blastocyst on Basement I before.
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Jun 23, 2015 23:51
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I have hundreds of hours in and still see rooms I never encountered before from time to time. Maybe they're silently patching new stuff in 
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Jun 24, 2015 01:41
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That is everyone's theory. However Edmund mentioned the room weight thing, the chance a room would spawn on the map, making some rooms rarer than others. Most rooms seem to have a weight of 1 from what I've seen, making them all even, but since there are so many room types I'm willing to be there are a few 5s and 10s in there just to make them extra rare and that's why you haven't seen them yet.
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Jun 24, 2015 04:04
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