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computer parts posted:It's just funny when people criticize others for adopting an us vs them mentality and then turn around and venerate a guy who's been dead for over a century and who would probably vote for your enemies before you (even with the Confederate apologia included). Just imagine a world where the Union army, with its vast advantage in manpower and material, starts the war off with a brilliant commander like Lee and not the parade of nitwit fuckups they actually had until Meade got the call just before Gettysburg. With Lee in command for the U.S., the war is likely over in a few months, most of the south is not burned to the ground, who knows how many future Johann Sebastian Bachs, Albert Einsteins, and Thomas Edisons are not sacrificed on the altar of defending slavery, and more than half a million people don't die. So, basically, mother-gently caress Robert E. Lee so hard it can be heard from space. At least he got to suffer the horror of watching his entire army get slowly ground to beef chunks by George Meade and U.S. Grant and spent the rest of his life remembering his epic failure at Gettysburg.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 09:44 |
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# ? Jun 10, 2024 03:54 |
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In which Charles Pierce at Esquire seems to be reading along on SA, or at least saw the current thread title. FBI Busts ISIS-Inspired Teenager: Terrorism Is a Variable Concept. quote:Down in North Carolina, the FBI managed to tempt another teenaged misfit into dreaming his grandiose dreams in public, and then busted him for having done so, striking another blow against ISIS here in the United States. You know Justin Nojan Sullivan was a serious threat to the homeland because they're using his middle name. Edit: slow day at work, so I have all the time in the world to read up on some stuff I missed. Came across a gem of a quote in this article from the NYT, where one of the Sons of the Confederate Veterans comes sooo close to getting it. Flag Supporters React With a Mix of Compromise, Caution and Outright Defiance quote:COLUMBIA, S.C. — It has been quite a few years since the lost cause has appeared quite as lost as it did Tuesday. As the afternoon drew on and their retreat turned into a rout, the lingering upholders of the Confederacy watched as license plates, statues and prominently placed Confederate battle flags slipped from their reach. Yes, exactly. Your forefathers explicitly fought to preserve the institution of slavery and betrayed their own government to do it. This is what makes the idea of 'honoring my heritage' so ludicrous in my opinion. Leaving aside the fact that I don't get fetishizing people who lived loooong before you were born, I am Dutch and if I found out my grandparents or great grandparents had collaborated with the nazi's, I sure as hell wouldn't be coming up with elaborate justifications as to why I should revere them. The whole article is worth a read. Edit 2: Ok, this is weird. From a piece at TPM about all the different places/people that now want to get rid of Confederate flags/statues/symbols. quote:Kentucky What the hell? Dixiecrats are still an actual thing in 2015? How is a Democrat the only one not calling for the removal of a statue of Jefferson Davis? richardfun fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Jun 24, 2015 |
# ? Jun 24, 2015 10:28 |
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Antti posted:More importantly, that's not his passport. I realize almost all of his readership will have no idea what a real passport looks like since they'll never need one, but the tweet is meant to give you the idea that his passport has somehow been revoked. It's a slip you get from the immigration pre-check kiosk before you go through the line to talk to a human being. Some of them get marked randomly with an X the same way some people get marked for random check during TSA screenings.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 11:25 |
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/23/lindy-west-racism-america-us-white-supremacy My country is a racist country – built on the lie of freedom and opportunity Lindy West Pretty, uh, angry.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 12:07 |
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 12:54 |
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Quote of the Day, "The highly respected Suffolk University poll just announced that I am alone in 2nd place in New Hampshire, with Jeb Bust (Bush) in first."- Donald Trump, on Twitter. I love how he's able to sound supremely dickish, even when he's 'just' (the jab at Bush notwithstanding) relaying the results from a poll. Please never change, Donald
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:18 |
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Neurolimal posted:It's lovely that many of our historical figures owned slaves, and if there exists a monument celebrating Jefferson's owning of slaves and contributing to the slave economy I would be for its destruction. It's a good thing that's not what our tributes are celebrating. Hermitage not Hate
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:20 |
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Why are we supposed to take down the confederate flag yet let the gay pride flag fly? Remember when the gay states rebelled because they wanted to keep Christians as slaves? Oh wait that didn't happen? I guess this argument is loving stupid then and one hell of a false equivalency
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:26 |
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A sad day for America, everybody. Fox dumps Sarah Palin Now who will we rely on for our irregularly scheduled word salad?
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:32 |
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McDowell posted:Americans shouldn't deny their history. Like I said, Jefferson Davis is a character worth remembering. Don't try to blank out history. The memorials that you are defending exist specifically to deny history. That's what the Lost Cause mythology is all about, covering up what really happened
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:37 |
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quote:New York Times: “Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.”
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:40 |
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McDowell posted:Americans shouldn't deny their history. Like I said, Jefferson Davis is a character worth remembering. Don't try to blank out history. No monument to Hitler exists but people know plenty about the evil he committed.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:43 |
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Everyone voting to preserve the confederate flag anywhere in the country should have their vote only counted as 3/5ths of a vote. That should be reasonable.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 13:49 |
richardfun posted:A sad day for America, everybody. Didn't she launch her own channel not long ago where she spewed some kind of drunken tirade?
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:05 |
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FAUXTON posted:No monument to Hitler exists but people know plenty about the evil he committed. Post a huge copy of Mississippi's secession proclamation in every place still flying the stars & bars so people know what the "heritage" they won't shut up about really means.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:07 |
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Young Freud posted:I'm proud that my state actually has this monument, considering it was a Confederate state... See, we need more stuff like this. There were plenty of southern abolitionists who fought the system. There was a massive amount of southern militias who refused to secede and fought the confederacy. There were a ton of slaves who took up arms against their masters. There were a great many women who fought back when the confederate army came to steal supplies. Revisionists want to say that these are symbols of rebelling and rejection of authority? Well those men and women who resisted the confederacy, who opposed the institution of slavery, it's preservation and expansion, they the the ones who refused to bend or bow to the dictates of the easily influenced crowd around them. It takes immense strength of character to break away from the rest of your community and say "this is wrong". It takes immense integrity to refuse to comply with an act you feel is morally wrong. It takes incredible bravery for the margins of society to fight against an army for their rights, even more so knowing their fate will not be a quick death if they lose. Those are the people we should be honoring. Men like Robert Smalls, not Robert Lee
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:09 |
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evilweasel posted:This is sort of amazing to watch, it's 140 years of thin justifications for venerating the confederacy just collapsing overnight. In the STS context, Latour talks a lot about how it is precisely those social constructions / consensuses which seem the most stable that can disappear the most quickly if one string is pulled. As soon as pulling down the flag went up for vote, though, it was over; that re-opened a closed issue, and required people to take a stance of attacking/defending the flag, as opposed to maintaining the status quo.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:15 |
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computer parts posted:It's just funny when people criticize others for adopting an us vs them mentality and then turn around and venerate a guy who's been dead for over a century and who would probably vote for your enemies before you (even with the Confederate apologia included). Drop the empty moral signaling, would you? "Heh, you respect a guy who overcame the attitudes and society he was raised in and went on to smash the system and helped bring about real radical change. You fool, those attitudes and society he was raised in means he wasn't ideologically as pure as me. God, what a sports team mentality, honoring a guy who helped make the world a better place" Your complaints of "he'd probably vote for your enemies" requires you to ignore he didn't side with the forces of oppression, he raised and lead a loving army against them. You sound like one of those Fox News assholes criticizing Occupy because "don't they know they were raised in a capitalist society and everything they have comes from capitalism?"
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:20 |
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Fried Chicken posted:See, we need more stuff like this. There were plenty of southern abolitionists who fought the system. There was a massive amount of southern militias who refused to secede and fought the confederacy. There were a ton of slaves who took up arms against their masters. There were a great many women who fought back when the confederate army came to steal supplies. Revisionists want to say that these are symbols of rebelling and rejection of authority? Well those men and women who resisted the confederacy, who opposed the institution of slavery, it's preservation and expansion, they the the ones who refused to bend or bow to the dictates of the easily influenced crowd around them. It takes immense strength of character to break away from the rest of your community and say "this is wrong". It takes immense integrity to refuse to comply with an act you feel is morally wrong. It takes incredible bravery for the margins of society to fight against an army for their rights, even more so knowing their fate will not be a quick death if they lose. Floridian here, there's a local county park built on the site of a small fort where a brigade of pro-Union Confederate rebels set up shop and overthrew Confederate authority in the area. Florida was a morass of anti-Confederate rebellion and runaway slaves during the war - and, admittedly, a few massacres of blacks.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:22 |
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Drone posted:Didn't she launch her own channel not long ago where she spewed some kind of drunken tirade? She's really off the wagon and they rightfully can't count on her at this point to even be coherent. She'll probably be dead of organ failure in ten years.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:32 |
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Yeah but Muslim terrorist deaths are triple death score.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:35 |
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Cythereal posted:Floridian here, there's a local county park built on the site of a small fort where a brigade of pro-Union Confederate rebels set up shop and overthrew Confederate authority in the area. Florida was a morass of anti-Confederate rebellion and runaway slaves during the war - and, admittedly, a few massacres of blacks. Shame Florida couldn't hold it together post-reconstruction.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:38 |
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Why do Southerners that hate everything about America (the real one, not the one represented by stars and bars) even celebrate Independence Day? The highest incidence of "murrica can do no wrong" thinking is in the place where American ideals are hated the most. The most bizarre thing to me about white Southerners is that they're the first to schlob the knob of the US military, the thing that defeated them.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:49 |
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Radbot posted:Why do Southerners that hate everything about America (the real one, not the one represented by stars and bars) even celebrate Independence Day? The highest incidence of "murrica can do no wrong" thinking is in the place where American ideals are hated the most.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:53 |
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evilweasel posted:This is sort of amazing to watch, it's 140 years of thin justifications for venerating the confederacy just collapsing overnight. The murders were a horrible crime but so many others have had no effect before. There are a lot of Southerners who are heavily emotionally invested in the stars-and-bars. They either welcome the association with slavery, refuse to see it, or think that they can somehow "reclaim" the flag from people like Jefferson Davis, David Duke, and Dylann Roof. The attempt to scour it from polite society is being taken as a personal attack on who they are, which is being met with the expected emotionally-charged defenses. Assuming for the sake of argument that you're not willing to excise family members and friends over this, how do you go about breaking through that barrier? Cutting people out of your life seems counterproductive when they can easily find an online community of like-minded people to replace you. Edit: There is so much to enjoy about the south, it's tragic that people are focusing on something so divisive as the symbol of their identity.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:55 |
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Reminder that black Southerners are Southerners too. Stop lumping an entire region into an evil Other.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:55 |
I feel bad for Palin. Yeah, she says some dumb stuff and has probably done some level of damage to the political system... but in reality, she was a small-town governor who was probably somewhat in over her head as goverrnor, then got rocketed to the race for the second highest office in the land simply because she was an attractive (politically and otherwise) young woman. All that stress probably caused her to hit the bottle (or whatever) pretty hard to deal, and now it's all coming crashing down. Yeah the liberal in me has some schadenfreude, but I hope everything turns out reasonably ok for her
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:56 |
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Radbot posted:Why do Southerners that hate everything about America (the real one, not the one represented by stars and bars) even celebrate Independence Day? The highest incidence of "murrica can do no wrong" thinking is in the place where American ideals are hated the most. American Southerners of all colors have traditionally been less educated than north easterners (due in part to slavery economics and the failures of reconstruction) and as such as far more susceptible to the sophisticated marketing techniques of the pentagon. Also for whatever reason we really never had huge immigration pushes that would have brought with them new ideas/cultural identities etc. All our immigrants were uh in chains.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:57 |
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berzerker posted:Reminder that black Southerners are Southerners too. Stop lumping an entire region into an evil Other. Who has lumped all southerners into an evil other? You're the first person I've noticed who has used "Southerners" completely unqualified.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:57 |
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SgtScruffy posted:I feel bad for Palin. Yeah, she says some dumb stuff and has probably done some level of damage to the political system... but in reality, she was a small-town governor who was probably somewhat in over her head as goverrnor, then got rocketed to the race for the second highest office in the land simply because she was an attractive (politically and otherwise) young woman. All that stress probably caused her to hit the bottle (or whatever) pretty hard to deal, and now it's all coming crashing down. I'd be more sympathetic if she didn't willingly help poison political discourse in the US.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:58 |
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berzerker posted:Reminder that black Southerners are Southerners too. Stop lumping an entire region into an evil Other. Sure as poo poo ain't their flag
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:59 |
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Radbot posted:Why do Southerners that hate everything about America (the real one, not the one represented by stars and bars) even celebrate Independence Day? The highest incidence of "murrica can do no wrong" thinking is in the place where American ideals are hated the most. One of the most prominent features of Lost Cause historiography and confederate apologia is to situate the confederacy as the true heirs of the American Revolution and the founding fathers. In the mind of the Lost Causer, neo-confederates, confederates and the founding fathers are all part of a great tradition of political freedom and Liberty which has gradually been subverted, over the course of centuries, by the pernicious forces of Liberalism.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:59 |
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Radbot posted:Are you aware that helping Walmart workers unionize would help infinitely more women, to an infinitely greater degree, than some milquetoast non-commitment to "have more women in our executive positions"? She was First Lady of Arkansas, a practicing lawyer, actively working on improving AK's school system, and also pushing climate change and health care initiatives. She didn't have time to try to build a Walmart union from the ground up. She did have time to go to four board meetings a year. And having more female bosses is a big loving deal. Grapplejack posted:I don't get the hard defense people will throw up for Hillary on these forums. Almost everyone in this thread is going to vote for her anyway and you're not going to convince anyone that she's "actually really good and also perfect you guys". I don't get the people who ignore facts when dissing her. The attacks I see you guys slamming her with on these boards are utter nonsense that doesn't hold up to inspection. Researching them has dramatically improved my opinion of Clinton because every time I've dug into one of these innuendo laced slanders what I found underneath wasn't bad at all. And watching you backtrack when presented with facts is funny. Where are we now with the Walmart thing ? Right. I believe your goal posts are now on a line where you are mad that the First Lady of Arkansas ... who was also practicing law and also donating free legal expertise to charity for the poor and also leading a committee to improve Arkansas schools ( she got Sam loving Walton to back a corporate tax increase in 1991 to fund AK vocational schools which would be characterized as a job killing tax on business when Bill ran for president ) ... Anywho a very very busy woman with little free time ... It is now being argued that we should spit on the good she did in a few board meetings because it isn't as good as what you think she could have done ( maybe ) if she'd dropped everything else she was doing and tilted at that one windmill of Walmart labor relations. Even though in the intervening three decades many people have worked on that and gotten absolutely nowhere. And you accuse me of being unrealistic when the argument you are using assumes that Hillary Clinton is superhuman enough to have been able to do something that everyone else who has tried has failed to accomplish.. Or are you dropping that argument and retreating to "attack the messanger" by calling me o'malley?
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 14:59 |
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Fried Chicken posted:The memorials that you are defending exist specifically to deny history. That's what the Lost Cause mythology is all about, covering up what really happened Memorials/museums can be given additional context - the popular understanding of the Civil War absolutely needs to change. Slavery has always been unjust - but it only became economically obsolete with the advent of industrialization - where literally owning human muscle power is now clearly inferior to owning a machine that can do the same work. The ruling class in the South was so attached to this economic model they broke up the nation trying to preserve it. The fact that this caste system used childish logic based on phenotype hasn't done this country any favors. I'm all for reminding people that the Battle Flag is a national embarrassment and talking about the Civil War as a very ugly chapter in the labor struggle - but I think a national 'debate' over street names is a distraction from wider issues. If local activists want to rename 'Nathan Bedford Forest Lane' I wish them luck - but having it dominate national politics is pure media spectacle.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 15:01 |
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Hey McAlister, you posted a while back about the male vs. female approach to consensus-building. Do you happen to have any peer-reviewed papers (or popular coverage of them) that you could pass along? I don't think I asked back then, but I'd be interested in reading more.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 15:03 |
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McDowell posted:Memorials/museums can be given additional context - the popular understanding of the Civil War absolutely needs to change. Slavery has always been unjust - but it only became economically obsolete with the advent of industrialization - where literally owning human muscle power is now clearly inferior to owning a machine that can do the same work. The ruling class in the South was so attached to this economic model they broke up the nation trying to preserve it. The fact that this caste system used childish logic based on phenotype hasn't done this country any favors. It's no coincidence that goonsay is white
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 15:07 |
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Dr. VooDoo posted:Why are we supposed to take down the confederate flag yet let the gay pride flag fly? Remember when the gay states rebelled because they wanted to keep Christians as slaves? "No but see, wedding cake shops are being forced to do work they don't want to do, which is basically slavery."
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 15:08 |
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richardfun posted:
I see you don't know much about The South. deep-south states with large black populations (mississippi, alabama, georgia, south carolina, etc) have polarized in such a way that the Republicans are effectively the white-people party and the Democrats are effectively the black-people party, with their democrats thus tending to be more liberal than the national norm. Electoral results tend to very closely resemble demographic proportions, with >85% of white votes going R and >95% of black votes going D. midsouth states with lower smaller populations (kentucky, arkansas, tennessee, west virginny) do not have this arrangement, and feature Democratic parties that still command and are reliant upon the votes of conservative white ruralfolk, much like the dixiecrats of old. Which is one of the reason's they've taken so much longer to swing +R. Conway, being a well-to-do lawyer from urban Louisville, probably doesn't care much for the confederate flag, but he's also notoriously mealy-mouthed and pandering as a politician, so it's unsurprising to see him tiptoeing around the issue like an idiot. More interesting will be the response from current governor Steve Beshear, who fits the kinda-classic Kentucky Democrat profile of being to the left of many other Democratic governors on economics but to the right of many Republican governors on social and cultural issues.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 15:10 |
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LionYeti posted:Nah still gonna be a Neo Liberal Hackjob nomatter what. It's absolutely a neo liberal hackjob and there are a ton of stuff in it that is utter poo poo like the patent stuff but it also almost totally fucks Chinese dominance in the region for the foreseeable future which is a huge positive.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 15:11 |
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# ? Jun 10, 2024 03:54 |
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McDowell posted:Memorials/museums can be given additional context - the popular understanding of the Civil War absolutely needs to change. Slavery has always been unjust - but it only became economically obsolete with the advent of industrialization - where literally owning human muscle power is now clearly inferior to owning a machine that can do the same work. The ruling class in the South was so attached to this economic model they broke up the nation trying to preserve it. The fact that this caste system used childish logic based on phenotype hasn't done this country any favors. As opposed to what? The guy shoots people in a church so we overthrow the fetters of capitalism and rework society overnight into a glorious new era? Breaking down symbolic ties to a racist past matters. It's only a 'distraction' if you seriously think we would be having some other more valuable conversation otherwise, instead of news about Obama going golfing during a drought or Jeb Bush saying something dumb.
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# ? Jun 24, 2015 15:11 |