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Guavanaut posted:Every time there's an antinatalism debate, someone will come out with the "if life is so much suffering, why don't you kill yourself The argument that one shouldn't have children because suffering exists is rarely advanced by any coherent and fallacy free syllogism. Instead the argument serves as a proxy for a different argument (whether suffering is good, bad, or neither, or about what quantities of suffering are acceptable, how much suffering is there, etc.) or else is larded with implicit appeals to emotion. See, for example, OwlFancier's posts in this thread. "Why don't you kill yourself if life is so miserable" is a perfectly reasonable response to such weak reasoning.
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Jun 25, 2015 12:42
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" argument. I've never heard anyone argue "if life is so much suffering, why don't you kill as many people as possible and then kill yourself." They're both about as logically consistent (they're not, because the harms inflicted on those around you from ending lives are incomparable to any that might exist from not creating them) but I always hear the first and never the second.
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It really just comes down to your outlook on life. Do you think your existence is such a good thing that you want to bring another person into existence (without their 'consent')?
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Jun 25, 2015 12:58
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McDowell posted:It really just comes down to your outlook on life. Do you think your existence is such a good thing that you want to bring another person into existence (without their 'consent')? Why put consent inside apostrophes? We know what consent is and they are unable to give it.
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Jun 25, 2015 13:17
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McDowell posted:It really just comes down to your outlook on life. Do you think your existence is such a good thing that you want to bring another person into existence (without their 'consent')? That makes me wonder how Buddhists feel about having children.
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Jun 25, 2015 13:42
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If you don't want kids, you are Literally Hitler since why wouldn't you agree with the Holocaust?
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Jun 25, 2015 13:59
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zikjvst5uW4 There should be a Rust Cohle emote
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Jun 25, 2015 14:22
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Guavanaut posted:Every time there's an antinatalism debate, someone will come out with the "if life is so much suffering, why don't you kill yourself What if someone only got halfway through your post  Kids are cool and useful and funny, but I don't have any, because I lack the land and patience for them. Also mending fences is a pain. I assume you meant this: 
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Jun 25, 2015 14:37
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EvilGenius posted:That a child born into western civilisation inflicts suffering by consuming resources is the fault of the founders of that civilisation and those in charge of keeping it that way. It's not the fault of people that decide to have children, and it's not fair that they should even have to consider that when they decided to fulfil the most basic biological function. Again, by your own logic YOU are causing the same suffering, have the choice to end your own life, yet you don't. People who decide to have children don't need to justify their decision, any more than your decision to keep yourself alive. Oh well as long as you can blame it on dead people that of course absolves you of all responsibility. You can choose not to perpetuate that problem, but it's not your fault, so you don't have to, because it might get in the way of your desire to have a kid. And of course I have to justify my own existence, everyone does. It is debatable whether the desire your peers have for you to keep living justifies the damage you cause by your existence, but you can certainly make a good attempt at justifying your own existence on the basis that your peers depend on you in some way, that you may have a material debt to repay to the people and society that raised you, that it is possible for you to contribute positive things to the world instead of simply consuming and destroying. And of course it's very difficult to rationalize killing yourself so I can hardly expect everyone to do that. And further, it isn't necessary, because you will die shortly anyway. The real damage you can do is continuing the cycle by reproducing, inflicting the same problems and the same dichotomies on your children. I'm fine with living because I'm going to die in less than sixty years and nobody will succeed me, so it's largely six and two threes whether I die earlier or not. Besides I owe things to people and I should repay them before I die. None of that, however, applies to the creation of a child. A child not born doesn't have attachments to others, it doesn't have a debt to repay, it will not necessarily contribute positively to the world. It has no reason to exist. There is a world of difference both practically and ethically between preserving an existing life and creating a new one. Where do you get the idea that having children is some divinely mandated thing that everyone on the planet should be able to do without any thought at all? We shouldn't think about our child's, our society's, or our species' wellbeing because that might mean we need to make difficult choices, and that's just not fair. Whether you think it's fair or not the choice rests with you, and you absolutely have to make it. Or you can stick you fingers in your ears and say la la la I shouldn't have to think about this I'm just going to have kids. Whatever. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 14:47
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DismemberedLemon posted:For me, the answer to why I'm not having kids, is that I can't find it moral or ethical to bring a child into this world while there are so many needing adoption. But that's just my reasons, have a kid if you want. Have 10 or 20. as long as you care for and raise each of them, oh well Most people aren't ethical or disciplined enough to love an adopted child unconditionally. They might think that they are, but when that darling Haitian baby gets bigger and starts getting suspended from school for smoking weed, they're going to try to give it back.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:04
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Because everything else is just as meaningless as posting on a forum.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:34
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OwlFancier posted:Oh well as long as you can blame it on dead people that of course absolves you of all responsibility. You can choose not to perpetuate that problem, but it's not your fault, so you don't have to, because it might get in the way of your desire to have a kid. I'm not evoking divinity. I actually couldn't give a poo poo if someone decides to have a child or not. But not having one because society will suffer is a contradiction, because society is made up of humans who reproduce. Indulge me in a thought experiment - there are 6 billion humans in the world, and they are all incapable of reproduction, but live forever. After 70 years, you are allowed to leave Earth, or stay. What's the moral choice? Stay and try to fix what's wrong with it, or leave and stop consuming resources? Either choice will prevent suffering, however the latter at best reduces resource that could potentially fix problems, at worst leaves no one left on Earth.
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Jun 25, 2015 18:34
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If everyone was immortal but infertile I don't think the world would be remotely like it is at the moment, so the thought experiment doesn't make sense. In the unlikely event that people stop having children enough that we reduce the human population significantly, voluntarily, with a minimum of disorder and destruction, we would be in a better position to make the world a more pleasant place for children to live in. Certainly the issue is open for discussion, but at the moment I don't really see a compelling argument for why the world really needs you to have a child, or why not having one wouldn't be an overall improvement.
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Jun 25, 2015 18:38
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I was visited by an angel in a dream and told that my offspring will be the saviors of the universe, so now I'm ethically obligated to have children. But whatever floats your boat, OP.
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Jun 25, 2015 18:51
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OwlFancier posted:If everyone was immortal but infertile I don't think the world would be remotely like it is at the moment, so the thought experiment doesn't make sense. Yeah biology and evolution are driven forward by mortality (the ever-turning gears of capitalism mimic this process of constant creation and destruction)- the only living things that don't have senescence are very simple.
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Jun 25, 2015 19:12
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My mom pees a little every time she sneezes or laughs. She was very honest with me and my sister growing up about what pregnancy and childbirth does to your body - it can go beyond just adding a few extra pounds and stretch marks (google "rectocele" or "cystocele" if you're feeling brave). Not to mention how it fucks up your hormones long after you give birth. I feel like people don't talk about how pregnancy can mess with a woman because they're worried it'll discourage them from having kids. It's selfish, but that's definitely one of the reasons I don't want kids.
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Jun 25, 2015 19:43
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PUGGERNAUT posted:My mom pees a little every time she sneezes or laughs. She was very honest with me and my sister growing up about what pregnancy and childbirth does to your body - it can go beyond just adding a few extra pounds and stretch marks (google "rectocele" or "cystocele" if you're feeling brave). Not to mention how it fucks up your hormones long after you give birth. I don't think it's that so much as a general distaste about talking about women's bodily functions in general. Also maybe men's bodily functions too - I don't want to be sexist - it just seems like women have to go through a lot more processes that elicit negative reactions like menstruation, pregnancy related stuff, menopause etc.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:09
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EB Nulshit posted:I feel like, I will be able to do so many cool things if I avoid having kids. But most people have them. And probably wanted to have them before they had them. I had a strong biological urge which was satisfied by two offspring. They are cute and make your life feel better.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:14
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You do have a far stupider reproductive system than men do, yes. Worst we get is the occasional cancerous bollock. It's not really sexist to suggest that women get the worse end of the stick when it comes to unpleasant things happening to their reproductive organs.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:14
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OwlFancier posted:You do have a far stupider reproductive system than men do, yes. Worst we get is the occasional cancerous bollock. It's not really sexist to suggest that women get the worse end of the stick when it comes to unpleasant things happening to their reproductive organs. It was more that women have a more negative social response to it that I worried might be sexist, I didn't want to downplay how hard it can be for men having issues with their nether regions and no one wanting to talk about it.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:17
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PUGGERNAUT posted:I feel like people don't talk about how pregnancy can mess with a woman because they're worried it'll discourage them from having kids. It's selfish, but that's definitely one of the reasons I don't want kids. Why is this selfish? It's your body.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:21
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hookerbot 5000 posted:It was more that women have a more negative social response to it that I worried might be sexist, I didn't want to downplay how hard it can be for men having issues with their nether regions and no one wanting to talk about it. Even then I'd still say it's pretty fair to say that. I mean I don't think there's anything my junk is supposed to do that the general social response to is "oh god that's the grossest thing ever" whereas the same can't be said for women.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:22
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hookerbot 5000 posted:I don't think it's that so much as a general distaste about talking about women's bodily functions in general. Also maybe men's bodily functions too - I don't want to be sexist - it just seems like women have to go through a lot more processes that elicit negative reactions like menstruation, pregnancy related stuff, menopause etc.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:30
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OwlFancier posted:Even then I'd still say it's pretty fair to say that. I mean I don't think there's anything my junk is supposed to do that the general social response to is "oh god that's the grossest thing ever" whereas the same can't be said for women. I'm struggling to see how menses is more gross than ejaculate but yeah, it's treated very differently.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:33
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Solkanar512 posted:Why is this selfish? It's your body. You ever told someone you don't want to have kids because you don't want to mess with your body? Some people get really upset. An example: There were rumors that Beyonce used a surrogate because she didn't want to lose her figure, and people were pissed off at her, calling her selfish, saying she didn't deserve to have kids, etc.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:42
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Anosmoman posted:I'm struggling to see how menses is more gross than ejaculate but yeah, it's treated very differently. Well it isn't, strictly, but that's sort of the point. I have to try quite hard to make my dick socially unacceptable.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:42
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PUGGERNAUT posted:You ever told someone you don't want to have kids because you don't want to mess with your body? Some people get really upset. After high school, a girl I was vaguely acquainted with ending up having a baby about ten months after graduation. She complained to me that she could habitually peel off sections of her gums. Something about the pregnancy screwed with her gums, lending a lot of credence to the old wive's tale that for every child you bear, you lose one tooth. Also, she was a nurse, and explained perineum tears over Christmas dinner, much to everyone's disgust.
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Jun 25, 2015 20:54
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OwlFancier posted:Well it isn't, strictly, but that's sort of the point. I have to try quite hard to make my dick socially unacceptable. (This is a statement, not a request.)
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Jun 25, 2015 21:02
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cash crab posted:After high school, a girl I was vaguely acquainted with ending up having a baby about ten months after graduation. She complained to me that she could habitually peel off sections of her gums. Something about the pregnancy screwed with her gums, lending a lot of credence to the old wive's tale that for every child you bear, you lose one tooth. Also, she was a nurse, and explained perineum tears over Christmas dinner, much to everyone's disgust. Did she also talk about the involuntary urination and defecation during the final pushes of labor and the litre of amniotic fluid and the chunky, bloody placenta that women give birth to after baby comes out? Cuz those were interesting things to witness. What about the cheese (vernix mucosa)/hair covered baby (the amount of each varies from baby to baby, the duration of gestation, etc.) turning increasingly deep shades of purple until its first big cry? Childbirth is awful. And it has its own beauty. Same with children. It's unlikely anybody will provide an external reason that is sufficient to be convincing enough to have kids. It's basically a personal decision for which there is no single or "correct" rationale.
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Jun 25, 2015 21:11
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Guavanaut posted:You could do it right now if you had a digital camera. You'd think so but apparently that is a chat up line nowadays so what do I know.
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Jun 25, 2015 21:19
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Feather posted:It's unlikely anybody will provide an external reason that is sufficient to be convincing enough to have kids. It's basically a personal decision for which there is no single or "correct" rationale. Agreed.
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Jun 25, 2015 21:23
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Society without kids is like society without art:
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Jun 25, 2015 22:02
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PUGGERNAUT posted:You ever told someone you don't want to have kids because you don't want to mess with your body? Some people get really upset. I've gotten the selfish thing even though I'm a dude. I'm just trying to understand why someone would believe (most likely due to social pressures I'm sure) that about their own personal choice.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:31
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Solkanar512 posted:I've gotten the selfish thing even though I'm a dude. I'm just trying to understand why someone would believe (most likely due to social pressures I'm sure) that about their own personal choice.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:39
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Feather posted:Did she also talk about the involuntary urination and defecation during the final pushes of labor and the litre of amniotic fluid and the chunky, bloody placenta that women give birth to after baby comes out? Cuz those were interesting things to witness. Don't forget not making GBS threads for two weeks after giving birth.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:58
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Cicero posted:Society without kids is like society without art: Isn't this already happening? I live in a neighborhood primarily occupied by Boomers (because of the now crazy housing prices), and it is unsurprisingly childless. Although I'm not sure this really makes my life worse though...
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Jun 26, 2015 00:23
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EvilGenius posted:Don't forget not making GBS threads for two weeks after giving birth. Honestly the sensation of cutting through the umbilical cord gave me the willies more than the piss, poo poo, blood and placenta slurry I saw collecting under my wife's nether regions. I don't know why.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:58
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Isn't this already happening? I live in a neighborhood primarily occupied by Boomers (because of the now crazy housing prices), and it is unsurprisingly childless. Although I'm not sure this really makes my life worse though...
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Jun 26, 2015 01:16
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I dunno I can go weeks at a time without encountering children and I think it's pretty good.
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Jun 26, 2015 09:08
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Cicero posted:I'm not saying every place has to be occupied by kids at all times, I just think an entire society that is childfree is pretty depressing. It's called central London. Lived there for a year and saw no children and no dogs. Pretty good when you're 26.
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Jun 26, 2015 09:42
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EvilGenius posted:It's called central London. Lived there for a year and saw no children and no dogs. Pretty good when you're 26. Probably for the best though, I wouldn't want children anywhere near where MPs live.
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Jun 26, 2015 10:16
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