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hello, hi. i have a question. this whole thing started like a year ago iirc, and it sounded like someone called a girl a slut and then there was some jerry springer bullshit, and that's it. why do people still care. why do you talk about it for 80 pages in a day. why why why. the only thing harder to comprehend than how dumb and uninteresting this whole episode has been is how so many people can somehow dedicate 4+ hours a day to posting about gamergates and nothing but gamergates. what are you all getting from this.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:42
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sick trigger posted:it's a loving kickstarter success story considering their usual metric That's true! And she does do a good job with the videos. She is providing a introductory feminist reading of video games, which is what she set out and promised to do.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:45
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Kickstarter offers a nice way around various barriers to funding a project, but can also demonstrate why those barriers exist to begin with. That said, Gamergate is like some kind of hosed up World of Warcraft guild drama that won't die and I hate everyone who has any sympathy with it.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:46
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Sinnlos posted:I don't think that Intel attempting to increase diversity in STEM fields is a bad thing. I agree increasing diversity in the STEM fields is great idea, but Universities and the Government have been pulling teeth and throwing money at this for years. It's not going to improve over night. You know as well as I do that was a well played PR move. Also those 2 main series videos were so bad. She obviously never played or beaten the game that she was talking about to the point that her ignorance spelled fraud. At the end of one of the games, a female protagonist cuts a man almost in half after punching him in the nuts. She is a successful fraud at best.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:47
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Exclamation Marx posted:For some reason I suspect that Sarkeesian would have gotten the exact same response if her videos were 1080p and she sent out FemFreq tote bags or whatever. The only reason she got so overfunded is because she suffered harassment in the first place. Well yes, if there wasn't an uproar against her she'd be lucky to have raised $4000.00 Just like when Zoe's ex made his post and people started going "Hey wait a minute, is Zoe sleeping with her boss and this fellow who's given her positive press coverage" and people chat away about it and let it burn out... then it would have burned out. Instead we had mass thread deletions, censorship on 4chan, and bullshit YouTube copyright claims and so the mob got whipped up into #gamergate.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:47
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How do we judge the success about that Men vs Tropes in Video Games Kickstarter?
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Jun 28, 2015 04:48
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Another thing that people seem to miss is that while indie devs are not necessarily the establishment, many of the same games journalists who plug them for ideological or clique reasons are also the ones who write articles defending the most consumer-unfriendly business practices in the industry. ie: Articles calling people entitled for opposing the Xbox One's always-online plan or the ones that accused people of being cowards afraid of progress for opposing the Skyrim Mod Selling system on Steam or horrible DRM systems etc. the list goes onVolkerball posted:hello, hi. i have a question. this whole thing started like a year ago iirc, and it sounded like someone called a girl a slut and then there was some jerry springer bullshit, and that's it. why do people still care. why do you talk about it for 80 pages in a day. why why why. the only thing harder to comprehend than how dumb and uninteresting this whole episode has been is how so many people can somehow dedicate 4+ hours a day to posting about gamergates and nothing but gamergates. what are you all getting from this. This has gone way beyond the particular episode and become a much broader clash of various beliefs all applying one label or another to themselves. For many the feelings behind it had been stewing for a while, see the above as well as the fact that the usual suspects down and around 4chan are upset about feminism.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:48
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Removal of personal information, in line with a private website's TOS, isn't censorship.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:48
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Exclamation Marx posted:For some reason I suspect that Sarkeesian would have gotten the exact same response if her videos were 1080p and she sent out FemFreq tote bags or whatever. The only reason she got so overfunded is because she suffered harassment in the first place. Well if she finished the drat things, people wouldn't be able to say she didn't finish them. Because...they'd be done.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:50
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Sinnlos posted:The articles all state that Sad Puppies is fairly reactionary, and that Rabid Puppies have a documented neo-nazi affiliation. I can't even make heads or tails (lol) of it. Though whichever on Vox Day is a part of he is an rear end in a top hat, so that's the bad one. Jack Gladney posted:I don't think they're lovely or poorly produced. I think they're a great teaching tool that shows how critical thinking can give us distance and perspective on the things we enjoy, as are her earlier videos about legos and Buffy the Vampire Slayer that nobody said boo about because even the insane human garbage that throw themselves onto their swords about Joss Whedon knew that there was nothing there to be mad about. In the past thread there were huge discussions about this. Serious and not so. I feel they are mediocre and really don't help anyone trying to create anything. The prime example of why is in the name. A trope is a tool in creating things. That's it. It would be like calling a hammer bad. A trope is just a series of commonalities related to an creative form. A trope is very different from a cliche, which is the trope reduced to its most basic level. For example, the bowl of fruit is a frequent trope in art. Mass-produced art of fruit bowls to hang on grandma's wall is a cliche. A painter using perspective, style and themes and playing with them to make a different play on the bowl of fruit is a trope. Since we're going with video games, let us take the classic trope 'The Damsel in Distress'. I am going to go for the easiest target here. In the original Mario for the Nintendo Entertainment System, the goal was to rescue the Princess. You don't know or care who this princess is, why you have to rescue her or what she even is the ruler of. For all intents and purposes, she might as well be a diamond or a pile of treasure at Bowser's castle. She's the objective who has no personality, agency or character and yet we are somehow expected to care because she is a princess and a lady. That is a cliche. Now, let us go with the trope. We've been talking a lot about 'The Witcher 3', so Ciri is a 'Damsel in Distress'. She's being chased by the Wild Hunt, an immensely powerful foe. However, over the story we learn about why they are chasing her, the position she is in and the power that she holds. She can affect the story and she is far from helpless. It is just that this threat is wildly beyond her abilities and even the main protagonist's abilities alone. The player becomes emotionally invested in her story. This is a trope. The fact of the matter is, you cannot write without tropes. Even if you try to make a trope-less story, it is going to be awful and make no loving sense. Let us say you do. You succeed in the impossible. But then, someone else comes along and re-interprets your work in a unique and different style. Whoops. You are a trope now. It is why whenever someone brings up a list of tropes thinking they are smart (should clarify this doesn't refer to Anita), I know they are a loving idiot and has no idea what a trope is. Obviously, TV Tropes is to blame for this and they do have a page on Tropes As Tools, but it is more fun to feel smart and think you have all media figured out. What I feel she does is remove context from that trope, so it resembles the cliche. The old adage 'context is king' applies. Without context, Ciri looks like the Princess from a Nintendo game. And that is simply not true. Dapper Dan fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 04:50
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Exclamation Marx posted:Removal of personal information, in line with a private website's TOS, isn't censorship. Yeah, and had it just been that there'd have been no mass internet mob coming from it. The mob was created by the knee jerk zero tolerance policy to any gamergate discussion claiming that all gamergate discussion was bad, as opposed to just banning the assholes who were actually breaking the TOS.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:51
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The Droid posted:as well as the fact that the usual suspects down and around 4chan are upset about feminism. wait, there's idiots posting on 4chan? mother of god. rally the guild, we have posting to do.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:51
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Shadoer posted:Just like when Zoe's ex made his post and people started going "Hey wait a minute, is Zoe sleeping with her boss and this fellow who's given her positive press coverage" and people chat away about it and let it burn out... then it would have burned out. Instead we had mass thread deletions, censorship on 4chan, and bullshit YouTube copyright claims and so the mob got whipped up into #gamergate. people keep making this argument and it reads to me that the mob are all immature assholes rather than some kind of vibrant defense of freedom of speech up to and including doxxing you might as well apply the same logic to actual lynch mobs. "They all believed this guy was a rapist!" is not an actual defense of extreme vigilantism and antisocial group behavior Shadoer posted:Yeah, and had it just been that there'd have been no mass internet mob coming from it. The mob was created by the knee jerk zero tolerance policy to any gamergate discussion claiming that all gamergate discussion was bad, as opposed to just banning the assholes who were actually breaking the TOS. most websites don't want to harbor slut shaming of game developers. it's not an attack on free speech to curtail such activity and it's not the website's fault for being too oppressive or whatever. the blame lies entirely on the people who were angry about women in video games. they need to have the personal responsibility necessary to own up to their hateful actions rather than trying to rationalize it as a first amendment issue or an ethics issue or whatever lazy excuse is in vogue boner confessor fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 04:51
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Volkerball posted:hello, hi. i have a question. this whole thing started like a year ago iirc, and it sounded like someone called a girl a slut and then there was some jerry springer bullshit, and that's it. why do people still care. why do you talk about it for 80 pages in a day. why why why. the only thing harder to comprehend than how dumb and uninteresting this whole episode has been is how so many people can somehow dedicate 4+ hours a day to posting about gamergates and nothing but gamergates. what are you all getting from this. I'm intellectually for it because I'm for freespeech and anti censorship. But honestly, it's because I've spent so much time arguing and fighting against the right wing about gay rights, immigration, and religion that it's actually refreshing for me to have something to argue and fight against the left wing about.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:54
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Volkerball posted:wait, there's idiots posting on 4chan? mother of god. rally the guild, we have posting to do. Well that's just it, aside from them there are those who see the AGG crowd as particularly reprehensible because they're pretentious/moralists/thing not directly related to their politics here while the /pol/ crowd and the Dark Enlightenment man who looks like Kane from C&C are the clowns that everybody knows.
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Jun 28, 2015 04:55
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Shadoer posted:Yeah, and had it just been that there'd have been no mass internet mob coming from it. The mob was created by the knee jerk zero tolerance policy to any gamergate discussion claiming that all gamergate discussion was bad, as opposed to just banning the assholes who were actually breaking the TOS. All gamergate discussion is bad. You admit upfront that your movement is based on a no gently caress you dad reaction, and call it a mob, but still feel the need to defend it by attacking women in games. Why?
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Jun 28, 2015 04:58
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Unrealistic Idea posted:I agree increasing diversity in the STEM fields is great idea, but Universities and the Government have been pulling teeth and throwing money at this for years. Why are they bad videos? What was the thesis of each, and how can each be falsified with the analysis of evidence?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:01
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In regards to the talk about scores and ad revenue, I've never seen an outlet in the US bow to advertiser pressure with the exception of the Gerstmann debacle. There's was a strict firewall between editorial and sales at IGN, editors were not privy to any deals until the actual ads started running on the site. Publishers have been known to blacklist or punish websites that give their games bad reviews. Ubisoft did this to 1UP after they gave the original Assassin's Creed a lower score. When this happens the response from the websites is never to bow down and acquiesce. It should also be noted that threatening a press outlet is considered bad form even in the PR side of the industry. 2K's 3rd party PR had a Twitter meltdown over my review of Duke Nukem Forever in particular and threatened to withhold review copies in the future. He was promptly fired and 2K went out of their way to make it clear that no blacklisting was occurring. The real issue of Metacritic being tied to marketing sales has nothing to do with the journalistic side of the equation. Journalists don't care if their score is the one that tanks some PR rep's bonus. This is a moot in the UK, where journalists regularly work side-by-side with sales.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:01
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Shadoer posted:I'm intellectually for it because I'm for freespeech and anti censorship. But honestly, it's because I've spent so much time arguing and fighting against the right wing about gay rights, immigration, and religion that it's actually refreshing for me to have something to argue and fight against the left wing about. i'm not sure people crawling out of the second darkest corners of the internet count as the "left wing"
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Jun 28, 2015 05:01
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Popular Thug Drink posted:people keep making this argument and it reads to me that the mob are all immature assholes rather than some kind of vibrant defense of freedom of speech up to and including doxxing Yeah, but just because some assholes have gone to being vigilante's doesn't mean the entire discussion has to be canned. Popular Thug Drink posted:most websites don't want to harbor slut shaming of game developers. it's not an attack on free speech to curtail such activity and it's not the website's fault for being too oppressive or whatever. the blame lies entirely on the people who were angry about women in video games. they need to have the personal responsibility necessary to own up to their hateful actions rather than trying to rationalize it as a first amendment issue or an ethics issue or whatever lazy excuse is in vogue Well that's why there's suppose to be moderators. Clearly there were two strands of initial thought in gamergate 1. Zoe is a slut. gently caress that feminist whore and make her life miserable. 2. Wait a sec, how close has the indi scene and the game journalist gotten? Is this an isolated incident or is that conflict of interest problem we've speculated on for some time actually real. One needed to be deleted, the other needed to be let go. Eliminating both added a ton of fuel to the fire.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:02
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Volkerball posted:i'm not sure people crawling out of the second darkest corners of the internet count as the "left wing" I think he's referring to the AGG crowd.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:06
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Shadoer posted:2. Wait a sec, how close has the indi scene and the game journalist gotten? Is this an isolated incident or is that conflict of interest problem we've speculated on for some time actually real. There was no speculation about conflict of interest regarding the indi scene before GG. Idiots would regularly accuse big outlets of taking money from AAAs, but the sudden concern about the exact nature of a handful of journalists with no-name developers only came about with GG.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:07
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Shadoer posted:Yeah, but just because some assholes have gone to being vigilante's doesn't mean the entire discussion has to be canned. it's a bad sign when the flashpoint of your movement is based around doxxing and slut shaming Shadoer posted:Well that's why there's suppose to be moderators. Clearly there were two strands of initial thought in gamergate this reads like blaming the victim. "of course we're going to go nuts and find out her home address when you try to prevent us from exposing this woman's personal details. this is the internet, man!" this is not a statement that plays well with people who do not spend a large amount of time posting on subreddits about SJWs it also stretches belief when there is a sudden intense focus on ethics in indie gaming journalism when games journalism has been known to be incestuous and corrupt for decades
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Jun 28, 2015 05:08
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Shadoer posted:I'm intellectually for it because I'm for freespeech and anti censorship. But honestly, it's because I've spent so much time arguing and fighting against the right wing about gay rights, immigration, and religion that it's actually refreshing for me to have something to argue and fight against the left wing about. In what sense is there any censorship involved in this entire thing? Even if there was a conspiracy among private companies running internet forums and media outlets to shut down the discussion, is that what you consider censorship or a violation of free speech?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:09
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Exclamation Marx posted:All gamergate discussion is bad. How is discussing corruption in the game industry and also criticizing feminism bad? Exclamation Marx posted:You admit upfront that your movement is based on a no gently caress you dad reaction, and call it a mob, but still feel the need to defend it by attacking women in games. Why? Well I am not attacking women, and a good portion of gamergate isn't either. And I don't think criticizing feminism is in of itself an attack on women. Now you're right, a portion of gamergate has been infiltrated by misogynist assholes... however virtually every discussion and protest of anything in human history gets infiltrated by assholes when it reaches a certain size. I imagine people that support the environmentalist movement are not defined by idiot eco-terrorists blowing up gas pipelines, just as the struggle of the Chechen people isn't represented by the Boston Bombers. You're also right that the a good portion of the fuel that kicked things off was a "gently caress you dad" reaction, but that doesn't mean the legitimate point Gamergate had at the time was wrong.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:09
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Yeah people were creating tons of stuff mocking Geoff "Dorito Pope" Keighley long before Gamergate.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:10
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Shadoer posted:that doesn't mean the legitimate point Gamergate had at the time was wrong. what legitimate point is that? that zoe quinn may have slept with a guy to get positive reviews of her free obscure art game?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:10
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The Droid posted:I think he's referring to the AGG crowd. so am i assuming anti gamergate has been posted so many hundreds of thousands of times that it had to be abbreviated.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:13
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Shadoer posted:Yeah, but just because some assholes have gone to being vigilante's doesn't mean the entire discussion has to be canned. Except from day -1, the second was planned as a smokescreen for the first.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:13
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Exclamation Marx posted:I'm just wondering if this is the first time people have encountered cultural criticism of the media they enjoy? From what I can tell Sarkeesian's videos are feminism 101 stuff, so the vitriol aimed at her seems over the top (and misguided, if the movement is about games journalism or censorship or whatever). None of this is new! This seems to be the fundamental thing this stupid internet argument is over. Gamer gaters don't understand that the criticism will just stand on its own and do nothing besides maybe cause some more diversity in games, assuming it influences young developers. Anita only became a huge rallying point because people flipped poo poo over her, and I'm not referring to the harassment. The harassment while terrible was far far less important than people like Shadoer going onto every forum around and talking about how terrible and wrong she was. It was the most perfect advertising possible. The flipside of this coin is that anti-GGers particularly social justice types of tumblr and twitter don't understand the same fundamental thing. Gamergate is only still around because the anti-GGers think that shaming them will make GGers see the error of their ways and leave. This is of course a really stupid thing to think about assholes on the internet as it just incites them. This thread is a prime example of this. It's had more posts in two days than the hellthread proper had in months. People really into GG love to argue and will vomit up huge blocks of text well within the forum rules for D&D.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:14
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VJeff posted:Uhhhh. Why? Colorism is a thing. Sheva is one of the lightest people in that region. Not that big of a deal but it would have been nice since we don't get too many dark female characters in games.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:14
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The Droid posted:Yeah people were creating tons of stuff mocking Geoff "Dorito Pope" Keighley long before Gamergate. I never got the bit deal over this. people complained, rightfully so, that endemic advertising of games creates a conflict of interests. So Keighley goes out and finds an advertiser that is not from the industry and gets slammed for it. There's just no loving winning.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:14
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Let us English posted:I never got the bit deal over this. people complained, rightfully so, that endemic advertising of games creates a conflict of interests. So Keighley goes out and finds an advertiser that is not from the industry and gets slammed for it. There's just no loving winning. gamergate makes more sense to me as a free floating mass of raw anger at the world searching for a target
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Jun 28, 2015 05:16
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blackguy32 posted:I could have sworn that Anita really liked the Faith character from Mirror's Edge and also Chell from Portal despite her being a silent protagonist. She did but, uh, shut up.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:16
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7c Nickel posted:Except from day -1, the second was planned as a smokescreen for the first. This is the exact sort of stuff that I'm talking about. Nothing about GG was planned, because GG isn't an actual organization or group. It's just a bunch of assholes on twitter holding the same sign. It's like claiming that high school kids wearing Che Guevera t-shirts "planned" something when one person wearing such a shirt destroyed an piece of public art. They're all idiots but they're idiots on their own.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:17
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Let us English posted:There was no speculation about conflict of interest regarding the indi scene before GG. Idiots would regularly accuse big outlets of taking money from AAAs, but the sudden concern about the exact nature of a handful of journalists with no-name developers only came about with GG. Yeah there was. People wondered about stuff like how "Gone Home" got rave reviews and discounted that it was a financial kickback because it was an indie game. Popular Thug Drink posted:it's a bad sign when the flashpoint of your movement is based around doxxing and slut shaming Well the flashpoint for a bunch of movements are really friggen stupid. Popular Thug Drink posted:this reads like blaming the victim. "of course we're going to go nuts and find out her home address when you try to prevent us from exposing this woman's personal details. this is the internet, man!" this is not a statement that plays well with people who do not spend a large amount of time posting on subreddits about SJWs Yeah and I'm not supporting that, and that stuff should be deleted, I and others have stated that multiple times. People talking about the ethical implications shouldn't have. Popular Thug Drink posted:it also stretches belief when there is a sudden intense focus on ethics in indie gaming journalism when games journalism has been known to be incestuous and corrupt for decades Yeah but part of the thing that also fueled the fire was that these "indie gaming sites" weren't suppose to be that indie anymore and were suppose to be different. Popular Thug Drink posted:what legitimate point is that? that zoe quinn may have slept with a guy to get positive reviews of her free obscure art game? That at least one rear end in a top hat in Kotaku was trading positive press coverage for sexual favors and her boss was giving jobs to people that sexually pleased him? Is this an isolated incident or the state of the indie scene is far worse than people thought? That was an actual line in the debate and discussion, and a valid point.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:17
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Shadoer posted:Well I am not attacking women, and a good portion of gamergate isn't either. And I don't think criticizing feminism is in of itself an attack on women. Then why do Sarkeesian, Quinn, and Wu have every detail of their lives pored over? The gamergate was started by misogynist assholes. If it was about ethics in video game journalism then Sarkeesian in particular would be irrelevant. Your movement is reactionary. It doesn't have any firm objectives, it's just lashing out.
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Jun 28, 2015 05:18
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but seriously stop responding to popular thug drink (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 28, 2015 05:18
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Let us English posted:I never got the bit deal over this. people complained, rightfully so, that endemic advertising of games creates a conflict of interests. So Keighley goes out and finds an advertiser that is not from the industry and gets slammed for it. There's just no loving winning. Because when people think of Mountain Dew and Doritos in relation to gaming, they think of AAA industry marketing and promotions.   
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Jun 28, 2015 05:20
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Dapper Dan posted:I can't even make heads or tails (lol) of it. Though whichever on Vox Day is a part of he is an rear end in a top hat, so that's the bad one. Trope and cliche are very much synonymous with one another in serious discussion of grown-up art. They both have origins in ways of describing figurative language that has lost originality. Who says they're different?
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Jun 28, 2015 05:21
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