Popular Thug Drink posted:aside from zoe quinn's home address, what was being censored? Do you think that every deleted comment here contained her personal information? https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2dz0gs/totalbiscuit_discusses_the_state_of_games/
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 05:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 07:07 |
|
|
The worst thing about the left is that any possible valid criticism of the left gets immediately co-opted by the right and thanks to group dynamics any critics of the left are immediately lumped in with the right. So you either criticize and carefully couch your criticism in two dozen disclaimers, or you just stay quiet in the first place. It is all poo poo. All hail Friend Computer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 05:58
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:no offense, but i already find the claim that there is a correct computatable score for a game already absurd, so i'm not going to do your legwork for you and just assume that the claim is absurd and leave it at that Well again, it's not like Gone Home kicked off gamergate. It was just suspicious. Even you must think it's weird for it to get a such a good score across the board. Let us English posted:Reviewers are mostly all 25-35 year old white American men from a similar class background, with similar political views, with similar work and education histories, and even similar taste in games. Journalism has a diversity problem stemming mostly from the kinds of people who decide to become game journalists in the first place. This leads to people having similar tastes. When paired with the tendency for outlets to assign reviews to people who have at least some interest in the game/genre, this means that review scores and positive ones in particular will cluster. True, which is why it was suspicious not anything more. Let us English posted:i think this suspicion is rooted in some subset of gamers being upset that a game they do not like is popular. i do not think that the review system was rigged, because that is a highly improbable claim itself and i tend to dismiss conspiracy theories offhand without investigating them too much That could be true, it could be as "Let us English" said that it really is a result of game reviewers coming from very similar backgrounds, but it's worth examining in a billion dollar industry if collusion is a factor in the review process. Let us English posted:i think the huge amount of factual documentary evidence demonstrating that gamergaters regularly harassed and threatened women they did not like speaks for itself, and we'll just have to agree to disagree on the casual sequence of events that may or may not have happened in reality You are right, there's a large amount of factual evidence that people who associated themselves with gamergate were engaged in threats and harassment of women. That does not mean all of gamergate is wrong. Just as there were a large amount of documented instances where Social Justice warriors engaged in threats and harassment, that does not make causes they support like feminism inherently wrong.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:01
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:You sure are, if you come in in the middle of discussion of threats and pile on with criticism. Oh so harrasment does make you immune to criticism. Good thing NOBODY in their right mind would ever rile up the mob and focus on the victimhood rather than the work they are doing to abuse this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:03
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:You sure are, if you come in in the middle of discussion of threats and pile on with criticism. Except that's not true with a lot of intellectual discussions. That's like saying criticizing Israel during one of it's wars is legitimizing the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians, and therefore you're antisemitic.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:04
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:Do you think that every deleted comment here contained her personal information? what am i looking at here, a bunch of redacted posts? Shadoer posted:Well again, it's not like Gone Home kicked off gamergate. It was just suspicious. Even you must think it's weird for it to get a such a good score across the board. i do not think it is weird at all for reviewers to give a high score to games they liked. i think that reviewers often give high scores to games they like, and that good games tend to get high scores. i believe this without believing in any kind of organized conspiracy or score-fixing racket, because it just naturally makes sense to me that people will say good things when they're describing a thing that they like i really don't know where you're trying to go with this "just asking questions" bit but it sounds excessively paranoid and kind of weird Shadoer posted:Except that's not true with a lot of intellectual discussions. i dont think many people were calling up israel's home phone number and threatening to murder it
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:04
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:05
|
|
|
Sinnlos posted:And someone somewhere probably loves that game I love it, and own it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:07
|
|
|
7c Nickel posted:How does that work? They can create IRC channels devoted to her and spend all day talking about the best way to get her to commit suicide but nothing they do counts as planned because ??? Yeah like 12 people. 12 people that don't have any current influence or authority. If we are to compare them to racist groups, then GG isn't the KKK. They're the random racist spree killers akin to Charles Manson and the South Carolina guy. These racists are actively collaborating about harming specific black people, they just happen to have broadly similar ideologies.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:08
|
|
|
2 of these things don't fit the theme
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:08
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:i do not think it is weird at all for reviewers to give a high score to games they liked. i think that reviewers often give high scores to games they like, and that good games tend to get high scores. i believe this without believing in any kind of organized conspiracy or score-fixing racket, because it just naturally makes sense to me that people will say good things when they're describing a thing that they like Yeah that's not what I said or responded to or even claimed. Let us English posted:There was no speculation about conflict of interest regarding the indi scene before GG. Idiots would regularly accuse big outlets of taking money from AAAs, but the sudden concern about the exact nature of a handful of journalists with no-name developers only came about with GG. Shadoer posted:Yeah there was. People wondered about stuff like how "Gone Home" got rave reviews and discounted that it was a financial kickback because it was an indie game. Speculation doesn't equal conspiracy, I pointed out there was speculation and gave an example, there is nothing weird about this, speculating is natural. Few people were saying that it was a conspiracy, and even I have only suspected it as one possible option. What's weird is you keep trying to press this point. Popular Thug Drink posted:i dont think many people were calling up israel's home phone number and threatening to murder it No, but for activists involved in both the Israeli or Palestinian cause it's a fact of life.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:09
|
|
|
Shadoer posted:Yeah that's not what I said or responded to or even claimed. so you don't actually believe there was a conspiracy to rate gone home higher than it was, you're just citing other people who believed this and you keep trying to articulate their arguments, as an example, even though you personally do not believe there was a suspicious conspiracy and you actually think gone home earned its general acclaim through being a good game? is that right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:11
|
|
|
Sinnlos posted:So we ought to compare Gone Home to similar games in terms of less tangible metrics, like plot and aesthetic. When we do so, I personally don't find it to be a bad game. I was actually saying that they should be judged by its own metrics. Fallout is a RPG franchise often associated with its writing (not necessarily plot but dialogue and humor too) as well as its aesthetic. Fallout 3 fails on its own metrics (an action RPG) because of the plot's convoluted and flawed nature and its numerous gameplay issues, and as a Fallout game because it misses the tone and aesthetics of the originals. So if Gone Home is a game about atmosphere, it should be judged on that
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:11
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:what am i looking at here, a bunch of redacted posts? Yes, the reddit mods deleted thousands of comments in the thread, many of which were not harassing in the least.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:13
|
|
|
Shadoer posted:Speculation doesn't equal conspiracy, I pointed out there was speculation and gave an example, there is nothing weird about this, speculating is natural. Few people were saying that it was a conspiracy, and even I have only suspected it as one possible option. You've repeatedly insinuated that you think there is collusion amongst gaming journalists. The gamergate movement emerged from that same conspiracy theory.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:14
|
|
|
The Droid posted:I was actually saying that they should be judged by its own metrics. Fallout is a RPG franchise often associated with its writing (not necessarily plot but dialogue and humor too) as well as its aesthetic. Fallout 3 fails on its own metrics (an action RPG) because of the plot's convoluted and flawed nature and its numerous gameplay issues, and as a Fallout game because it misses the tone and aesthetics of the originals. Yeah, that is what I was saying as well, it should be judged against similar games. Comparing Fallout 3 and Tetris is nonsensical, while Fallout 3 to New Vegas, Skyrim, or even Witcher 2/3 and Mass Effect makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:16
|
|
|
Are there any bad indie games made by men that have been accused of belonging to this conspiracy?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:21
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:so you don't actually believe there was a conspiracy to rate gone home higher than it was, you're just citing other people who believed this and you keep trying to articulate their arguments, as an example, even though you personally do not believe there was a suspicious conspiracy and you actually think gone home earned its general acclaim through being a good game? is that right? I'm not sure what you are saying, but you can probably clarify this for yourself by going over my previous posts or the following reply: Exclamation Marx posted:You've repeatedly insinuated that you think there is collusion amongst gaming journalists. The gamergate movement emerged from that same conspiracy theory. Not exactly. I have insinuated and said that there is reason to suspect collusion amongst game journalists and there's enough evidence for it that it deserves investigation. There also is enough evidence to show that a portion of game journalists are colluding with each other and the industry and this is wrong, however to the extent that this is in the industry is in question. Now I will admit to a certain extent gamergate emerged from that conspiracy theory, at the same time I'd say that there's a legitimate point to it. I would say that a conspiracy in the sense that "there is a feminist conspiracy to censor the internet" is far fetched. However an elitist cliche that's emerged from an inbred industry isn't so far fetched. Edit: Exclamation Marx posted:Are there any bad indie games made by men that have been accused of belonging to this conspiracy? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Gone Home was made by men.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:22
|
|
|
Exclamation Marx posted:Are there any bad indie games made by men that have been accused of belonging to this conspiracy? yeah. this lovely telemarkter game made with MSpaint. https://archive.is/qzl4v http://powergamer.co/featured/david-s-gallant-im-making-sure-gamergaters-dont-get-keys/ Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jun 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:24
|
|
|
Hadaka Apron posted:Yes, the reddit mods deleted thousands of comments in the thread, many of which were not harassing in the least. so you cited a bunch of things that i can't read on purpose and invited me to speculate on the possible contents of the deleted posts? Shadoer posted:I'm not sure what you are saying, but you can probably clarify this for yourself by going over my previous posts or the following reply: i'm saying that your argument, or the argument you are quoting without comment, makes no sense at all Shadoer posted:I have insinuated and said that there is reason to suspect collusion amongst game journalists and there's enough evidence for it that it deserves investigation. There also is enough evidence to show that a portion of game journalists are colluding with each other and the industry and this is wrong, however to the extent that this is in the industry is in question. there is proven collusion between large game studios and flagship games journalism outlets, that has been a fact for decades there is no evidence that a small studio releasing its first game on a limited budget colluded with fringe game journalism outlets. the only thing you cited is a 'suspicious' universal high rating, which is far more likely to be because the game itself deserved the high score. occam's razor indicates the game got good reviews because it was a good game, not because it was a bad game boner confessor fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jun 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:24
|
|
|
Exclamation Marx posted:You've repeatedly insinuated that you think there is collusion amongst gaming journalists. The gamergate movement emerged from that same conspiracy theory. The exposure of the gamejournopros mailing list that came about after someone on it was fed up with other members of the list pressuring people into silencing discussion on their own sites was pretty much this, though it wasn't on a large scale like people thought it was. Exclamation Marx posted:Are there any bad indie games made by men that have been accused of belonging to this conspiracy? I'm pretty sure Phil Fish got a lot of flak because many judges in the Indie Games Festival who awarded his game the Grand Prize were his investors. Not a game journalist conspiracy, but the issue blew up around the same time as it was an instance of the indie scene being incestuous. The Droid fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Jun 28, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:26
|
|
|
Brannock posted:The worst thing about the left is that any possible valid criticism of the left gets immediately co-opted by the right and thanks to group dynamics any critics of the left are immediately lumped in with the right. So you either criticize and carefully couch your criticism in two dozen disclaimers, or you just stay quiet in the first place. It is all poo poo. This is really wildly hyperbolic. The left--whatever you consider that to be--criticizes itself all the time and doesn't lump people in with the right. For example, at the moment some black people are criticizing Sanders for being unengaged with minority issues without claiming he's part of the right wing, and nobody is claiming those black people are part of the right wing. It's true that bizarre hyperbole like this would get criticized, but that's only because it's weird hyperbole. There might be a valid point if you scraped the absolutism off.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:29
|
|
|
You guys say conspiracy theory to make it sound absurd but it's basically just some people from gaming journalism collectively pushing an agenda, which is something that happens all the time. Gone Home is awful. Personally I found the audio logs and e-mails from Doom 3 more compelling.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:30
|
|
|
argondamn posted:You guys say conspiracy theory to make it sound absurd but it's basically just some people from gaming journalism collectively pushing an agenda, which is something that happens all the time. what agenda?
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:31
|
|
|
Its not an agenda thing, its a clique/scene thing. If all the other cool
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:32
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:so you cited a bunch of things that i can't read on purpose and invited me to speculate on the possible contents of the deleted posts? Really? Aside that people, including myself made legitimate comments in that thread of discussion and were mad when it was all deleted, is it really that probable that all of those posts contained Zoe's address or sexist comments about her? Popular Thug Drink posted:i'm saying that your argument, or the argument you are quoting without comment, makes no sense at all I'm basically saying your using logical fallacies to make your case. You may want to consult this website for more information https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ Popular Thug Drink posted:there is proven collusion between large game studios and flagship games journalism outlets, that has been a fact for decades Eh true and not so true. At the start of the gaming industry it was more understandable as it was a real niche market. Nintendo Power had to exist because if it didn't, no one would be able to know about Nintendo games. Thing is it's not a niche industry anymore, it's a billion dollar one and that's part of why the uproar is kicking off now. Popular Thug Drink posted:there is no evidence that a small studio releasing its first game on a limited budget colluded with fringe game journalism outlets. the only thing you cited is a 'suspicious' universal high rating, which is far more likely to be because the game itself deserved the high score. occam's razor indicates the game got good reviews because it was a good game, not because it was a bad game Except for the mailing list, pieces of coverage, the creepy unified nature of the "gamers is dead" slew of articles, ect
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:32
|
|
|
MY TASTES ARE STILL THE MAINSTREAM AND WHAT SHOULD BE CATERED TO! ANY INDICATION THAT I AM BEING LEFT BEHIND IS ACTUAL A CONSPIRACY OF SJW CORRUPTION!
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:35
|
|
|
Shadoer posted:I have insinuated and said that there is reason to suspect collusion amongst game journalists and there's enough evidence for it that it deserves investigation. There also is enough evidence to show that a portion of game journalists are colluding with each other and the industry and this is wrong, however to the extent that this is in the industry is in question. Shadoer posted:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Gone Home was made by men.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:36
|
|
|
Dapper Dan posted:Are you serious? You want me to find a peer reviewed article when I just gave you the dictionary definitions of both from Merriam-Webster indicating they are different? Here, how about from the site that popularized it: Here's the Oxford English Dictionary on "trope": quote:
If you look at the citations, it seems like people use the term to describe the conventions that make up conventional kinds of stories. Not all tropes are cliches, but it seems like you can criticize a convention for being thoughtless or harmful or stifling without it being a cliche, which is what Anita Sarkeesian seems to be doing.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:37
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:what agenda? Do you want a name or something cause I don't think I have name for it. You can infer what it is pretty easily just fill in the blanks like you always do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:37
|
|
|
Shadoer posted:Really? Aside that people, including myself made legitimate comments in that thread of discussion and were mad when it was all deleted, is it really that probable that all of those posts contained Zoe's address or sexist comments about her? if there was a sufficient amount of people repeating bannable information it makes eminent sense to delete the whole thing rather than surgically excise the posts that people are just posting to prove that they can post them i'm confident that a sufficient percentage of those posts were worthless enough to torch the whole thing Shadoer posted:I'm basically saying your using logical fallacies to make your case. which logical fallacies did i use when criticising your argument? Shadoer posted:Eh true and not so true. At the start of the gaming industry it was more understandable as it was a real niche market. Nintendo Power had to exist because if it didn't, no one would be able to know about Nintendo games. so why are gamergaters more concerned with the absolute bottom rung of budget indie games than AAA studios? you keep citing billion dollar industry, what percentage of that is represented by tiny studios with shoestring budgets who make art games? Shadoer posted:Except for the mailing list, pieces of coverage, the creepy unified nature of the "gamers is dead" slew of articles, ect a mailing list, news articles, and articles you find distasteful that others itt have claimed as prove of a desire to eradicate gamers forever - none of this adds up to a leftist feminist conspiracy to destroy games. not to be offensive but this all sounds, well, really disjointed and incoherent
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:38
|
|
|
The Droid posted:The exposure of the gamejournopros mailing list that came about after someone on it was fed up with other members of the list pressuring people into silencing discussion on their own sites was pretty much this, though it wasn't on a large scale like people thought it was. Wait, the conspiracy was to shut down discussion on gamergate? Or collusion to rate these indie games well? I'm confused, because I thought we were talking about the latter.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:38
|
|
|
They're not trying to destroy games. They just want to make games about things that have nothing to do with gameplay. Like whether or not your polish medieval game contains the appropriate number of black people.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:40
|
|
|
Popular Thug Drink posted:so why are gamergaters more concerned with the absolute bottom rung of budget indie games than AAA studios? you keep citing billion dollar industry, what percentage of that is represented by tiny studios with shoestring budgets who make art games? A good chunk of AAA developers have been called on their poo poo in recent months. The difference is that their PR people don't generally go calling their audience retarded pissbabies or autistic manchildren, something people such as Phil Fish, etc, were apparently incapable of going without.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:41
|
|
|
Exclamation Marx posted:Is that evidence any deeper than games that aren't to your taste getting well-reviewed? How come so many people in gamergate (including some people in this very thread) do think that a push for greater minority representation in games will lead to gaming being destroyed or something? And I don't know what an elitist cliche is. To be perfectly honest, no. It's just speculation still, and as I have said something worse investigating. People worrying about minority representation being the death of gaming I'd say are few, but you may be right that it's more than I think. At the same time, most people are definitely more ticked off at pushing for censoring or penalizing games that aren't representative of minorities. A fair bet would be that no one would have a problem with minorities being represented in games and that would be a positive. Giving them an unfair advantage in reviews and penalizing games that don't would be bad however. Hence the whole censorship debate.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:42
|
|
|
Just quoting this to make sure that we're all on the same page. The depressed looking woman here is Vivian Janes (sp??), 4chan's ideal woman when it comes to games and their mascot for GG -- doesn't object to questionable content ever, shuts up, just wants to play games. A nice, demure, proper lady, who does what she is told and likes what you like. This is Empowering and Feminist, and proves that 4chan has women on their side, so any cultural criticism of games is wrong, because a cartoon woman drawn by men said so.
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:43
|
|
|
argondamn posted:They're not trying to destroy games. They just want to make games about things that have nothing to do with gameplay. Like whether or not your polish medieval game contains the appropriate number of black people. AKA actual treating games as an art form open to criticism instead of a washing machine. THE HORROR!
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:43
|
|
|
argondamn posted:They're not trying to destroy games. They just want to make games about things that have nothing to do with gameplay. Like whether or not your polish medieval game contains the appropriate number of black people. Games are already about things that aren't just the gameplay and plot ding dong. For all that gamers like to cry that games are art (they are) they don't actually want to treat those things like actual art
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:43
|
|
|
Shadoer posted:To be perfectly honest, no. It's just speculation still, and as I have said something worse investigating. how is it censorship to give a game a bad review and then explain why you gave it a bad review poptart_fairy posted:A good chunk of AAA developers have been called on their poo poo in recent months. The difference is that their PR people don't generally go calling their audience retarded pissbabies or autistic manchildren, something people such as Phil Fish, etc, were apparently incapable of going without. phil fish is the super angry guy who freaked out and canceled his game, right? just so that people don't think i'm totally partisan here i agree that most people involved in this mess are nuts. i'm just choosing to talk to the people who choose to post itt
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 07:07 |
|
|
e: misred
|
|
#
?
Jun 28, 2015 06:47
|
|
