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Ddraig posted:Other logical jumping off points for the crusade against unethical practices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWEiccW5l4Q I miss the old days when Gaming Journalism was simply the punchline of a joke instead of a hot new angle to fight the kulturkampf.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:45
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Broniki posted:Where in the Zoe Post does Eron write about "how her slutyness was ruining games journalism." The five guys being games journalists is not the same as Eron making a statement about industry corruption. Wait, are you defending GG while being dismissive of the very thing that started the whole movement?
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Jun 29, 2015 12:45
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Ddraig posted:Nintendo literally doing what Hepler suggested and allowing parts of games to be skipped I am familiar with the rest, but what were these about?
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Jun 29, 2015 12:45
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Equeen posted:Wait, are you defending GG while being dismissive of the very thing that started the whole movement? How do you dismiss something that isn't real?
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Jun 29, 2015 12:47
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Ddraig posted:Other logical jumping off points for the crusade against unethical practices: While I worked there, EA literally had a marketing policy that timed the buying of ads in trade magazines with upcoming reviews. This is the same problem that automotive or any other product journalists have; their advertisers are the people that they're reviewing. This creates an absolutely insurmountable conflict of interest. Depending on their revenue model, some 'indie' journalists may or may not be susceptible to this, but if they aren't, they lack access, and bring nothing to the table that just reading user reviews don't. There isn't any way to ever improve games journalism beyond its current state, this is the natural shape of the market, and that GGers don't realize this is part of what's funny about them.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:48
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botany posted:What was the gossip about? For the most part: Dude X: hey so Zoe Quinn's being harasses, we should co-sign a public statement of support & not give air to these idiots, y/n Dude y: ok Dude Z: nah The guy who leaked the existence of the newsgroup had an axe to grind with his former editor: basically, some woman asked the internet to pay for surgery to "remove shrapnel", he claimed she really wanted the money for a sex change operation, his editor consulted people on this newsgroup about whether he should be fired for transphobia? something like that, I don't feel like looking it up and I can't imagine any of the online summaries are credible. Hadaka Apron posted:Here's something I don't understand- why didn't all of the harassment that Chris-Chan got ever receive national attention? How do you even communicate a situation like his to people who aren't already acclimatised to all the horseshit that festers on the internet? A lot of people simply can't parse the idea of large-scale anonymous harassment or understand why people can't just "turn off their computers" or whatever, so scenarios like "mentally-stunted guy has had his entire life turned into a grotesque truman show by a mob of slightly less stunted guys" don't even register as real.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:51
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Eron Gjoni's sad 9200 word outline of his relationship doesn't mention games journalism, or the creeping SJW menace, so it's real weird that it was the catalyst for a movement reacting against those things.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:51
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Shadoer posted:Well that's pretty disingenuous. The reason why we are defending gamergate so much in this thread is because a bunch of people have come into here to attack it, preventing any other discussion. And since the main attack on gamergate is that it is inherently misogynist and all other causes it purports to support are simply a smoke screen to harass women, it's hard to discuss anything else. That is actually an advantage for GG. It's main purpose is to build group identity. So as long as GG is misunderstood, it has a reason to exist. This is why GG spends more on time on pseudo-PR than actual politics. e: Exclamation Marx posted:Eron Gjoni's sad 9200 word outline of his relationship doesn't mention games journalism, or the creeping SJW menace, so it's real weird that it was the catalyst for a movement reacting against those things. GG started out when media refused to cover said sad meltdown. e2: It really reminds me of the basic lesson of PR: the easiest way to reflect an image is to fulfil the promise given by that image (in other words, you can't polish a turd). The very structure of AGG/GG demands misinterpretation and confusion of greater issues. GG can never get rid of its bad image because it demands a bad image. It's activities, it's ideology, everything produces that bad image. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 13:05 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 12:57
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why does every gamergater have  in every one of their posts and why, if you care this much about video games, have you not killed yourself already jesus christ(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 29, 2015 12:58
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Obdicut posted:While I worked there, EA literally had a marketing policy that timed the buying of ads in trade magazines with upcoming reviews. This is the same problem that automotive or any other product journalists have; their advertisers are the people that they're reviewing. This creates an absolutely insurmountable conflict of interest. Depending on their revenue model, some 'indie' journalists may or may not be susceptible to this, but if they aren't, they lack access, and bring nothing to the table that just reading user reviews don't. There isn't any way to ever improve games journalism beyond its current state, this is the natural shape of the market, and that GGers don't realize this is part of what's funny about them. Also, their example of corruption in the gaming industry was over a lovely CYOA game that went on sale for hot, hot price of $0.00. The obsession with pretentious low budget zero gameplay indie games is not because they are a corrupting spigot of money that distorts the market around them, but because it is a battleground to fight the kulturkampf.
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Jun 29, 2015 12:59
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Broniki posted:Where in the Zoe Post does Eron write about "how her slutyness was ruining games journalism." The five guys being games journalists is not the same as Eron making a statement about industry corruption.           Ddraig posted:Nintendo literally doing what Hepler suggested and allowing parts of games to be skipped fatherboxx posted:I am familiar with the rest, but what were these about? 2) Publisher Review Events Phobophilia posted:Also, their example of corruption in the gaming industry was over a lovely CYOA game that went on sale for hot, hot price of $0.00.  Assepoester fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 13:01
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fatherboxx posted:I am familiar with the rest, but what were these about? Hepler suggested in an interview about 5 or 6 years before she was working on Dragon Age 2 that one of the things she didn't like about RPGs was that there's a way to skip dialog because people don't want to read it but there's no option for people to skip combat because people don't like those. Cue Gamers jumping on this as the worst threat that has ever come out against gaming, sending her death threats (both to her and her kids), all that other crap. Nintendo comes out several years later with their "Super Guide" mode where games literally play themselves the response is mild amusement and acceptance that it might be a neat feature for people. As for the GTA4 thing there was a lot of controversy regarding the review embargo and how IGN was the only company allowed to break it, and conveniently that review was 10s across the board. There's not a lot about this out there because unfortunately this isn't an ethical violation worthy of note unlike a woman's private life. e: There was also this: http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/video-game-journalist-fired-over-red-dead-redempti-415629/ Rush Limbo fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jun 29, 2015 |
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Jun 29, 2015 13:06
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Cardboard Box A posted:He doesn't say her sluttiness was ruining games journalism in The Zoe Post. He was happy to let channers infer that much as he used them as his personal army. Jesus loving christ, I had no idea Eron, or at least someone positioning themselves as Eron at the head of the burgeoning movement, was social engineering their way into Comfort Inn, Choice Hotels International, Inc. If that really was Eron, then I really have no sympathy left for his whining that Gamergate had rendered him unemployable.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:11
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Phobophilia posted:Jesus loving christ, I had no idea Eron, or at least someone positioning themselves as Eron at the head of the burgeoning movement, was social engineering their way into Comfort Inn, Choice Hotels International, Inc. Any chat originating from 4chan should be held to the same scrutiny as pictures of bigfoot, but Gamergate has rendered scores of people unemployable at this point.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:16
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Any chat originating from 4chan should be held to the same scrutiny as pictures of bigfoot, but Gamergate has rendered scores of people unemployable at this point. Yeah, this goes for both sides. Zoe was talking on her blog about how being anti-GG made her current boyfriend unemployable, but I think that's more due to him tweeting stuff like this:  https://twitter.com/alexlifschitz/status/576869419462238209 He's Jewish and somehow doesn't realize what that metaphor makes him sound like.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:23
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Phobophilia posted:Jesus loving christ, I had no idea Eron, or at least someone positioning themselves as Eron at the head of the burgeoning movement, was social engineering their way into Comfort Inn, Choice Hotels International, Inc. Eron lost a restraining order case against him, and has repeatedly violated said restraining order so that he can continue to "not talk" about the "girl he dumped". But somehow it's all still Zoe's fault.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:32
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Exclamation Marx posted:Eron Gjoni's sad 9200 word outline of his relationship doesn't mention games journalism, or the creeping SJW menace, so it's real weird that it was the catalyst for a movement reacting against those things. P.much The guy is basically the a typical "creepy ex boyfriend out for revenge" and it's pretty clear that was his main intent. Just since Zoe is involved in the industry, some people who read it then realized "wait a second, isn't this guy writing for Kotaku, and isn't this fellow her boss" and that's where things snowballed out of "bf revenge land".
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Jun 29, 2015 13:32
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Hadaka Apron posted:Yeah, this goes for both sides. Zoe was talking on her blog about how being anti-GG made her current boyfriend unemployable, but I think that's more due to him tweeting stuff like this: He's a literal blood money zionist so bad things happening to him is good.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:38
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Hadaka Apron posted:Yeah, this goes for both sides. Zoe was talking on her blog about how being anti-GG made her current boyfriend unemployable, but I think that's more due to him tweeting stuff like this: It doesn't make him sound like a Nazi, if that's what you're implying. And if gamergate really is just a thin veneer for harrassing women, then I don't see anything wrong with the stance that associating with the movement should be a permanent stain on your record. I certainly wouldn't hire somebody who is known to have been involved in harrassment compaigns.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:40
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It is literally impossible to follow along in this web of intrigue, misinformation, fabricated proofs, and half-truths. You can basically just pick a corner of the "debate", and no matter how ridiculous, assemble enough evidence to compile a 100 page document on how your incredibly retarded interpretation of events is the only true one. Language is dead, words mean nothing, hail satan. Unrelated, but I love the dramatic movie villain tone some of these channers have when they're discussing people who say that videogames are sometimes gross or who disagree with them. "We will assemble an army and march on their stronghold, tear it down with the fury of a thunderstorm and salt the earth with the lye from the ground bones of our hated enemy; they will rue the day that they threatened our identity as consumers of market commodities by subjecting a thing we like to mild cultural criticism. The harlots!"
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Jun 29, 2015 13:44
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Shadoer posted:P.much so this entire movement comes from a woman's ex-boyfriend claiming that she slept around for favourable coverage of her free game? and this is p. much exactly what he wanted to happen? and you think this is worth defending?
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Jun 29, 2015 13:45
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Well at least I have come from this thread being reasonably convicted there are at least some people who identify with this silly little thing whose worst sins can be summed up as being a bit tone deaf. I have started to genuinely believe there are a few guys to whom this is truly about ethics in game journalism, who file all of the within-GG misogyny under flak, and really, leaving aside if you believe these people exist - if you believe such people deserve hatred, you're the problem. On the other hand, if you are such a person: it seems a lot of people experience GG as a symbol for misogyny. You're no misogynist. Why not pick a different label? You're currently giving misogynists credibility, which is obviously bad. You're being abused by people who make games about beating Anita Sarkeesian bloody for having opinions like "video games are often sexist" to give their stupid crusade some sign of legitimacy. Is this not obviously bad? And then, if you're upset about Anita Sarkeesian, you're most likely not in the "tone deaf" category, you're in the "misogynist" category.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:46
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botany posted:It doesn't make him sound like a Nazi, if that's what you're implying. And if gamergate really is just a thin veneer for harrassing women, then I don't see anything wrong with the stance that associating with the movement should be a permanent stain on your record. I certainly wouldn't hire somebody who is known to have been involved in harrassment compaigns. Would you hire a guy who was mad at internet feminists when he was 19?
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Jun 29, 2015 13:47
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murphyslaw posted:It is literally impossible to follow along in this web of intrigue, misinformation, fabricated proofs, and half-truths. You can basically just pick a corner of the "debate", and no matter how ridiculous, assemble enough evidence to compile a 100 page document on how your incredibly retarded interpretation of events is the only true one. Language is dead, words mean nothing, hail satan. It's no wonder they chose Bane as their role model.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:47
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What's the main reason those with legitimate gripes against games journalism can't just start a different movement that specifically is not based around the harassment of women? There's plenty of legitimate gripes to be had, but #gg is poison. Gamergate isn't even a good name, gate is hackneyed for describing a scandal and gamers are not supposed to be the scandal, corporations and news and review coverage is. It would be like calling Watergate Democratgate.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:51
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Cingulate posted:Would you hire a, let's say black, ex-con convicted for e.g. a robbery when they were 19, a decade after the fact? Depends on their current state of mind, obviously. But you're right to point out that I should have stated that. I do think involvement with the whole gamergate debacle (if there's really nothing more to it than what I see in this thread) is an indicator of being a bit of an rear end in a top hat, but obviously people change.
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Jun 29, 2015 13:51
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greatn posted:What's the main reason those with legitimate gripes against games journalism can't just start a different movement that specifically is not based around the harassment of women?
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Jun 29, 2015 13:55
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botany posted:Depends on their current state of mind, obviously. But you're right to point out that I should have stated that. I do think involvement with the whole gamergate debacle (if there's really nothing more to it than what I see in this thread) is an indicator of being a bit of an rear end in a top hat, but obviously people change.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:03
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Cingulate posted:On the other hand, if you are such a person: it seems a lot of people experience GG as a symbol for misogyny. You're no misogynist. Why not pick a different label? You're currently giving misogynists credibility, which is obviously bad. You're being abused by people who make games about beating Anita Sarkeesian bloody for having opinions like "video games are often sexist" to give their stupid crusade some sign of legitimacy. Is this not obviously bad? This has the argument of Damion Schubert, a developer who continued to give GG some benefit of doubt: if you are positioning yourself as a "consumer revolt", then organise a consumer advocacy group with defined leadership, so you can represent the consumers suffering from the unethical journalism and disown the harassers/shitstirrers/idiots trying to fly your flag. To which the answer was "lol anonymous is leejun" http://www.zenofdesign.com/dear-gamergate-please-form-a-consumer-organization-kthxbye/
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Jun 29, 2015 14:05
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Cingulate posted:Would you hire a, let's say black, ex-con convicted for e.g. a robbery when they were 19, a decade after the fact? Yes and no, respectively.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:06
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Lots of people are stupid when they're 19. Isa libertarian who thought Abraham Lincoln was the worst president because he invented the income tax. People grow up a lot from their teenage years.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:08
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fatherboxx posted:This has the argument of Damion Schubert, a developer who continued to give GG some benefit of doubt: if you are positioning yourself as a "consumer revolt", then organise a consumer advocacy group with defined leadership, so you can represent the consumers suffering from the unethical journalism and disown the harassers/shitstirrers/idiots trying to fly your flag. To which the answer was "lol anonymous is leejun" no they can't do that! one of gamergates strength is that is has no leaders this is good because
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Jun 29, 2015 14:13
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greatn posted:What's the main reason those with legitimate gripes against games journalism can't just start a different movement that specifically is not based around the harassment of women? Why should people concede to something that is false and why would #GG have any reason to believe that a different movement wouldn't immediately be declared misogynist by the corrupt when that's exactly what happened the first time it was attempted.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:18
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Who What Now posted:Yes and no, respectively.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:21
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Cingulate posted:Well at least I have come from this thread being reasonably convicted there are at least some people who identify with this silly little thing whose worst sins can be summed up as being a bit tone deaf. I've said it before, but it's generally because making a new label or hashtag wouldn't do much good. There's no way to ban the rear end in a top hat harassers from a hashtag and the only thing to do is condemn them. Also there's no reason to believe it would gain any good will as other attempts to change the hashtag have resulted in people pointing to it as a "gamergate plot" However fatherboxx posted:This has the argument of Damion Schubert, a developer who continued to give GG some benefit of doubt: if you are positioning yourself as a "consumer revolt", then organise a consumer advocacy group with defined leadership, so you can represent the consumers suffering from the unethical journalism and disown the harassers/shitstirrers/idiots trying to fly your flag. To which the answer was "lol anonymous is leejun" Yeah this is one of the solutions I'd like to see. Fact is leadershipless movement usually end up flailing around everywhere and lose all focus. But the whole stupid collective hive mind thing is still somehow in vogue among activists even though it crippled both OccupyWallStreet and the Tea Party and as far as I know, has never worked ever. So Gamergate has largely kept to chewing on that poison pill.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:25
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Isn't saying "the concern with 'ethics in gaming journalism' is valid but talking about it under the GG brand invalidates the argument' just tone policing?
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Jun 29, 2015 14:28
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sick trigger posted:no they can't do that! one of gamergates strength is that is has no leaders Look how great it worked out for Occupy! Broniki posted:Why should people concede to something that is false and why would #GG have any reason to believe that a different movement wouldn't immediately be declared misogynist by the corrupt when that's exactly what happened the first time it was attempted. Because it is true, and because a new movement could avoid being labeled misogynists by not being misogynist and actively keeping those people out of it. You would have to actually have leaders and an organizational structure however.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:29
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Cingulate posted:How so? Obviously he works in organized crime and looks for people with prior experience.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:29
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Cingulate posted:How so? The black murderer has a much better chance of having reformed in the last ten years. Broniki posted:Why should people concede to something that is false and why would #GG have any reason to believe that a different movement wouldn't immediately be declared misogynist by the corrupt when that's exactly what happened the first time it was attempted. They shouldn't. But accusations of rampant bigotry within #GG aren't false, nor is anyone in the #GG movement actually interested in anything other than A) trolling ironically or unironically or B) defending the #GG movement (see: this thread). Absolutely nothing substantial has ever come out of the movement besides those two things.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:30
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Shadoer posted:Fact is leadershipless movement usually end up flailing around everywhere and lose all focus. But the whole stupid collective hive mind thing is still somehow in vogue among activists even though it crippled both OccupyWallStreet and the Tea Party and as far as I know, has never worked ever. So Gamergate has largely kept to chewing on that poison pill. Anon has had a decade to sort its poo poo out and might've learned a thing or two from its flight of fancy against scientology. Chanology was a joke. Twitter has made all of this easier. And worse.
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Jun 29, 2015 14:31
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