|
Cake Attack posted:rip Sakurazuka, posted anime in GBS a month ago what the gently caress lol
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 15:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 00:13 |
|
|
Its easier to do strategy in a turn based system than it is to do it with real time action combat. I'm cool with either but can't stand it when the battle system is sort of real time action but not quite.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 16:24
|
|
|
The best thing any turn based RPG can do (especially if it has unavoidable random trash encounters) is make sure combat can be made as blazingly fast as possible. Auto-combat is a must and turbo speed settings that skip animations and such are even better. I recall the first time I played Nocturne thinking, "why doesn't every game have this?" Also those super fast battle transitions were great. Something else that bugs me, I can't think of a single other first person dungeon crawler that had a system like Tales of the Forsaken Land's encounter system, which is mind boggling because it worked really well. Nobody is ever going to fan translate Busin 0 are they? On the subject, I don't recall who was playing it, but did anyone ever finish Operation Abyss and have any opinions on how it holds up through the game? Doesn't turn into a complete trainwreck towards the end or anything as many Wizardry clones do?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:15
|
|
|
Gwyrgyn Blood posted:The best thing any turn based RPG can do (especially if it has unavoidable random trash encounters) is make sure combat can be made as blazingly fast as possible. Auto-combat is a must and turbo speed settings that skip animations and such are even better. I recall the first time I played Nocturne thinking, "why doesn't every game have this?" Also those super fast battle transitions were great. Operation Abyss is solid. The game itself gets better at the "end of the first semester" (end of the first game) when you can level up past 15. Once you beat the game, the post-game lets you take on super bosses and increase the level cap further if you're into that sort of thing. It definitely draws from Wizardry though so depending on what issues you have with that genre it may not be your thing. I also want to say Tales of the Forsaken Land is my favorite Wizardry and I wish we'd get a new one.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:19
|
|
|
I think Dark Spire is a really good example of mechanics falling apart towards the end game, basically half the encounters turning into: 1) You wiped the enemies out entirely before they could get a turn and use breath attacks or magic on you. 2) You got ambushed or didn't wipe out all the enemies and now you are dead. Also class balance in general. Though despite that those aren't even really my biggest complaints about that game. I think I might like Wizardry 8 a little better than TotFL but that's a hard call.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:30
|
|
|
Gwyrgyn Blood posted:I think Dark Spire is a really good example of mechanics falling apart towards the end game, basically half the encounters turning into: I don't think the whole "razor's edge" aspect of combat really exists in random encounters in Operation Abyss unless you want it to. You have a meter that fills up when you win battles and and it does so, battles get progressively harder (higher level enemies, reinforcement waves, etc) up to spawning Wanted Variants (basically FoEs). You can decrease the meter simply by escaping a battle here or there so you can make your walk a bit easier. Class balance is probably an issue because at least four slots will be taken up by must have classes leaving only two for funsies.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:38
|
|
|
Although obviously not turn-based, I liked what TWEWY did with encounters. You could avoid them entirely if you liked, or choose to do them as you pleased, and chain them together if you wanted tougher, longer fights with better rewards, on top of being able to adjust the difficulty and your level on the fly too.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:47
|
|
|
Levantine posted:I don't think the whole "razor's edge" aspect of combat really exists in random encounters in Operation Abyss unless you want it to. You have a meter that fills up when you win battles and and it does so, battles get progressively harder (higher level enemies, reinforcement waves, etc) up to spawning Wanted Variants (basically FoEs). You can decrease the meter simply by escaping a battle here or there so you can make your walk a bit easier. Class balance is probably an issue because at least four slots will be taken up by must have classes leaving only two for funsies. I actually much prefer that kind of class balance over 'Every slot is either Mage or Cleric or both.' smenj posted:Although obviously not turn-based, I liked what TWEWY did with encounters. You could avoid them entirely if you liked, or choose to do them as you pleased, and chain them together if you wanted tougher, longer fights with better rewards, on top of being able to adjust the difficulty and your level on the fly too. Last Remnant does this too and it's such a good mechanic. Actually I think Minstral Song did this as well but it was weird and janky IIRC.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
Levantine posted:I don't think the whole "razor's edge" aspect of combat really exists in random encounters in Operation Abyss unless you want it to. You have a meter that fills up when you win battles and and it does so, battles get progressively harder (higher level enemies, reinforcement waves, etc) up to spawning Wanted Variants (basically FoEs). You can decrease the meter simply by escaping a battle here or there so you can make your walk a bit easier. Class balance is probably an issue because at least four slots will be taken up by must have classes leaving only two for funsies. What's the fourth beyond mage/cleric/academic? Knight?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 17:57
|
|
|
Random encounters are usually fine for me if the combat system is interesting. The Tales series is pretty good at this if you like action RPGs: when you hit a really good combo, it's exciting and the battle are usually over really quickly. With turn-based it's harder to make the combat interesting and quick, so the battles just draw out if there are any good mechanics. If I'm remembering right, Xenogears did this really well. You had turn-based combat but with combo button presses (and the animations were cool). It's all a little fuzzy, but I remember it getting pretty intricate. I remember not minding grinding in that game at least.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:02
|
|
|
Prism posted:What's the fourth beyond mage/cleric/academic? Knight? Yeah, Knight. You could probably skate early-game without one but mid-game on would be rough.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:21
|
|
|
Once again Earthbound handled trash fights the best. Enemies would actively run away from you if you out-leveled them by a certain amount, and if you chased them down, the fight would end instantly with a satisfying squish sound.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:31
|
|
|
Real hurthling! posted:if battling trash mobs were ever a source of fun for the player you'd have a point, and reading skills. You really can't think of a single turn-based RPG where non-boss battles were enjoyable to you? Also if you're going to take a jab at my reading skills how about telling me what I misread and how, dipshit
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 18:51
|
|
|
Heavy neutrino posted:You really can't think of a single turn-based RPG where non-boss battles were enjoyable to you? There's a difference between "all non boss fights" and random encounters with enemies so weak and generic it's impossible to put any strategy to it (e.g. a million Zubat encounters).
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:02
|
|
|
Heavy neutrino posted:You really can't think of a single turn-based RPG where non-boss battles were enjoyable to you?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:09
|
|
|
Endorph posted:i can think of etrian odyssey and that's it theres an EO knockoff called 7th dragon that was pretty fun. all the random encounters/environmental hazards in the dungeons served the purpose of wearing you down by attrition, so the idea was to get through random battles while conserving as much of your resources as possible so you would be in good shape to fight the boss. unfortunately the rest of the game was bad
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:14
|
|
|
Gwyrgyn Blood posted:On the subject, I don't recall who was playing it, but did anyone ever finish Operation Abyss and have any opinions on how it holds up through the game? Doesn't turn into a complete trainwreck towards the end or anything as many Wizardry clones do? I wouldn't say a trainwreck; I enjoyed it and felt like I got my money's worth, but it does have some problems. There are one or two sections toward the end where the dungeon design is just stupidly antagonistic, like an area that combines darkness and spinners while disabling your automap, but those parts are short enough that they're mostly endurable. Other people's complaints about class balance are pretty much on the money. Knight, Samurai, Physician, Wizard and Academic all have very useful and unique niches and while you can do without any of them, you'll definitely notice what you're missing out on... and then you've got Warrior, Archer, Assassin and Monk who are all single-target damage dealers that do their job in slightly different ways, and Conjurer, which is an interesting gimmicky caster class but ends up feeling like an underpowered jack-of-all-trades and isn't available until halfway through the game. Also the game seems to expect you to grind way more than you'll actually need to for any meaningful story or gameplay content; I beat the final postgame boss with my party at level 30-31, and most classes don't get their strongest spells and abilities until levels 36-40. All there really is left to do once you're at that level is battle increasingly difficult refights of the postgame boss and grind for a couple of obnoxiously grindy achievements or for item drops to fill out your item encyclopedia. Still, as long as you don't bother going for the platinum trophy (seriously, don't, one of the trophies is for fighting 3000 battles and you'll probably fight less than half that number in a normal playthrough), the mechanics hold together pretty well throughout most of the game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:20
|
|
|
I like random encounters in SMT games before the point where you become a self-sustaining deathball. So uh essentially games that make you think about resources like Etrian Odyssey and the like.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:21
|
|
|
im a very simple man and i'll enjoy a turn based system as long as there aren't random encounters and there are better options than just using the generic attack command at nearly all times
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:22
|
|
|
Cake Attack posted:im a very simple man and i'll enjoy a turn based system as long as there aren't random encounters and there are better options than just using the generic attack command at nearly all times I am down with that
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:26
|
|
|
i don't mind either, turn based or action combat. i prefer that enemies be avoidable, but i do not get upset at random encounters. i like it when you can run away from 90% of the encounters and then just barely beat the boss. it writes an interesting narrative about a group of 4 cowards who were able to topple the mighty evil.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:26
|
|
|
Thuryl posted:I wouldn't say a trainwreck; I enjoyed it and felt like I got my money's worth, but it does have some problems. There are one or two sections toward the end where the dungeon design is just stupidly antagonistic, like an area that combines darkness and spinners while disabling your automap, but those parts are short enough that they're mostly endurable. I love it when these games actually make decent use of their map hazard mechanics and I think it's terrible when you end up with stuff like half of EO's floors where there's literally nothing interesting going on. So that doesn't sound like a negative at all to me. Except maybe the Darkness part. (E: I meant early EO here since EO4 actually has generally very good dungeon design in general) Yes I'm the guy who liked Strange Journey's maps. (Too bad about the rest of the game) As far as class balance goes, I'm pretty forgiving on that stuff as long as it doesn't boil down into being mechanically dull as hell. Like even if 4 out of the 6 classes of your team are basically set in stone, if they're mechanically unique from one another it doesn't really bother me. Stuff that bothers me is when you have something like, one classes (or two classes which are nearly identical) which completely dominate everything else in the game and they're all you use. Gwyrgyn Blood fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jul 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:33
|
|
|
Gwyrgyn Blood posted:I love it when these games actually make decent use of their map hazard mechanics and I think it's terrible when you end up with stuff like half of EO's floors where there's literally nothing interesting going on. So that doesn't sound like a negative at all to me. Except maybe the Darkness part. Yeah, any two of those things alone would have been manageable but it's the combination of all three that's the problem, since there are a couple of rooms where you have literally no way to know or control what direction you're going and can only rely on blind luck to get you to the other side. Luckily that only happens in one small area of the game and once you've made your way through it you can use teleport spells to never have to do it again. Other than that one, I actually did find most of the dungeon puzzles to be pretty well-thought-out and fun. quote:As far as class balance goes, I'm pretty forgiving on that stuff as long as it doesn't boil down into being mechanically dull as hell. Like even if 4 out of the 6 classes of your team are basically set in stone, if they're mechanically unique from one another it doesn't really bother me. Stuff that bothers me is when you have something like, one classes (or two classes which are nearly identical) which completely dominate everything else in the game and they're all you use. I'd say the only class that comes close to really feeling "overpowered" rather than just "having a very useful role" is the Samurai: with good equipment they can easily tear apart random encounters from the midgame onwards and have powerful if risky offensive options against bosses as well. You could reasonably put a second samurai in your front line instead of one of the other offensive melee classes and not feel like you were missing out on much. They still greatly appreciate the supporting abilities of Knights and casting classes, though, so you wouldn't just want to fill your party with 6 of them.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
One thing which gets me with random encounter is when they're tied with exploration or puzzles. Some of my worst memories with PS1/2 rpgs is trying to going room to room trying to figure out how to progress or making sure I haven't missed any treasure and getting constant random encounters as I end up going through the same area two or three times. As for turn based battle systems, I don't have a problem with them in principle but as someone said earlier up the thread, it's really nice to have QoL speed toggles and time saving features like that. Especially with 3D games (especially in 45 minute srpg battles you can actually lose) long drawn out attack and movement animations become incredibly frustrating and a serious detriment on the actual experience of the game. Fire Emblem isn't as deep as some other srpgs but I've always enjoyed them for being able to play through as quickly as I like, even if I gently caress them up it's only 10-15 minutes down the drain most of the time. Final Fantasy Tactics on the other hand ... e: this also made Last Remnant PC tons better too, automatic QTEs not withstanding
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:47
|
|
|
The "skip enemy's turn" feature in Awakenings is amazing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:48
|
|
|
Thuryl posted:Yeah, any two of those things alone would have been manageable but it's the combination of all three that's the problem, since there are a couple of rooms where you have literally no way to know or control what direction you're going and can only rely on blind luck to get you to the other side. Luckily that only happens in one small area of the game and once you've made your way through it you can use teleport spells to never have to do it again. Other than that one, I actually did find most of the dungeon puzzles to be pretty well-thought-out and fun. It's really hard to justify a party of anything other than Knight/Sam/Warrior/Physician/Academic/Mage - the Warrior is arguably the only one who you can easily replace but you don't unlock another frontliner worth replacing them with til later in the game. Mages are not necessary, so to speak, but their spell utility is tough to pass up if only because of Float and Teleport. Their damage is obscene at higher levels though so I'm not sure why you wouldn't want one. The other classes are alright and have their niche but don't really have the utility of that basic party.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:50
|
|
|
Kild posted:It's all moot cus the [ff7] remake is gonna be bad cus its remaking a bad game. I'm playing the game for what is basically the first time right now and yeah, I don't know how much of this is nostalgia, but holy poo poo this game has some real assy design. Within the first hour you run through an identical dungeon twice, and last night I stopped when I got to a decently sized slum-town with a vague objective (find edit: A Steampunk Gent posted:One thing which gets me with random encounter is when they're tied with exploration or puzzles. Some of my worst memories with PS1/2 rpgs is trying to going room to room trying to figure out how to progress or making sure I haven't missed any treasure and getting constant random encounters as I end up going through the same area two or three times. ImpAtom posted:The problem is that the thing they know they like may not actually be the game that exists. See: The surprisingly large number of people who can't actually explain FF7's plot or characterization and which leads us to broody angsty cloud, tough tomgirl Tifa and pure maiden Aerith. Honestly so far Tifa is coming off offputting (I took an instant dislike to her when she went "Hey Mommy and Daddy are going out, watch the bar, six year old girl!"), and Aerith seems like she has developmental problems. Is she slow? I don't want to make fun of her if she's slow. "I have a special materia! It doesn't do anything!" No honey, that's a marble.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:56
|
|
|
What about best girl Yuffie? Yeah, she can be annoying at first, but she's clearly the best one out of the bunch.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Honestly so far Tifa is coming off offputting (I took an instant dislike to her when she went "Hey Mommy and Daddy are going out, watch the bar, six year old girl!"), and Aerith seems like she has developmental problems. Is she slow? I don't want to make fun of her if she's slow. Honestly, the translation really doesn't help Aerith, but she's supposed to come off as teasing and joking more often than not. It kind of comes across badly because the FF7 translation trying to handle jokes is actually worse than the FF7 translation trying to handle literally anything else.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:"I have a special materia! It doesn't do anything!" No honey, that's a marble.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 19:58
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Honestly, the translation really doesn't help Aerith, but she's supposed to come off as teasing and joking more often than not. It kind of comes across badly because the FF7 translation trying to handle jokes is actually worse than the FF7 translation trying to handle literally anything else. Actually, I'm just gonna ask in here for opinions on this: I have one friend telling me that this game is A CLASSIC AND TIMELESS and another is going "Okay, dude, you are probably going to want to use this patch to make it readable". But wasn't FF7 the game where the retranslation had some kind of weird fanfic character? I don't see that mentioned here, am I mixing things up?
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:02
|
|
|
i don't think they ever actually got around to adding him but i can't speak for the quality despite this
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:03
|
|
|
Using that patch should be a Crime... Hazzard.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:04
|
|
|
they changed moogle to moguri
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:06
|
|
|
I can't speak to the translation of the actual dialogue but so many of the 'correct' names they've gone with are loving dumb. Like Zax for Zack. Like, yeah, maybe the devs meant his name to be Zax. On the other hand, Zax is a loving dumb name, and it's not like the devs are experts on English names. Let the man be Zack.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:10
|
|
|
DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:Actually, I'm just gonna ask in here for opinions on this: I have one friend telling me that this game is A CLASSIC AND TIMELESS and another is going "Okay, dude, you are probably going to want to use this patch to make it readable". But wasn't FF7 the game where the retranslation had some kind of weird fanfic character? I don't see that mentioned here, am I mixing things up? That is the patch. They ditched the fanfiction character but the translation itself is kind of dumb. It's technically an improvement over the original translation but it still has some dumb poo poo which could have easily been avoided. They make poor translations of certain things and are overly-literal where they shouldn't be. Endorph posted:I can't speak to the translation of the actual dialogue but so many of the 'correct' names they've gone with are loving dumb. Like Zax for Zack. Like, yeah, maybe the devs meant his name to be Zax. On the other hand, Zax is a loving dumb name, and it's not like the devs are experts on English names. Let the man be Zack. Zack's name is literally written in English as Zack in Crisis Core's Japanese version. There's no excuse for trying to go for "Zax" except the kind of dumb mindset that goes "It's supposed to be BEJITA, not VEGETA, god."
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
In a corollary to my earlier observation about remaking old rear end games, RPG retranslations almost always suck because the kind of obsessive who takes on a project as large as retranslating an RPG nearly always isn't experienced enough with interacting with actual humans to produce readable dialog.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:15
|
|
|
Baby Babbeh posted:In a corollary to my earlier observation about remaking old rear end games, RPG retranslations almost always suck because the kind of obsessive who takes on a project as large as retranslating an RPG nearly always isn't experienced enough with interacting with actual humans to produce readable dialog.
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:16
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Zack's name is literally written in English as Zack in Crisis Core's Japanese version. There's no excuse for trying to go for "Zax" except the kind of dumb mindset that goes "It's supposed to be BEJITA, not VEGETA, god."
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 00:13 |
|
|
Baby Babbeh posted:In a corollary to my earlier observation about remaking old rear end games, RPG retranslations almost always suck because the kind of obsessive who takes on a project as large as retranslating an RPG nearly always isn't experienced enough with interacting with actual humans to produce readable dialog. please respect mother 3
|
|
#
?
Jul 1, 2015 20:19
|
|
