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The art of Dragonball vs the art of Jojo Part II: The Point of Panels What shape is this supposed to be?  This picture is supposed to make you see a triangle. How about this?  I'm assuming most (all?) of you were able to see a chair. You've seen a bunch of chair like this one before and millions of years of evolution have ensured that your brain is fine-tuned for pattern recognition. Fictional stories work the same way - you get some details and then use your prior experiences to interpret the details as a narrative. So what's this?  Most will understand that this is a diagram of some sort because you've seen diagrams like the before, but will be unable to identify what this diagram is supposed to depict due to unfamiliarity with the subject in question. it's a small engine's carburetor An unclear narrative is similar. a story about levirite marriage posted:A man's brother dies before begetting any heirs. The man marries his brother's widow. While having sex with his brother's widow, he pulls out before climax. God strikes him dead. You have heard other narratives, so you recognize one when you see one, but this one just kind of seems like nonsense. This story has long been used by annoying people to claim that all kinds of harmless things are bad. But let's tell the story again the way the original audience would have understood it. a story about levirite marriage posted:A man's brother dies before begetting any heirs. As custom dictates, the man is tasked with the duty of providing his brother's widow with a son, who will be legally considered his brother's son, raising that son, and managing his brother's estate until his brother's heir comes of age. The man instead decides to steal all of his brother's stuff for himself. God strikes him dead. With this context, the story becomes much more clear. The guy was a greedy dick. Just asking questions If a comic's clarity describes how easy it is to understand a story's events, intensity describes how easy it is to feel a story's mood. All else being equal, heightening a comic's intensity comes at the expense of that comic's clarity. The most common way this happens is via panel transitions. I'll use a sequence from chapter 159 of Dragonball to demonstrate.  What's Yamcha doing here? We have the requisite cultural background to understand that this is the depiction of a concerned man from the shoulders up, but it's impossible to say where the character is or why.  This is the panel that immediately precedes the one we just saw. We've seen enough cockpits or depictions of cockpits to understand that we're looking at one. So Yamcha is piloting a plane. We don't need to see the back of the plane's cabin behind Yamcha in this panel because we understand that this panel happens sequentially after the previous one, so Yamcha must still be in the plane. Now we have enough context for a narrative - Yamcha is flying a plane. He looks down as he wonders why his radar fizzed out.  In this shot we see that Bulma is behind Yamcha and it is once again clear that they're in a plane. The narrative becomes - Yamcha is flying a plane. He looks down as he wonders why his radar fizzed out. His attention is grabbed when Bulma shouts and points at something ahead. We have to make the inference that Bulma was actually here there entire time, just not in our view.  This is a totally different view than the one we had previously - we now see an airplane flying toward an explosion in the distance as well as speech bubbles. Because we've primed ourselves to look for patterns that form a narrative, we link this image with the ones that came before it in sequence. This is the plane that Yamcha is flying, only now we're seeing it from the outside. The speech bubbles must belong to either Yamcha or Bulma, and the story now goes: Yamcha is flying a plane. He looks down and wonders why his radar fizzed out. When Bulma shouts and points at something ahead, he looks up and realizes that the interference was caused by a massive explosion. Every time we jump from one panel to another, we have to figure out what's going on in the new panel based on what we've already seen. If the new panel doesn't show much in the way of scenery, more effort on the part of the reader is required for it to be understood. It follows then that all else being equal, the fewer times the viewing angle changes and the smaller any changes to the viewing angle are, the clearer the comic's story will be. Imagine that instead of four panels, we just get one like this:  Don't laugh, this happens all the time in mainstream comics. This entire setup is more clear - we don't need to make as many assumptions (in fact it would be more clear if I were doing this at home instead of at work and had redone the "shouting" speech bubbles.) So why use this  instead of this? The first is more intense. But why? It has more tension. By tension I mean it raises a question that has an interesting answer. The more uncertain and interesting the possibilities, the greater the tension. Pretty much any narrative is going to implicitly raise the question "what happens next?" but an interesting narrative narrows that down to a few enticing possibilities. So here we have a story-within-a-story. The greater narrative is that Goku is locked in a battle to the death with King Piccolo, with the tension resting on the question "Can Goku defeat Piccolo?" When we jump in here, King Piccolo just unleashed an incredible attack at Goku. We then cut to this scene. A question is raised, causing tension, "What is causing the instrument malfunction?" The resolution to that tension (Piccolo's attack caused the malfunction) sets up even greater tension than before: "If Goku was at the site of the explosion, is he still alive?" "If Yamcha and Bulma are headed in Piccolo's direction, are they in danger?" "If Piccolo can create such explosions, how can he be stopped?" Now consider this panel:  Many of you will recognize it, but let's try to look at it with fresh eyes. To understand it you have to first try to figure out what exactly you're seeing here - it's two fists meeting at the knuckes. The spatters of white-out (probably supposed to be blood?) imply force, so it's two fists punching each other. We have to use our knowledge of the series to understand that this panel shows the fists of Star Platinum and The World punching each other. Showing this moment with such an extreme close-up is much more intense than showing the same moment with a wider view since this view shows a forceful collision, but we have to think harder just to understand that this is a collision in the first place, and devoid of context it's not particularly meaningful at all.  With the previous panel next to it (now forming the entire page), it becomes clear that Star Platinum and The World have punched each other with incredible force. The entire sequence goes like this:    If you had been following the story, you would know that the greater narrative is that Jotaro is locked into a battle to the death with DIO, and the overall tension rests on "Can Jotaro defeat DIO?" In this set of panels a minature story-within-a-story also plays out. By showing the extreme close-up of the fists, the viewer starts to wonder "Will The World overpower Star Platinum?" The framing of the aftermath guides the viewer to DIO's injured hand and then to his reaction, raising the question "Has Jotaro dealt a definitive blow to DIO?" Once those are resolved, there's even greater tension as we wonder "If even that can't stop DIO, how will Jotaro manage to survive?" on top of the still unanswered question "Can Jotaro defeat DIO?" Imagine if it had gone like this:   The story hasn't changed, but far less tension has built up. The literal sequence of events is clear, but the story is less intense. Using these sorts of panel transitions to heighten suspense has some drawbacks. Every additional panel forces the reader to figure out how this view is related to the one they just saw using what they've read previously, and change in viewing distance or angle place an even higher burden on the reader. If you have an extreme close-up and you're relying on the reader to have picked up a cue four panels ago in order to understand what exactly is being shown, you run the risk that the reader didn't pick up that cue and isn't going to understand. You will find that Jojo's Bizarre Adventure uses a huge number of extreme close-ups and drastic changes in viewing angle, while Dragonball tends to use more establishing and medium distance shots.   As a result, Jojo requires more effort to read, while with Dragonball you can jump to pretty much any page and quickly get the gist of what's going on. More panels doesn't equal more intense: Much complaining has been made about "decompression" in comics, like this famous example:  It looks like western artists looked at manga and thought, hey, these Japanese comics sure have lots of panels where they don't do much! Japanese comics are popular. If we have lots of panels then our comics will be popular! Hooray! But consider that in the panels from Dragonball a story-within-a-story is actually playing out.  Goku punched Piccolo really hard and he seems pretty hurt. Has Goku defeated Piccolo? No! Now he's close to Piccolo and has a broken leg -- he can't escape! Will he even be able to survive? How can Goku defeat Piccolo? And think about these panels from Jojo:  DIO has stopped time and has dropped a steamroller (road roller?) on Jotaro. The steamroller is getting closer and closer to crushing Jotaro and Jotaro is frozen by The World's time stop. Jotaro actually looks terrified! How can Jotaro escape from this attack? Is this the end? Whereas this set: Isn't really raising any questions at all. Except maybe "What is Wolverine going to say?" which doesn't seem to be a question attached to particularly high stakes. To sum up, adding more panels increases a story's emotional intensity IF they are used to increase tension by raising and answering questions. But decompression for decompression's sake is dumb. Don't do it, bub. Coming up eventually: setting, anatomy, and violence
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Jul 2, 2015 00:54
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Okay, I'm on chapter 700/701. At the end of 701 Annasui has been seperated by Bohemian Rhapsody, so his soul is on the bus with Weather Report, and unable to communicate with him, while his body is left behind by the bus, having just survived an attack by the Big Bad Wolf. Start of the next chapter, after Spiderman, Weather Report and Annasui are standing at a street corner and Annasui tells Weather to go get the enemy Stand user. Okay, maybe they just skipped the bus journey and Annasui is just talking out of habit and adrenaline, not realising that Weather report can't hear him, but then the soul form runs into a shopdude who is gonna phone the police because he can see him and - oh wait okay the shopkeeper is some kind of summoned fictional character. I'm getting the hang of this stand! It's easier to "get" the rule of than Dragon's Dream was in any case. Huh wait, now the cops can see Anasui now too... Wait now he's escaped... how does this Stand loving work?! Edit: Damage to real buildings and such because of Kenshiro and Raoh? Thank christ it hasn't summoned Galactus or Freeza or something.
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Jul 2, 2015 01:19
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Sekkira posted:What the hell was with Luck and Pluck, though? "Pluck" fits Jonathan better than Luck would. Where Dio is incredibly lucky and is bailed out of a lot of the terrible decisions he makes, Jonathan is mainly helped by "pluck" or his tremendous courage, in addition to using his luck to his advantage, like with using that kick to impale Dio on the statue or what-have-you. Brueford is recognizing his courage by having Luck also be Pluck.
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Jul 2, 2015 01:29
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rip anime thread. arc 4 reading thread would be neat, though
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Jul 2, 2015 01:32
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I might make another thread exclusive to anime watchers, but until then they can come in here and ask any questions they need to ask.
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Jul 2, 2015 01:34
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:rip anime thread. arc 4 reading thread would be neat, though Hell yeah, I'm enjoying Koichi's Bizarre Adventure.
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Jul 2, 2015 01:45
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So the drug addict is Dio's secret lovechild? I am assuming all the other dudes Pucci has assembled at this stage are too... I thought the birthmark on his shoulder was a result of the Green Baby, like wit Pucci himself and (I presumed, since he now has weird people-detecting powers) Weather Report. But if Bohemian Rhapsody guy was Dio's kid, Dio had Johnathan's body, so he was a Joestar! What the hell is Weather report's deal!?
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Jul 2, 2015 01:52
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Agent Kool-Aid posted:rip anime thread. arc 4 reading thread would be neat, though Make the thread.
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Jul 2, 2015 01:54
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familial bonds are super tight in the jojo's universe so when pucci absorbs the power of dio and gets the birthmark, weather report does as well. it can probably be explained in the same way as how the members of the family can sense each other's presence. e: i guess i'll spoiler this
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Jul 2, 2015 01:54
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BaDandy posted:"Pluck" fits Jonathan better than Luck would. Where Dio is incredibly lucky and is bailed out of a lot of the terrible decisions he makes, Jonathan is mainly helped by "pluck" or his tremendous courage, in addition to using his luck to his advantage, like with using that kick to impale Dio on the statue or what-have-you. Brueford is recognizing his courage by having Luck also be Pluck. gently caress, is that it? I guess I just forgot "pluck" was a word. You never really hear anyone call someone "plucky", anymore.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:14
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Motherfucker, Jolyne just set her rear end on fire. Jesus christ.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:19
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Yeah, Jolyne is the most hardcore Jojo. It's like if Jotaro was exactly as cool as he thinks he is.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:29
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Beef Chief posted:I might make another thread exclusive to anime watchers, but until then they can come in here and ask any questions they need to ask.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:29
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:gently caress, is that it? I guess I just forgot "pluck" was a word. You never really hear anyone call someone "plucky", anymore.  Also loving Part 2 of comics analysis.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:32
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Versace.... crabmeat IS shellfish. You should know that. So should you, Pucci, you're the one who is allergic!
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Jul 2, 2015 02:37
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spoiler-tagging plot poo poo for a bit would be good, i suppose, but since this is the 'general' thread it would be nice if that wasn't the norm for too long. an arc 4 reading thread would definitely be the best place for anime people who probably shouldn't be subjected to discussion of how king crimson works yet.
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Jul 2, 2015 02:42
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part 7 is filled with so much...would it even be called fan service? it feels super referential, but it's supposed to be the altered timeline of the events of part 1 caused by pucci right?
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Jul 2, 2015 03:15
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Sekkira posted:What the hell was with Luck and Pluck, though? It's a period appropriate reference! http://www.pavilionpress.com/products/LUCK-AND-PLUCK-by-Horatio-Alger--.html
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Jul 2, 2015 03:20
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The Vosgian Beast posted:It's a period appropriate reference! http://www.pavilionpress.com/products/LUCK-AND-PLUCK-by-Horatio-Alger--.html Nice! minoru suzuki posted:part 7 is filled with so much...would it even be called fan service? it feels super referential, but it's supposed to be the altered timeline of the events of part 1 caused by pucci right? This isn't the universe with Irene and the gang, Araki just used the idea of it as a jumping pad to look at a completely different universe.
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Jul 2, 2015 03:22
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I thought those balls that came out of Hermes' arm were her bones all balled up and it was super gross.]]Judging by the cop though, it's just a bunch of snails, phew.
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Jul 2, 2015 03:30
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Jolyne is what happened when Araki looked at that scene in Part 4 where Josuke drives a motorcycle through a hospital window and into an elevator and decided to make a JoJo that just does that kind of poo poo all the time.
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Jul 2, 2015 03:30
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Now Hermes is.... turning into... a snail. Okay. "You know how you can tell girls who'll go out with you from girls who wont? Just try to tell if they're smarter than your nearest tree, and if the look dumber than a tree, chances are they'll come with you." 
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Jul 2, 2015 03:37
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Finally got around to listening to the Part 3 anime's OST, and I'm honestly surprised just how many tracks there were. My main memory of the show's music is some variation of the main heroic theme (appropriately titled Stardust Crusaders), and while I know all these tracks were used I can barely remember most of them. Not that that's a bad thing: the constant use of Stardust Crusaders kind of annoyed me at first coming off of the first anime, but now that it's over I feel like it really works since the whole thing's practically a monster of the week show. It's good to have a recurring leitmotif tying every (?) episode together. Now I'm even more impatient for Diamond is Unbreakable to get animated just because I want to know what the music would be like.
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Jul 2, 2015 04:27
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BlitzBlast posted:Now I'm even more impatient for Diamond is Unbreakable to get animated just because I want to know what the music would be like. I think I know.
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Jul 2, 2015 04:34
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Didn't Stardust Crusaders take place in '89 not '87?
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Jul 2, 2015 04:39
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Spoiler tag for now, I will have the thread done tonight or tomorrow.
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Jul 2, 2015 04:39
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So, just how bad exactly are the old Vento Aureo translations? Because they have these giant warnings right at the start of them which is worrying enough, but if they're... at least functional, I'll put up with it for the remainder of the bit I'm at then just wait or come back later and skip to Stone Ocean for now.
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Jul 2, 2015 04:44
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They're not actually translations, they're just putting words together. I remember in particular someone talking about how Italian was the most beautiful language in the world, when he wasn't saying even vaguely similar in the fixed version.
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Jul 2, 2015 04:56
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Heeeeeeeh. It should be this.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:13
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There is a 50% chance that it will be a Queen song.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:19
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littleorv posted:There is a 50% chance that it will be a Queen song. Killer Queen will be the new Holy Diver.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:24
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Even if Holy Diver never showed up, which it totally should have, it was thinks to this series I discovered the music of DIO and I love it.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:26
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No, it was all gravity.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:39
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http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3729048 There, spoilers tags are gone now, eat poop.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:Heeeeeeeh. It should be this. The gently caress is this "radio edit" poo poo
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Jul 2, 2015 06:07
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Well that was certainly an end to part 6. Kind of abrupt but I honestly kind of dug it, in a weird way. I think a more conventional end would have added to the all action all the time fatigue that sort of set in once they escaped the prison (as great as some of those fights were).
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Jul 2, 2015 06:30
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Enourmo posted:The gently caress is this "radio edit" poo poo Well, it was the shortest version I could find. Best version is the Live in Pompei one, of course. WHY DIDN'T KOICHI SHOW UP IN THE POMPEI ARC, HUH!?
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Jul 2, 2015 07:04
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Magazine print on the right, Tankobon on the left. From here: http://blog.livedoor.jp/jojolab Fascinating site as a whole.
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Jul 2, 2015 07:37
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The dialogue is different too. I knew they changed art from magazine to tokobon, but I didn't think the text could change as well.
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Jul 2, 2015 07:43
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| # ? May 9, 2024 22:30 |
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Jesus, One Piece had only been going for about a year when Stone Ocean was going on. Steel Ball Run lasted a long time.
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Jul 2, 2015 07:54
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