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Effectronica posted:If you use the phrase "outrage culture", you don't agree, actually. I haven't used the phrase "outrage culture" once in this discussion. I think you're confused.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:22
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Obdicut posted:No? Why would that be the case? Because if they really are looking for ethical infractions, they'd have to assume journalists are going to commit them. Obdicut posted:They think all games journalists have ethical problems? Why? And do they want to just destroy all games journalism, or make it better? Do they really find no journalists good? I don't know how they feel about all journalists. I think they like Erik Kain, I don't know how they treat him. I don't know why they think what they think. It mostly seems to be a misinterpretation of standard enthusiast press relationships with the people they cover, along with attributing consumer disdain to outlets that state opinions they disagree with (example: Arthur Gies says people not working at Maxis literally don't understand how much effort it would take to implement off-line play, they take this as an attack rather than a factual statement about the realities of game development). They've made alternate games journalism websites, so perhaps they want to replace what they perceive as corrupt with what they perceive to be pure. Once again I don't know. Obdicut posted:What I mean is that the big studios like GG. They have no problem with it. They get to do whatever the hell they want, GGers go after the journalists that criticize the big studios, and the only winner are the studios. The majority of the journalists that GGers go after appear to be the indie ones--totally coincidentally, I'm sure, the ones making criticisms about diversity in games. Ok, this makes sense. Yes, GG should be advocating for a highly critical, diverse and inquisitive games enthusiast press. I've never really understood the obsession some fans/people have with letting developers know that their work is appreciated as-is in response to criticisms, because, as you say, the larger developers can generally do whatever they want as long as it isn't considered financially risky. However, there are definitely articles that come off as fanboyish in their own way that I think deserve skepticism. Not because they come from corruption, but because they come from a non-representative viewpoint. Two examples of that for me are the Kotaku Diablo 3 article defending the "always online" nature of the game and the glowing reviews of Bioshock Infinite that didn't even mention the use of racism as disposable wallpaper in the story. I'm sure both those pieces made sense for the writers, but they were never going to mesh with my personal perspective on those two things.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:22
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Obdicut posted:Okay, and if GGers stopped their bullshit and went away, the anti-GGers wouldn't have anyone to fight with, right? Unfortunately, it's really not that simple. The thing to understand is that, while Gamergate has been around since last August, that wasn't so much the inception of something new so much as it was putting a name and a slight bit of organization around a thing that had been ongoing for years. Because at its core, Gamergate is just Video Game Conservatives, fighting to maintain the status quo from charges of bigotry and the encroachment of feminist and more inclusionary thought. When Anita's kickstarter happened in 2013, the people who started spewing rape and death threats and producing poo poo like "Beat Up Anita Sarkeesian" weren't Gamergate, but they were elements stemming from the same core motivation. Zoe Quinn was already on their radar before the whole Zoe Post thing from when she tried to get Depression Quest added to Steam via Greenlight. To go a little into recent history, Tauriq Moosa, the author of that Polygon piece about The Witcher 3 and its lack of diversity, quit Twitter recently because of the harassment he was getting. The common attribution was that, basically, he'd been run off the service by Gamergaters. Leigh Alexander wrote a little about this (this is a string of tweets put together): quote:I just heard about Tauriq. I understand very well the stress that taking a stand on social media can induce — But attributing it to ‘GamerGate’, as if we were ‘fighting’ some organized ‘group’, is not constructive — This is the same hate that we’ve always gotten in this field, just organized under a banner. And it could also happen in other fields. So, basically, even if Gamergate were to somehow vanish and go away, that doesn't mean that suddenly we'd have this absence of conservatism in the video game space, they'd just move on to a new name, or going back to being spread apart. The intensity of the harassment might decrease as you don't have these boards with a critical mass mob mobilizing, but it's not like this would just go away. It's not a problem of "Gamergate", it's a problem of bigotry, and it just so happens that "Gamergate" is a name attached to a concentrated hive of it. In a way, the best comparison you can really make to Gamergate is the Tea Party. The "formation" of the Tea Party didn't create a new group of people with lovely regressive attitudes, it just served as a point of congregation for people who already had lovely regressive attitudes. And if something happened tomorrow to ensure that no one claimed membership in the Tea Party ever again, it doesn't mean those people who subscribed to that label are going to suddenly stop having lovely regressive attitudes. thefncrow fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 05:23
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Oh you think that a system of oppression that millions still bear the scars of today in their daily lives might be a little offensive to use as an "edgy" plot point in a french video game? Well perhaps you forgot to check your dictionary, because
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Jul 2, 2015 05:25
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30.5 Days posted:Oh you think that a system of oppression that millions still bear the scars of today in their daily lives might be a little offensive to use as an "edgy" plot point in a french video game? Shut it down, cancel the drat game, someone is offended by words.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:35
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thefncrow posted:Unfortunately, it's really not that simple. The tea party comparision isn't quite fitting since I don't think gg has the financial support of the obscenely wealthy, unless you count what Obdicut said about AAA loving gg because they attack critics. GG claims its biggest strength is that it has no formal leader, which does grant them some power but its also their biggest liability since anybody can claim to be them and do whatever. Like I said earlier, you have a large group of angry people who feel ignored. You are going to need a better approach than "gently caress them they are just pissbaby loser virgins." And I will choose to disrespect Leigh by forgetting that. She keeps wrestling that pig.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:38
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I hate yankees posted:Shut it down, cancel the drat game, someone is offended by words. And this game came out. Fallout. How many people died by Fallout. It's.... shocking.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:39
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Uncle Wemus posted:The tea party comparision isn't quite fitting since I don't think gg has the financial support of the obscenely wealthy, unless you count what Obdicut said about AAA loving gg because they attack critics. GG claims its biggest strength is that it has no formal leader, which does grant them some power but its also their biggest liability since anybody can claim to be them and do whatever. Like I said earlier, you have a large group of angry people who feel ignored. You are going to need a better approach than "gently caress them they are just pissbaby loser virgins." There are multiple small/indie devs who posted in this thread and its ancestors who explicitly liked GG because of its potential to terrorize reviewers.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:40
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Obdicut, you're a pretty reasonable person throughout the thread, so you're likely the best person to pose this to. Firstly, let's forget the gamergate idiots. It was always a dumb "movement", and is way too interested in the personal lives of female journalists. Now, what I think is a major disconnect between game nerds and social activists seems to be that the game nerds don't agree on what should be considered sexism. Take the final fantasy Cid example earlier, a woman in a low cut top and rediuculous half coat. To the game nerd, it's just a lovely outfit, instead of some harmful example of a supposed "need" for sexualized female characters. They then look at an academic analysis of sexism, valid though it may be in the macro sense, as a silly intrusion into a game they like. Possibly even a character they like. Then come the loudmouths. The inevitable self-righteous assholes of every movement on the Internet will invariably start poo poo with the latest tribal Other. "You're a misogynist/racist/MRA/Gamergater/Nazi/Republican, if you don't agree with us." Followed or preceded by "feminazi/SJW/puritan/etc." Quickly you have an entrenched group, convinced that you want to take every hint of sexuality or violence out of "their" games. Due to the assholes, not much actual conversation can take place between "sides". My question is, what do we do to fix this sort of thing?
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Jul 2, 2015 05:40
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Uncle Wemus posted:The tea party comparision isn't quite fitting since I don't think gg has the financial support of the obscenely wealthy, unless you count what Obdicut said about AAA loving gg because they attack critics. GG claims its biggest strength is that it has no formal leader, which does grant them some power but its also their biggest liability since anybody can claim to be them and do whatever. Like I said earlier, you have a large group of angry people who feel ignored. You are going to need a better approach than "gently caress them they are just pissbaby loser virgins." I agree, you definitely need something better than "gently caress them, they're just loser virgins". It's the same thing as "gently caress them, they're just angry 14 year olds". Or, drawing parallels to bigotry in other arenas, that opposition to gay marriage was just "they're just old people who will die off". The commonality of all those sentiments is that this is some problem caused by dead-enders that will rectify itself over time. That's simply not true.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:42
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Effectronica posted:There are multiple small/indie devs who posted in this thread and its ancestors who explicitly liked GG because of its potential to terrorize reviewers. Their was a cute theory Anti gg was throwing around that gamergate and its tactics were specifically designed and handed down by the owner of escapist.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:43
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Talmonis posted:Obdicut, you're a pretty reasonable person throughout the thread, so you're likely the best person to pose this to. You can't, because there are reasons why people react poorly to that sort of criticism which are baked into society's fabric, to mix metaphors, and eliminating those reasons would eliminate 90% or more of the reasons why that criticism exists.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:43
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There's also a third case - that the game nerds likes the cleavage and don't want it to go away. This falls in line with the same sort of person as the "I play as women in third person games because I don't want to see guy's butts for 40 hours" mentality.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:45
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thefncrow posted:Unfortunately, it's really not that simple. Gamergate is way larger and well put together than any Anita hatemob, though I do agree that they are definitely a part of it. I legitimately believe a large part of it's because of the narrative shaping/pushing that is coming from journalist sympathetic to academic games feminism. Here's my earlier post on the subject. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3727984&userid=212382#post447174579
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Jul 2, 2015 05:48
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I begrudgingly accept political think tanks shaping narratives in national politics, but I legitimately hate it and will support whoever I can to weaken it in a hobby space like videogames. financially corrupt journalism is preferred.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:50
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Effectronica posted:There are multiple small/indie devs who posted in this thread and its ancestors who explicitly liked GG because of its potential to terrorize reviewers. Well if the little guy is doing it then it can't be ALL bad.  Talmonis posted:Now, what I think is a major disconnect between game nerds and social activists seems to be that the game nerds don't agree on what should be considered sexism. Take the final fantasy Cid example earlier, a woman in a low cut top and rediuculous half coat. To the game nerd, it's just a lovely outfit, instead of some harmful example of a supposed "need" for sexualized female characters. They then look at an academic analysis of sexism, valid though it may be in the macro sense, as a silly intrusion into a game they like. Possibly even a character they like. thefncrow posted:I agree, you definitely need something better than "gently caress them, they're just loser virgins". It's the same thing as "gently caress them, they're just angry 14 year olds". Or, drawing parallels to bigotry in other arenas, that opposition to gay marriage was just "they're just old people who will die off". This is true and why I think there needs to be an outreach or something. GG and people like them have such a hard time with femfreq partly because they don't even accept feminism 101 so what hope do they have? As I said before people can already sort of understand what shes talking about judging by the lingering hatred of Metroid: Other M. There will always be some trolls and chances are you'll never be able to express a "progressive" opinion online without someone calling you a human being, but that doesn't mean just ignoring people hoping that they die off.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:52
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computer parts posted:There's also a third case - that the game nerds likes the cleavage and don't want it to go away. This falls in line with the same sort of person as the "I play as women in third person games because I don't want to see guy's butts for 40 hours" mentality. I can understand that people don't want it in every game and if a game is trying to be serious and mature it probably shouldn't break out the f-cups. I'm not sure Dragon Age or Mass Effect games really qualify as serious or mature. Button=awesome fantasy with nerd jokes and space opera with nerd jokes is the natural habitat for gratuity.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:56
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Talmonis posted:Obdicut, you're a pretty reasonable person throughout the thread, so you're likely the best person to pose this to. The irony here is that you just described what the leftist social justice crowd does and continues to do, but you can't see that because it's your "team". You're literally part of the problem. You cannot pigeonhole an entire group of people, particularly one who spends 21 billion a year on a hobby, and act surprised when they tell you to gently caress off. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.
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Jul 2, 2015 05:58
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Uncle Wemus posted:I can understand that people don't want it in every game and if a game is trying to be serious and mature it probably shouldn't break out the f-cups. The problem with that logic is that "serious" games tend to be ones where women just don't show up at all, like Generic Military Shooter #50. Also, why should "non-serious" games necessarily have to cater to those male fantasies? We remember stuff like Bulletstorm for humorous dialog, not a scantily clad woman (who incidentally almost had larger breasts).
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Jul 2, 2015 06:07
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30.5 Days posted:Oh you think that a system of oppression that millions still bear the scars of today in their daily lives might be a little offensive to use as an "edgy" plot point in a french video game? There's a different meaning for it, language evolves and they can tell it apart by context?
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Jul 2, 2015 06:09
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30.5 Days posted:Oh you think that a system of oppression that millions still bear the scars of today in their daily lives might be a little offensive to use as an "edgy" plot point in a french video game? You're being overly reductive to prove your point. They writers have spoken and clearly discussed how and why they are using the concept. If you think video games handling these matters trivializes them just say so, but nowhere has anyone on the team used it in order to be "edgy." And the game is Canadian not French.
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Jul 2, 2015 06:11
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computer parts posted:The problem with that logic is that "serious" games tend to be ones where women just don't show up at all, like Generic Military Shooter #50. Why shouldn't they? Also wasn't there only 1 woman in Bulletstorm? Not asking that to make some point I just can't remember.
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Jul 2, 2015 06:18
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everyone involved in this loving retardation needs to spend a few days reflecting on how disappointed their parents must be (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 2, 2015 06:18
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I hate yankees posted:The irony here is that you just described what the leftist social justice crowd does and continues to do, but you can't see that because it's your "team". You're literally part of the problem. I don't see any articles from gaming press that insult everyone who plays video games. I see articles that describe a subset of gamers as mysoginistic pricks, and if you take that personally, it's on you, not the author. Like all these "death of the gamer" articles? I interpret every one as a criticism of certain toxic and hateful elements in the gaming community. I don't at all see it as an indictment of all gamers. That seems like a mental defensive mechanism to deflect blame and criticism.
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Jul 2, 2015 06:27
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Uncle Wemus posted:Why shouldn't they? There are three characters. Two are guys and one is a woman. I think every enemy in the game is a guy.
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Jul 2, 2015 06:53
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*calls Witcher 3 racist, get backlash from polish people saying they are under represented minorities that are treated with disdain and outright hate in every country, says they don't have their own culture, wonders why people are mad*
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Jul 2, 2015 06:56
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:*calls Witcher 3 racist, get backlash from polish people saying they are under represented minorities that are treated with disdain and outright hate in every country, says they don't have their own culture, wonders why people are mad* Did that Polygon writer actually say Polish people didn't have their own culture? Not being a prick, I just like laughing at silly statements like that. Got a link?
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Jul 2, 2015 07:01
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Unfunny Poster posted:Did that Polygon writer actually say Polish people didn't have their own culture? Not being a prick, I just like laughing at silly statements like that. Got a link? Pretty sure it wasn't actually the same dude, just another game journo defending his piece by saying all white people are the same and have the same privilege, which I'm sure is news to the polish people!
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Jul 2, 2015 07:05
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:Pretty sure it wasn't actually the same dude, just another game journo defending his piece by saying all white people are the same and have the same privilege, which I'm sure is news to the polish people! Wasn't it Zoe's boyfriend? I know he at least said that the slavs were "anglo"
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Jul 2, 2015 07:15
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Unfunny Poster posted:Did that Polygon writer actually say Polish people didn't have their own culture? Not being a prick, I just like laughing at silly statements like that. Got a link? It was something to the effect of "there isn't really such a thing as slavic/polish mythology". e: This isn't Polygon, but I think this is where the quote comes from, at least the one I was thinking of. You might be referring to something else. http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2015/06/04/witcher-3-and-diversity/ quote:As an actual Slavic person, who was born and grew up in Poland, I feel that I should chime in here. Motto fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 07:24
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White people have no culture, at least that's what their friends on tumblr told them.
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Jul 2, 2015 07:33
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afeelgoodpoop posted:. I legitimately believe a large part of it's because of the narrative shaping/pushing that is coming from journalist sympathetic to academic games feminism. I agree! But where you see this as a natural and agreeable thing, I just see a bunch of extremely sensitive shutins freaking out because they do not have the only acceptable opinion anymore. I support free speech so I think that all opinions are good, so long as nobody is harrassing anyone or accusing anyone of trying to elimiate gamer culture or whatever.
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Jul 2, 2015 07:36
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Not sure if this has been linked yet, obdicut, but since you asked this was gamergate's attempt to address the ethical problems in games journalism. It's all there in all its boring glory if you really want to read through it. http://deepfreeze.it/ Gianthogweed fucked around with this message at 08:19 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 07:41
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Gianthogweed posted:Not sure if this has been linked yet, obdicut, but since you asked this was gamergate's attempt to address the ethical problems in games journalism. It's all there in all its boring glory if you really want to read through it. There's something magical about a bunch of people getting upset about nepotism in hobbyist journalism and describing a private mailing list as "cronyist groupthink". It's almost like they are extremely unfamiliar with how humans interact in society or something. Why, it's even as if advancement in some insular industries rely on recommendations and personal relationships instead of ability to score on a standardized test! boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Jul 2, 2015 |
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Jul 2, 2015 07:48
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Gianthogweed posted:Not sure if this has been linked yet, obdicut, but since you asked this was gamergate's attempt to address the ethical problems in games journalism. It's all there in all its boring glory if you really want to read through it. I really don't like the idea that you need to be in the game journo social scene to get press as an indie dev, but most of these examples are incredibly inconsequential.
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Jul 2, 2015 07:51
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Gianthogweed posted:Not sure if this has been linked yet, obdicut, but since you asked this was gamergate's attempt to address the ethical problems in games journalism. It's all there in all its boring glory if you really want to read through it. It's been posted in the thread before. Again, I'm not sure how a professional email list constitutes a breach of ethics. They also gently caress up the work history of every single person there. A bunch of these people are freelancers and have never been staff anywhere.
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Jul 2, 2015 08:27
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This is from way back butafeelgoodpoop posted:You deny sympathy to stupid people aswell? I just want to illuminate something here that is very relevant to this, one of the prominent GGers that came out against the gamers are dead articles was a mother who had a severely mentally deficient child. She and her son are gamers, when she read leighs hateful article it made her feel like complete poo poo because she knew if her son had read that, it would have hosed him up and made him feel greatly more alienated in the gaming community. This is a legit issue and yall are looking really bad trying to mock it. Here is the article in question (trigger warning: hate speech against g4m3rs): http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php You are entirely free to bring out your mspaint red markers and circle the bits that are so hateful that they will destroy the self-confidence of a little boy. Show us on the doll where Leigh touched you.
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Jul 2, 2015 08:29
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murphyslaw posted:Show us on the doll where Leigh touched you. Probably on the nazi insignias.
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Jul 2, 2015 08:48
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The kid shouldn't have been wearing a Nazi uniform in the first place.
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Jul 2, 2015 09:07
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Taking a step sideways, Im interested in the demographics of this, what proportion of people on both side are American? Some justification to this query: I feel that majority of identity politics debate Ive seen here and on Twitter seems to be mainly Americans. Are Americans the majority on social media? At least here on SA I think they are.
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Jul 2, 2015 09:08
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