The Snark posted:

I would love to see your list of un-problematic games and media.

Exmond posted:

What if someone thought Pinsof was hireable? Would they speak up in a group conversation where everyone is bashing him?

Talmonis posted:

Because in the case of an organized boycott, if you don't participate in said boycott, you're then "A Sexist." "A Racist." or any other "ist." that the boycott is protesting. You're suddenly a monster and a misogynist for breaking the boycott. "Why do you hate women?" It could (and has been) be said, if you chose to buy a game under a feminist boycott. Now you're a pariah. Persona non grata to anyone who wants to remain in the group and not also be considered unclean

quote:

All of the NPCs are there to ignore, kill or knock out as the only possible interaction. There is no "intended perverse pleasure" from helpless bodies. Again, the only difference in the hitman example was that they were strippers. If the male NPC's were more talkative, or more interactive, there would be a point to all this. It doesn't make sense as a general statement, she is specific about pervers pleasure desecrating only the female bodies. Which is false.

Slanderer posted:

A reminder that you haven't addressed how exactly people have been left homeless and destitute because they refused to be forced to make feminist games.

Gianthogweed posted:

I don't know how much more specific I can be than what they've already written, cited with examples. I mean I could copy and paste it into my post, but then you don't get the citations or links.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Almost everything can be found to have elements that are worthy of critique and concern as everything exists in the larger sociological system that created it. Why do you think art exists that cannot be seen as both a positive and negative reflection of the society that influenced it?

And why do you think considering the larger sociological implications of the media we consume is a bad thing to do? Do you think it means we cannot enjoy it?

Nevvy Z posted:

People keep talking about Hitman like it is not part of a systematic issue where stripclubs in games are a gratuitous and unnesscary excuse to show pixelated tits.

Talmonis posted:

Simply not buying something you don't like is not a boycott, at least not in the sense that I'm referring to; which is the organized boycott.

Because in the case of an organized boycott, if you don't participate in said boycott, you're then "A Sexist." "A Racist." or any other "ist." that the boycott is protesting. You're suddenly a monster and a misogynist for breaking the boycott. "Why do you hate women?" It could (and has been) be said, if you chose to buy a game under a feminist boycott. Now you're a pariah. Persona non grata to anyone who wants to remain in the group and not also be considered unclean

quote:

All of the NPCs are there to ignore, kill or knock out as the only possible interaction. There is no "intended perverse pleasure" from helpless bodies.

quote:

Again, the only difference in the hitman example was that they were strippers. If the male NPC's were more talkative, or more interactive, there would be a point to all this. It doesn't make sense as a general statement, she is specific about perverse pleasure desecrating only the female bodies. Which is false.

quote:

I think you're also wrong by insinuating that anything that is possible, is intended as the primary choice. Killing a female character in a game where anyone can die, for example. That's not how it's "intended" to be played, that's a way it can be played.

quote:

It's just my self-depricating way of acknowledging that I'm aware that I can come off as abrasive and combative.

Exmond posted:

I don't think we are going to agree on this . Saying "Dont hire this guy" in space with the major players in your industry, while you yourself are a major player, is wrong.

quote:

Such discussions should be person to person, or brought up as a reference point. Not in a group discussion with everyone.

quote:

What if someone thought Pinsof was hireable? Would they speak up in a group conversation where everyone is bashing him?

Obdicut posted:

The first bit is her point. All the NPCs are there for that, but only the women are sexualized. And if you don't think it's supposed to be pleasurable to engage in that game mechanic, I don't really know what to say.

INH5 posted:

You can take the clothes off of any male NPC after incapacitating them, leaving them in tighty whities.

INH5 posted:

You can take the clothes off of any male NPC after incapacitating them, leaving them in tighty whities.

Mel Mudkiper posted:

The Snark posted:

You're asking me why I have a lot of beliefs I have not said I have. That I do not, in fact, actually have.

Since your last question does not rely on the conceit you have some novel form of telepathy however, I'll answer it. I think we can indeed- do you?

Rebochan posted:

gently caress, I'm going to hate touching this poop again but...


Hi. I'm a game dev, and a GGer stalked me, found out my BOSS's personal information, called him in the middle of the night and screamed at him to fire me at once for being insulting to Gamergate as a movement. And then bragged about doing it in public as a way to intimidate me and anyone like me. Thank god I found out my boss is one of the few decent people in this industry that stands by his staff, because I was dead certain I was going to be fired for allowing it to happen at all. We're so loving expendable in this industry I wouldn't have been surprised.

But please, I want to hear more about how it's AGG that's "full of harassment". Because my personal experience is in the realm of "never". And unfortunately for my sympathies for GG, I professionally and personally know a significant number of victims of GG harassment and zero who've been personally stalked or harassed, IN REAL LIFE, by someone who doesn't find them "inclusive" enough.

quote:

Q: After being displayed on Randi Harper’s twitter did you receive any difference in negative attention or more specific threats?

Csefalvay: I actually started receiving unpleasant emails around the time I put out my first analysis which was earlier than my first interaction with Harper. They weren’t exactly great but they were in the realm of the bearable; the classic you should die or go set yourself on fire etc. , which happens to be a favorite phrase of Ms. Harper’s. Now, obviously once she got involved, that’s when it got particularly vile. That is when it got into the realm of very graphic and very shockingly violent threats. Now I must add at this point that I’ve seen my fair share of death threats before. When you grow up in eastern Europe and grow up in a very political household you end up getting bullets through the mail and if you’re doing well enough could get shot at. So you get used to these things, I don’t consider most of these things I’ve received as actual death threats.

Q: So you’re saying you’ve dealt with death threats in your home life, but the ones you received during this ordeal were different?

Csefalvay: What we need to be clear about here is credible death threats in my views means to a method of opportunity. A lot of these people might have the motive; very few would have probably had the means to actually get to me. Even if they had the actual opportunity to actually be able to pull it off so when some random persons tweets or emails me from the safety of his or her mother’s basement, or where ever these people live, that they are going to decapitate me and all that I am not overly perturbed. I’d say the worst that I’ve seen in and around Gamergate, and I’ve noticed this from both sides actually, is interpreting everything as a threat and almost relishing in the role of a victim. Almost being proud that someone found you worthy of threatening; that goes to a point of absurdity.

I’ve seen real death threats from people who mean it in the past. None of this, I believe, were real to that extent; however, you can’t discount them. That is one of the curses of loving another person. One of the worst things about loving another person very very deeply is that you’re no longer free to do the crazy things that you would otherwise heartily pull off on your own. While I would not have been very concerned about my own safety ,and probably would haven’t of given a crap about any of this if it had been just me, the fact that some of them began to include my wife made me very worried.

The Snark posted:

Can you enjoy problematic media? Does doing so make you a bad person?

Obdicut posted:

Yes, you can. I'm sorry, do you think this is in some way a response to what I said? If you do something extra, you can sexualize male characters. But female characters begin sexualized.

ikanreed posted:

God drat how does this stupid movement still exist?

INH5 posted:

For one thing, unlike attacking the strippers, stripping incapacitated male NPCs is something that you absolutely have to do many times over the course of the game, because you need to do that to get disguises, and most if not all (I haven't played this particular game myself, only watched LPs) of the game's levels cannot be completed without at least one disguise.

For another thing, there are some female NPCs that don't start off sexualized (for example, crowd members in the Chinatown level who wear normal street clothes), and unlike male NPCs you can't strip them after incapacitating them.

INH5 posted:

For one thing, unlike attacking the strippers, stripping incapacitated male NPCs is something that you absolutely have to do many times over the course of the game, because you need to do that to get disguises, and most if not all (I haven't played this particular game myself, only watched LPs) of the game's levels cannot be completed without at least one disguise.

quote:

For another thing, there are some female NPCs that don't start off sexualized (for example, crowd members in the Chinatown level who wear normal street clothes), and unlike male NPCs you can't strip them after incapacitating them.

The Snark posted:

http://gawker.com/what-is-gamergate-and-why-an-explainer-for-non-geeks-1642909080


It's all about misogyny you see. Gamergaters are all Misogynists, and naturally as a result would want to have all women out of any form of their hobby- also remember They are horrible monsters.

The Droid posted:

The sentiments behind it (good and bad) have been stewing for years. As seen in this awful videos that precede gamergate by a year or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr7u1tWsGBk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt5mWCEsi-w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Rjhyos_ERs

Obdicut posted:

I don't know why you keep fixating on Hitman. I've repeated over and over that we're talking about more than just Hitman, we're talking about this across games, as is the article, but all you talk about is HItman. Can you explain why?

Obdicut posted:

Are these the 'ethics in games journalism' sentiments, or the 'feminists are trying to ruin gaming' sentiments?

Nevvy Z posted:

Dog whistle sexism. It's not about the widespread sociological issue it's about that one fact she got wrong about one game.

The Droid posted:

As I said, both can be seen in the dozen or so "/v/ the musical" videos.The three I linked focused primarily on journalism, but even there you see the occasional jab at tumblr and whatnot.


I don't think that's how the term "dog whistle" works.

The Droid posted:

As I said, both can be seen in the dozen or so "/v/ the musical" videos.The three I linked focused primarily on journalism, but even there you see the occasional jab at tumblr and whatnot.

Nevvy Z posted:

"by saying, “friend of the family, friend of the family, friend of the family.” By 1968 you can’t say “friend of the family”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “friend of the family, friend of the family.”"

Except instead of staying "Bitch slut ruining my games" you say "oh but that critique she did was INACCURATE"

Obdicut posted:

Yeah, that's a stretch. I'd say 'not seeing the forest for the trees'.

Nevvy Z posted:

When people defend indefensible positions for really pedantic reasons that's all I hear.

Reaganball Z posted:

What do the pro-Sarkeesian people think about anti-social behavior in more respected media? Does Crime and Punishment encourage violence? Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist?

Reaganball Z posted:

Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist?

Obdicut posted:

Yeah, sorry, I'm not watching random chan videos.

The Droid posted:

I'm not blaming you specifically, but this sort of thing is also something that's been happening a lot that people have a problem with. I could understand if its a 30 minute rant by a nutso like Sargon of Akkad or whatever but you also get things like people commenting on the content of the zoepost without so much a skimming it and relying on hearsay etc.

The Droid posted:

I'm not blaming you specifically, but this sort of thing is also something that's been happening a lot that people have a problem with. I could understand if its a 30 minute rant by a nutso like Sargon of Akkad or whatever but you also get things like people commenting on the content of the zoepost without so much a skimming it and relying on hearsay etc.

Reaganball Z posted:

What do the pro-Sarkeesian people think about anti-social behavior in more respected media? Does Crime and Punishment encourage violence? Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist?

Hadaka Apron posted:

She even yelled at an anti-GG woman whom she thought was too moderate and ran her out of the movement:

Reaganball Z posted:

What do the pro-Sarkeesian people think about anti-social behavior in more respected media? Does Crime and Punishment encourage violence? Should Cosi Fan Tutti be censored because its sexist?

Nevvy Z posted:

I don't think that's a fair analogy because I don't think there are videogames that rise to this level of discourse.

Obdicut posted:

I haven't participated in any boycotts, and yet have not been called a sexist, a monster, or a misogynist. Is it possible you're engaging in some rather ludicrous hyperbole? i'm sure I've broken some.


The first bit is her point. All the NPCs are there for that, but only the women are sexualized. And if you don't think it's supposed to be pleasurable to engage in that game mechanic, I don't really know what to say.


Again, if you read her actual article, she is not, in that part you're harping on, referring to Hitman. Please reread the article.


These are synonymous. It's intended that the player can play that way. This is just semantics. It's a gameplay option made available to the character as a valid choice. it's not something you have to exploit or something the devs didn't intend: it's a pathway they mapped out.


It's got a few flaws to it.

Obdicut posted:

Okay, first of all, this happens in every industry, all the time: it is the norm. I have done it myself: I have called people after a guy got fired, because I know my company wouldn't tell the people he'd be applying to, to tell them not to hire him because he was a horrible shithead. Do you think I'm a bad person for doing that? Why? I had first hand experience the guy did lovely things, and so I told my friends in the industry. I don't get why this is bad.

Talmonis posted:

Sweet Christ yes it's a bad thing. Whistleblowers, labor organizers and "Troublemakers" (Read: People who know their rights and fight wage theft and other abuse) are black listed all the time like this. So what if that guy was lovely, even he's got to eat. You're commiting honest to god economic violence there, by trying to ensure that he can't find work in his field. Really man, I'm pretty surprised that you would engage in that.

Nevvy Z posted:

When people defend indefensible positions for really pedantic reasons that's all I hear.

The Droid posted:

I'm not blaming you specifically, but this sort of thing is also something that's been happening a lot that people have a problem with. I could understand if its a 30 minute rant by a nutso like Sargon of Akkad or whatever but you also get things like people commenting on the content of the zoepost without so much a skimming it and relying on hearsay etc.

Slanderer posted:

It's a 20 minute video.. At least give a summary (or list some interesting points) if you want people to watch it.