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wrt the expanding acronyms, I feel it's doubly a relic now that we've got "queer" back. You might be homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, demisexual, pansexual, whatever the hell orientation is going to come out in a week, but it's all queer. All expanding the acronym is going to do is make eyes roll and encourage division.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:11
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:wrt the expanding acronyms, I feel it's doubly a relic now that we've got "queer" back. You might be homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, demisexual, pansexual, whatever the hell orientation is going to come out in a week, but it's all queer. All expanding the acronym is going to do is make eyes roll and encourage division. yeah the recentering of the word to being a positive connotation is like what the black community did with the word "black" to the point where every time i hear the words "African-American" i think the person is really, really loving old the whole "lgbt" acronym's even worse than that because of both its legacy and the fact that it's become even more unwieldy than the mouthful that is "African-American", the cause would benefit from just labelling everyone within it "queer"
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Jul 1, 2015 07:18
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:wrt the expanding acronyms, I feel it's doubly a relic now that we've got "queer" back. You might be homosexual, bisexual, transsexual, demisexual, pansexual, whatever the hell orientation is going to come out in a week, but it's all queer. All expanding the acronym is going to do is make eyes roll and encourage division. I'm not convinced "queer" is entirely reclaimed, or at least the extent to which it has been reclaimed is very regionalized.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:22
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Pick posted:I'm not convinced "queer" is entirely reclaimed, or at least the extent to which it has been reclaimed is very regionalized. This is a fair point, but considering the success thus far there's no reason to stop. Much easier to use, much more unifying.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:24
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queer is the common term used in academia or on the lecture circuit (queer advocate, Queer Studies, Queer Voice, Queer Expert), and as a pejorative the term has shifted to the much harsher "human being" and even the term "gay" (the gays, etc) queer is just an old insult, it's been p successfully phased out as an diminutive term and even if it didn't the benefits of using it as a generalized term over an acronym that already includes the term 'queer' as part of it are much higher
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Jul 1, 2015 07:30
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:This is a fair point, but considering the success thus far there's no reason to stop. Much easier to use, much more unifying. The success is biased towards academic circles and younger generations (who tend to be more visible online), I haven't observed the same popularity among classes and communities that "LGBT" (etc.) has a history of overlooking.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:38
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Toxxupation posted:queer is the common term used in academia or on the lecture circuit (queer advocate, Queer Studies, Queer Voice, Queer Expert), and as a pejorative the term has shifted to the much harsher "human being" and even the term "gay" (the gays, etc) Yeah around the time people started tacking "queer" on at the end of the acronym, that was the last nail in the coffin. Might as well end it with "et cetra." Ultimately, we don't have to use queer, but we've got to come up with something. People like to joke about how everyone wants to be a special snowflake and poo poo, but as society becomes more open about things like sexuality and gender we're going to get a lot of new groups. We've still got enough problems between homosexuals and transexuals without not even letting new people in the clubhouse, or trying to pigeonhole them into a definition they don't like.
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Jul 1, 2015 07:42
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I think "fluid" is a decent alternative, especially since it's commonly believed that sexuality and gender are both fluid and that nobody is 100% cisgendered or 100% straight
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Jul 1, 2015 07:47
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Toxxupation posted:I think "fluid" is a decent alternative, especially since it's commonly believed that sexuality and gender are both fluid and that nobody is 100% cisgendered or 100% straight
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Jul 1, 2015 09:10
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DivisionPost posted:Cut from last night? He always has more material than time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_gRZcI1lto
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Jul 1, 2015 11:11
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Toxxupation posted:anyways, next time you're enjoying a bowl of frosted flakes or shredded wheat be aware that you're supporting a company founded by a guy who pushed male circumcision because he hated sex so much It's kind of a worthless thing to "be aware" of unless you seriously think Kellogg's currently has battling recreational sex as a core value of the company or are otherwise just invested in spiting a man who's been dead for over 70 years.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:34
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:It's kind of a worthless thing to "be aware" of unless you seriously think Kellogg's currently has battling recreational sex as a core value of the company or are otherwise just invested in spiting a man who's been dead for over 70 years. I guess if there actually was still anyone not aware of that at this point they missed out on a pretty funny movie 20 years ago so go see The Road to Wellville.
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Jul 1, 2015 15:37
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Yeah around the time people started tacking "queer" on at the end of the acronym, that was the last nail in the coffin. Might as well end it with "et cetra." I think MOGAI or MOGII are the 'new' blanket acronyms people occasionally try to push. "Marginalized orientations, gender identities, and intersex".
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Jul 1, 2015 15:47
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IRQ posted:I guess if there actually was still anyone not aware of that at this point they missed out on a pretty funny movie 20 years ago so go see The Road to Wellville. Is that the one with Matthew Broderick? That was solid.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:11
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xeria posted:I think MOGAI or MOGII are the 'new' blanket acronyms people occasionally try to push. "Marginalized orientations, gender identities, and intersex". GSM (Gender Sexual Minorities) is the one I'm most fond of, since it's the shortest.
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Jul 1, 2015 16:48
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IRQ posted:I guess if there actually was still anyone not aware of that at this point they missed out on a pretty funny movie 20 years ago so go see The Road to Wellville. Talk about your underrated movies! Hell, even if you don't appreciate the humor, this actually makes for a good historical film that shines a light on a time when beliefs were widely held that look so preposterously insane to our eyes that I bet many people watching it simply think, "there is no way this is even close to being how things were back then." But it was. Good flavor? Sex of any kind? Not enough yogurt in your rectum? Watch out, all of that will kill you! Lady problems? Hysteria got you all in a frazzle? Head on down to your local doctor's office! He'll tickle your cunny bone, and you'll be right as rain! And laughter really does heal. Literally. The truly crazy thing about all those beliefs, the Kellogg brothers (and yes, we're talking about those Kelloggs), the Graham followers, and all that? That was not really all that long ago, and it was during the age of print, so you can literally look it up and see for yourself.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:03
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njsykora posted:GSM (Gender Sexual Minorities) is the one I'm most fond of, since it's the shortest. I like that, especially for academic and institutional use since it captures the populations that actually need protection without forcing anyone to define themselves in minute detail. Anyway, the problem with "queer" as a category is that there are too many straight people in it.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:16
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Pinky Artichoke posted:I like that, especially for academic and institutional use since it captures the populations that actually need protection without forcing anyone to define themselves in minute detail. That and its also a word that has potential, original context readings and usage too (ie, still used to simply mean 'strange'). Using something abbreviated at least allows one to be specific, whilst something like GSM is also broad enough to cover a wide and fairly loose collection of differing definitions.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:31
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xeria posted:I think MOGAI or MOGII are the 'new' blanket acronyms people occasionally try to push. "Marginalized orientations, gender identities, and intersex". I've always preferred this and GSM, though of the two I like GSM,based strongly on the fact that MOGAI looks like mogwai.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:36
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Pinky Artichoke posted:I like that, especially for academic and institutional use since it captures the populations that actually need protection without forcing anyone to define themselves in minute detail. Queerness is antithesis to straightness as a concept. You can have a queer opposite sex relationship, the whole point of queerness is being a radical critique and deconstruction of heteronormativity, compulsive heterosexuality, and the notion of a stable identity/orientation. Desire is fluid and should depend more on the individual in question than on concepts of identity and larger social structures which marginalize and oppress anyone who deviates from the norm.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:50
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Pinky Artichoke posted:I like that, especially for academic and institutional use since it captures the populations that actually need protection without forcing anyone to define themselves in minute detail. I'm sort of sick of "minorities" as a term. It gets used even in areas where it shouldn't be applicable and sometimes I don't want to instantly think of myself as disenfranchised. Completely personal issue though.
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Jul 1, 2015 17:55
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Pick posted:I've always preferred this and GSM, though of the two I like GSM,based strongly on the fact that MOGAI looks like mogwai. Not sure GSM or MOGAI work as well as queer, because neither work conversationally. They might as well be computer algorithms. Almost 100% of anyone knows the word "queer", and what context it provides (good and bad). Academically, sure, go nuts with acronyms. Historically, however, it's the most simple words that contain profound context that endure. Someone else mentioned "black", and they were spot on. One can say "I am black" or "I am queer", but you can't say "I am GSM"...you can be a part of the GSM (or LGBT) communities, sure, but that isn't who you are, and sometimes explaining who you are in more than three words doesn't always work.
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Jul 1, 2015 18:06
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Pinky Artichoke posted:
yeah this whole exclusionary attitude is exactly how the LGBTIQA acronym fiasco got started, so
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Jul 1, 2015 19:38
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Philip Rivers posted:Queerness is antithesis to straightness as a concept. You can have a queer opposite sex relationship, the whole point of queerness is being a radical critique and deconstruction of heteronormativity, compulsive heterosexuality, and the notion of a stable identity/orientation. Desire is fluid and should depend more on the individual in question than on concepts of identity and larger social structures which marginalize and oppress anyone who deviates from the norm. Hey, I could run my marriage such that my husband is required to call me "sir" and clean my boots with his tongue (...I mean, not my existing husband. Pretty sure he wouldn't be into it). But I'd still be subject to practically all the conveniences and social privileges of a straight lady. Further, in pushing my particular concerns in queer spaces, I could easily be complicit in silencing people whose concerns are considerably more dire than mine. Toxxupation posted:yeah this whole exclusionary attitude is exactly how the LGBTIQA acronym fiasco got started, so I too have had my "sorry I brought my vagina with me to support your cause, rear end in a top hat" moments in LGBT spaces and frankly I don't think expanding the definition of one of the words to include me is the remedy.
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Jul 1, 2015 23:02
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tarlibone posted:Talk about your underrated movies! Hell, even if you don't appreciate the humor, this actually makes for a good historical film that shines a light on a time when beliefs were widely held that look so preposterously insane to our eyes that I bet many people watching it simply think, "there is no way this is even close to being how things were back then." You say that as if there aren't just as many batshit insane beliefs that are fairly widely held about health (and many other topics) today. Homeopathy is magic water vibrations that will cure whatever you can come up with and is a multi-billion dollar industry.
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Jul 2, 2015 04:37
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njsykora posted:The line I always use for this is one I saw used a few years ago. Rapists generally aren't too concerned about whether they're allowed to be somewhere. Yeah, that sounds like one of those things that only works if you don't think about it at all. As if there was anything to stop rapists from going into the ladies' bathroom before if they were that motivated, do they think these laws would legalize rape or something?
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Jul 2, 2015 05:32
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Toxxupation posted:yeah this whole exclusionary attitude is exactly how the LGBTIQA acronym fiasco got started, so Why can't we have separate movements that support each other but are not integrated to prevent dilution of particular problems? 
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Jul 2, 2015 07:40
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Rarity posted:Why can't we have separate movements that support each other but are not integrated to prevent dilution of particular problems? This is AMERICA. It's either one or the other. There are only two sides to all subjects ever.
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Jul 2, 2015 11:53
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Pinky Artichoke posted:My introduction to the anti-circumcision movement was a guy who used to come into the library where I worked 20 years ago and write long emotional newsletters about his wounded penis, so I've always assumed that most of them were from the small minority of circumcised men who have some sort of penis problems, legitimately related or otherwise. My introduction was that one episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit and it convinced me to never care about or listen to anything anyone had to say on the subject.
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Jul 2, 2015 13:45
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Pinky Artichoke posted:Hey, I could run my marriage such that my husband is required to call me "sir" and clean my boots with his tongue (...I mean, not my existing husband. Pretty sure he wouldn't be into it). But I'd still be subject to practically all the conveniences and social privileges of a straight lady. Further, in pushing my particular concerns in queer spaces, I could easily be complicit in silencing people whose concerns are considerably more dire than mine. Kink and queer aren't the same thing...
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Jul 2, 2015 15:57
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Gay straight lesbian queer trans whatever I don't give a gently caress. But someone really needs to sit down and explain to me why I can't kink shame. That poo poo is loving stupid.
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Jul 2, 2015 16:22
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Philip Rivers posted:Queerness is antithesis to straightness as a concept. You can have a queer opposite sex relationship, the whole point of queerness is being a radical critique and deconstruction of heteronormativity, compulsive heterosexuality, and the notion of a stable identity/orientation. Desire is fluid and should depend more on the individual in question than on concepts of identity and larger social structures which marginalize and oppress anyone who deviates from the norm. So, basically, "queer" just means you're not one of the squares, right? It increasingly seems like queer has no actual, useful real-life meaning, but instead is just an identifier to claim that you're in with the cool kids. I mean, under that definition a gay man who is 100% unambiguously homosexual and just wants to have monogamous vanilla sex with his partner is apparently less queer than a heterosexual man who has never touched another man but owns a sex swing.
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Jul 3, 2015 15:59
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it's our fault. we called the gays "queer" too long and conditioned them to do this. we have no one to blame but ourselves for this confusion.
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Jul 3, 2015 16:04
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Am I the only one who thought the Q was for "questioning"?
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Jul 3, 2015 16:31
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swickles posted:Am I the only one who thought the Q was for "questioning"? Probably. But, I'll tell you this: the first time I saw the expanded LGBT initialism with Q in it, I racked my brain for quite a while before looking it up. Part of my brain was saying, "it's Queer! Obviously!" and the other part was saying, "No, that's too easy, and isn't that a slur now anyway?" and then yet another part was saying "Hey, didn't that first part say that it was queer? Tarlibone's brain is queer! Tarlibone's brain is queer! You know what that means...," and then the first part said, "OK, see, that sounds like a slur; 'queer' is OK now if they use it, like the n-word," and the second part was like, "I don't know, 'queer' could still be a slur," and the third part, sounding genuinely confused and said, "wait... so queers can use the n-word now? Just the black ones, or...," and a fourth part chimed in with, "no, nobody's saying that, nobody gets to use the n -word except for... uhm... you know, them," and then a female voice--a shrill one--started shouting, "ARE YOU SAYING THAT QUEERS ARE A BUNCH OF N-WORDS??" and #4 immediately stammered, "No, I'm talking about--" and #'s 1, 2, and 3 stopped him by murmuring, "don't even think it," and then the woman's voice said, "wait... isn't this all just thoughts anyway? This is all in his head, right?" By the looks of everyone else in the room, I can tell you that at least some of it wasn't.
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Jul 3, 2015 16:57
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Comrade Fakename posted:So, basically, "queer" just means you're not one of the squares, right? It increasingly seems like queer has no actual, useful real-life meaning, but instead is just an identifier to claim that you're in with the cool kids. It's kind of like the word transgender. "Queer" represents both an umbrella term (like LGBT) and a specific identity. And again, kink isn't the same thing as queer. That's not a good argument.
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Jul 3, 2015 18:02
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Comrade Fakename posted:So, basically, "queer" just means you're not one of the squares, right? It increasingly seems like queer has no actual, useful real-life meaning, but instead is just an identifier to claim that you're in with the cool kids.  Queer means not heterosexual. That's it. Period.
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Jul 3, 2015 18:08
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Veskit posted:Gay straight lesbian queer trans whatever I don't give a gently caress. Like imagine if someone went around telling people they were gross deviants for liking pizza or something. It's not anywhere close to making someone feel like poo poo for their gender identity, but it's still rude. Food is probably a good example actually 'cause there are always people who get really judgmental about it, and they generally come off like dicks if they're being super serious about it, but if it's all a big joke people tend not to mind. My understanding is that the only places that are serious about not kink shaming are communities that are trying to be conducive to discussions about kink without turning into cliquish sniping and defensive shitfests. If someone on SA, for instance, says "don't kink shame!" they're probably being silly, rather than calling you out for being seriously hurtful or anything. tl;dr: Not kink shaming is on an entirely different level and honestly doesn't belong in a discussion about orientation and gender identity. Totally different thing. (Unless I'm badly mistaken and there are people who take it far more seriously than I was aware.)
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Jul 3, 2015 18:34
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Eiba posted:tl;dr: Not kink shaming is on an entirely different level and honestly doesn't belong in a discussion about orientation and gender identity. Totally different thing. Given that the last three pages of this thread were devoted to figuring out what makes Q people horny, I'd say they're almost exactly the same.
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Jul 3, 2015 19:43
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"Don't kinkshame!" is another facet of the "don't be a jerk" rulebook.
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Jul 3, 2015 19:45
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