Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

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ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

The most maddening thing is how fans always claim it's both in order to defend 5e.

Wizards are overpowered in 5e? Maybe you should stick to the recommended layout of having 5-8 combats each day, scrub :smug:

I'm sorry, 4e was just too combat focused - which made it not D&D. :smug:

# ? Jul 5, 2015 22:06

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 14:51

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

ProfessorCirno posted:

The most maddening thing is how fans always claim it's both in order to defend 5e.

Wizards are overpowered in 5e? Maybe you should stick to the recommended layout of having 5-8 combats each day, scrub
I'm sorry, 4e was just too combat focused - which made it not D&D.

No, no, 4e is wrong, because your fighter has multiple options for what to do each turn instead of just melee attacking. This impinges on a fighter's freedom to do anything he can think of, so long as it's melee attacking.

# ? Jul 5, 2015 22:28

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Otisburg posted:

For all it's many, many flaws, the new Warhammer Fantasy edition/overhaul/thing, added a third undead faction: Skeletons. This is not a joke or a SA meme thing. It's just "Skeletons."

I'm kinda torn on WFRP. I mean, I like it for what it is, but if you're passing familiar with Warhammer Fantasy and the kind of game it is (grimdark epic fantasy battles with people covered in skulls and spikes) then the reality of WFRP (grimdark picaresque fantasy adventure with people covered in filthy rags and skin disease) is kind of a brick to the face.

As somebody who got into WFRP that way, there's no shortage of established fans who will tell you what a dumb stupid babby you are for expecting WFRP to have anything to do with WF besides all the laughably-named monsters that want to skin you alive and use your hide as a condom. WFRP3 sounds like it's trying to be closer to the RPG that Warhammer advertises, which is good. But I did actually get to like the vibe of WFRP2e that they had going, although I'm not in love with the rules.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jul 6, 2015

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:09

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

The best session of D&D I have ever played had 0 combat. We cast spells, we snck around, set up traps, all sorts of things.

I personally try to include combat once per session but it doesn't always work out that way.

Yeah there are systems where combat isn't as played up as D&D but that doesn't mean that D&D has to require combat ever.

If my DM made it to where I had to fight every fight and there was not way around it I would probably find a new DM. Thats not the game I'm playing.

D&D is a great system because it can be what you need it to be (mostly in the fantasy genre). I have seen people play it as a diplomatic game of trade and high society and I have seen it as a constant dungeon crawl.

quote:

D&D is a combat game but it's not about combat between PCs and monsters. It's a combat game between the players and DM, but it's based on mutual respect.

The combat is kind of like all those erotic wrestling movies. Everyone's just doing it for fun.

quote:

Here I thought it was a "Roleplaying Game" first and foremost.

Someone should tell them to update the cover to use the phrase "combat game".

I thought D&D was a mediocre combat simulator- I've heard the grognards arguing about how stupid hitpoints were and how AC is stupid in its current implementation and should be damage reduction, blah blah blah. I guess someone should give them the good news.

I mean, I know it was a descendant of chainmail and other battle simulation games, but I thought the addition of roleplaying and story elements was what separated it from its roots; sorta like an eagle is a descendant of a lizard, so obviously flying isn't the most important aspect- it's key feature is obviously that it's a lizard.

quote:

The class is the most defining thing in your style of combat. So yes, most abilities will focus on combat. But how many background-abilities are combat focussed? And most abilities are filled with flavour and lore.
And equipment has the AC, damage, and properties. These are combat-based. But we also have the cost, the weight and even the name! Those things are non-combat.

quote:

That's a really weird argument, let's turn it around: "If combat is the main focus of the game, why are there zero backgrounds focussed on combat?"

An example would be the sailor I am writing now, which I can play using a Fighter or a Rogue. The difference between those two is the way they act in combat, which is why I said that the class defines your style of combat. But if I want to turn him into a pirate, a rough sailor or a sailing merchant.. That's when I look at the background.

quote:
Not the point. Weapons and armor are inherently combat-related. Saying "They also have a price and weight!" is utterly irrelevant.
The cost and the weight of the weapon have no relevance in combat, it's purely a non-combat thing. And even non-combat encounters care about the weapons you carry or the armour you are wearing: Which again doesn't make it exclusive to combat.

quote:
How many of them don't apply to combat? Actor, Dungeon Delver, Keen Mind, Linguist, Magic Initiate (arguably), Observant, Ritual Caster, Skilled.
42 - 22 = 20; That should give you an answer.

Stuff like Heavy Armour isn't combat-focussed; it's roleplay. It's about the kind of armour you are wearing. It is the difference between walking around in cloths or in plate.

quote:

quote:
Combat is infused in everything in the book. Nearly all class abilities are combat-related, most of the feats are combat-focused, and most of the equipment is related to combat.
I just made that point to someone about 4E, which is the worst offender in this respect. Older editions have more fluff-based abilities, skills, items, and priorities in general.

quote:

quote:
Other games work better for different playstyles. Just because D&D has a small handful of skills doesn't mean it's a good choice for combat-light games.
What makes D&D a good choice for combat-light games is not its mechanics, but the amount of effort people have devoted to D&D. We're talking 30+ years of campaign settings, splatbooks, player guides, DM advice columns, homebrew resources, community building, etc. A lot of this content uses old rules, but since the story portions of D&D aren't really bound by the rules, this stuff is merely outdated instead of obsolete.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:29

senrath: Nov 4, 2009; Look Professor, a destruct switch!

Ah yes, the old "It's not broken if you can fix it" argument.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:41

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

Halloween Jack posted:

I'm kinda torn on WFRP. I mean, I like it for what it is, but if you're passing familiar with Warhammer Fantasy and the kind of game it is (grimdark epic fantasy battles with people covered in skulls and spikes) then the reality of WFRP (grimdark picaresque fantasy adventure with people covered in filthy rags and skin disease).

As somebody who got into WFRP that way, there's no shortage of established fans who will tell you what a dumb stupid babby you are for expecting WFRP to have anything to do with WF besides all the laughably-named monsters that want to skin you alive and use your pelt as a condom. WFRP3 sounds like it's trying to be closer to the RPG that Warhammer advertises, which is good. But I did actually get to like the vibe of WFRP2e that they had going, although I'm not in love with the rules.

Yeah, the 40krpgs quickly moved to letting you actually play with/be the big distinctive parts of the setting. Even Dark Heresy 2 mostly dropped the "space peasant" thing.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:42

senrath: Nov 4, 2009; Look Professor, a destruct switch!

Ronwayne posted:

Yeah, the 40krpgs quickly moved to letting you actually play with/be the big distinctive parts of the setting. Even Dark Heresy 2 mostly dropped the "space peasant" thing.

Even the original Dark Heresy allowed you to (eventually) get past the stage of "you're a nobody and will amount to nothing" to "you are a mover and a shaker".

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:46

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

WFRP did too if you managed to make it to your 3rd-4th career (snerk)

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:47

senrath: Nov 4, 2009; Look Professor, a destruct switch!

I have no experience with WFRP (only the 40K games) so I can't comment on that side of things.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:48

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

On the one hand I've always found the attitude of a lot of groggy WFRP fans to be insufferably smug when it comes to explaining why the RPG based on a wargame of griffon riders and questing grail knights and steam tanks and heroes with enormous hats has you playing diseased shitfarmers equipped with a stick, and far too many WFRP fans I've known have gotten so wrapped up in the whole "diseased shitfarmer" thing to the point where it becomes unintentional parody, almost like the reverse of Exalted where the fandom got caught up in the whole "epic" thing until to hear them talking about it Exalted is all about obliterating entire planets with your continent-sized buster sword while heavy metal guitars play nonstop. Like, it's entirely possible and by-the-book to play a WFRP campaign where not everyone is a filthy crapsack peasant grubbing for coppers and dying to rats in a basement.

On the other hand, I think if WFRP had been more in the standard "D&D-style adventurers" mold that it would have been far more forgettable that it wound up being. I mean, it's not like it's a wildly original setting at the best of times...you've got your stern, grudge-bearing dwarves, your haughty and arrogant elves in multiple flavors including Extra S&M, you've got your various human nations, you've got fat, food-loving halflings, there are orcs and goblins and ogres and undead and it's all pretty much what you'd expect. Ratcatchers and their small but vicious dogs are at the very least a distinct sort of fantasy. I also don't recall the games themselves ever editorializing that much about how their particular type of fantasy game is the way things should be.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 02:53

Slimnoid: Sep 6, 2012; Does that mean I don't get the job?

Kai Tave posted:

Exalted is all about obliterating entire planets with your continent-sized buster sword while heavy metal guitars play nonstop.

Yeah I wish Exalted was like that and not a weirdly complicated set of combat rules stapled to a system that can't bear the weight of it.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 03:05

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Ronwayne posted:

Yeah, the 40krpgs quickly moved to letting you actually play with/be the big distinctive parts of the setting. Even Dark Heresy 2 mostly dropped the "space peasant" thing.

I have a problem with the 40k RPGs, and it's that they're way too complicated. The detailed percentile system works pretty good for WFRP because there's only so many things to detail. The 40k setting, on the other hand, is chock full of stuff like "This pistol was forged in the Dark Age of Technology by engineers who were specially bred for thousands of years and specially tortured their entire lives so they couldn't think of anything besides making guns with skulls on them. The gun is made from steel taken from a Space Hulk that got sucked into the Eye of Terror, and the ammunition is armor-piercing mass-reactive gyrojet shells filled with acid and bees."

If every single thing in the setting is described in several layers of over-the-topedness, and characters range from shitfarmer to demigod, you may as well just measure things on a simple scale where Lasgun = 1 and the Emperor's own bolter = 10. The answer to this setting is not a system that meticulously measures the attributes of every type of supergun. Basically with the 40k games I'm already exhausted by the time I've finished generating a character.

Kai Tave posted:

On the one hand I've always found the attitude of a lot of groggy WFRP fans to be insufferably smug when it comes to explaining why the RPG based on a wargame of griffon riders and questing grail knights and steam tanks and heroes with enormous hats has you playing diseased shitfarmers equipped with a stick, and far too many WFRP fans I've known have gotten so wrapped up in the whole "diseased shitfarmer" thing to the point where it becomes unintentional parody, almost like the reverse of Exalted where the fandom got caught up in the whole "epic" thing until to hear them talking about it Exalted is all about obliterating entire planets with your continent-sized buster sword while heavy metal guitars play nonstop. Like, it's entirely possible and by-the-book to play a WFRP campaign where not everyone is a filthy crapsack peasant grubbing for coppers and dying to rats in a basement.

On the other hand, I think if WFRP had been more in the standard "D&D-style adventurers" mold that it would have been far more forgettable that it wound up being. I mean, it's not like it's a wildly original setting at the best of times...you've got your stern, grudge-bearing dwarves, your haughty and arrogant elves in multiple flavors including Extra S&M, you've got your various human nations, you've got fat, food-loving halflings, there are orcs and goblins and ogres and undead and it's all pretty much what you'd expect. Ratcatchers and their small but vicious dogs are at the very least a distinct sort of fantasy. I also don't recall the games themselves ever editorializing that much about how their particular type of fantasy game is the way things should be.

Oh yeah man, when I'm playing WFRP I know the GM is full of poo poo if I roll up a character and don't immediately die of creeping dick rot.

Are there any other games that do a good job of giving you a background rooted in early modern Europe, but with monsters? HarnMaster, perhaps?

I've heard it said that WFRP's Careers do a great job of telling you where your PC comes from, and where they can end up. In the middle, though, they're not so great to deal with.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Jul 6, 2015

# ? Jul 6, 2015 03:06

Cumslut1895: Feb 18, 2015; by FactsAreUseless

Gizmoduck_5000 posted:

That kind of stuff isn't really feminism though. It's hate speech. Feminism is about equality, not segregation.

gee, thats convenient

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11633305/University-union-officer-who-wrote-kill-all-white-men-tweet-will-remain-in-post.html

# ? Jul 6, 2015 03:08

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Kai Tave posted:

On the one hand I've always found the attitude of a lot of groggy WFRP fans to be insufferably smug when it comes to explaining why the RPG based on a wargame of griffon riders and questing grail knights and steam tanks and heroes with enormous hats has you playing diseased shitfarmers equipped with a stick, and far too many WFRP fans I've known have gotten so wrapped up in the whole "diseased shitfarmer" thing to the point where it becomes unintentional parody.

There's also their cousins, the Paranoia fans who insist that every scenario should involve multiple TPKs before the GM manages to finish reading the mission briefing (or else you're Doing It Wrong) and the Call of Cthulhu fans who fetishize hopeless no-win affairs where everyone loses their minds before being eaten and ugh I don't know why they even statted up the major gods of the setting the players have no chance against them (despite the titular story being one where the protagonist actually kills Cthulhu by driving a speedboat through him) and anyone who doesn't play in that style is a goddamned munchkin who doesn't understand the first thing about Lovecraft.

There is also a pretty major strain of OSR-ish grog who treats playing shitfarmers scrapping for coppers and getting killed by housecats is the highest possible form of D&Ding and clearly the way Gary intended it to be played.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 03:17

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

Suffering for meager scraps of happiness is very american/puritan.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 03:41

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

senrath posted:

Even the original Dark Heresy allowed you to (eventually) get past the stage of "you're a nobody and will amount to nothing" to "you are a mover and a shaker".

I liked original DH/WHRP because you were the poo poo farmer that didn't do much. It made for great grinder one-off campaigns that lasted maybe 5-6 sessions each until we all died. I love games like 4e but I don't think every game need you to be the hero.

Well, should've refreshed. I'm the grog that loves my hopeless do-nothing games. I save the sweet hero stuff for 4e or exalted. It probably counts as misery tourism or whatever it's called.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:03

SHY NUDIST GRRL: Feb 15, 2011; Communism will help more white people than anyone else. Any equal measures unfairly provide less to minority populations just because there's less of them. Democracy is truly the tyranny of the mob.

I find it really fun to have the party be set up to struggle against a very hostile world. As long as it's not completely stacked against the PCs. Enough rope to hang but catch them on the way down. It's misplaced in that typically bombastic setting though.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:10

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Chill la Chill posted:

I liked original DH/WHRP because you were the poo poo farmer that didn't do much. It made for great grinder one-off campaigns that lasted maybe 5-6 sessions each until we all died. I love games like 4e but I don't think every game need you to be the hero.

Well, should've refreshed. I'm the grog that loves my hopeless do-nothing games. I save the sweet hero stuff for 4e or exalted. It probably counts as misery tourism or whatever it's called.

It's only "misery tourism" if you play real people in real history who actually suffered (because only SJWs would do such a thing).

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:13

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

FMguru posted:

There's also their cousins, the Paranoia fans who insist that every scenario should involve multiple TPKs before the GM manages to finish reading the mission briefing (or else you're Doing It Wrong) and the Call of Cthulhu fans who fetishize hopeless no-win affairs where everyone loses their minds before being eaten and ugh I don't know why they even statted up the major gods of the setting the players have no chance against them (despite the titular story being one where the protagonist actually kills Cthulhu by driving a speedboat through him) and anyone who doesn't play in that style is a goddamned munchkin who doesn't understand the first thing about Lovecraft.

To be fair, he didn't kill Cthulhu so much as temporarily stun him. He was regelatinizing as he left.

I haven't really gotten that vibe in practice with CoC games, though convention games have of course a greater degree of narrative pre-determinations than a campaign might. I imagine the stats are partly legacy from when everything had to have a stat block, and that SOME of them aren't actually totally immortal - if you shot Father Dagon with a nuclear torpedo he would presumably die. Of course if you have a nuclear torpedo who is the real monster, eh??

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:13

senrath: Nov 4, 2009; Look Professor, a destruct switch!

Nessus posted:

Of course if you have a nuclear torpedo who is the real monster, eh??

Still Dagon.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:15

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Slimnoid posted:

Yeah I wish Exalted was like that and not a weirdly complicated set of combat rules stapled to a system that can't bear the weight of it.

Just convert all castes to D&D4 classes, with charms becoming powers. Martial Arts are Feats, Sorcery Spells are Rituals.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:17

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

TheTatteredKing posted:

I find it really fun to have the party be set up to struggle against a very hostile world. As long as it's not completely stacked against the PCs. Enough rope to hang but catch them on the way down. It's misplaced in that typically bombastic setting though.

Yeah it's just that it's p fun to get up to shenanigans and trying to live through getting an infection from a bad cut or having to get your leg cut off and replaced by a sweet robo leg but you need to raise the money, etc etc. until we end up in an alley and get vaporized with nobody caring.

Halloween Jack posted:

It's only "misery tourism" if you play real people in real history who actually suffered (because only SJWs would do such a thing).

Oh ok

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:17

FMguru: Sep 10, 2003; peed on;
sexually

Nessus posted:

To be fair, he didn't kill Cthulhu so much as temporarily stun him. He was regelatinizing as he left.

I haven't really gotten that vibe in practice with CoC games, though convention games have of course a greater degree of narrative pre-determinations than a campaign might. I imagine the stats are partly legacy from when everything had to have a stat block, and that SOME of them aren't actually totally immortal - if you shot Father Dagon with a nuclear torpedo he would presumably die. Of course if you have a nuclear torpedo who is the real monster, eh??

It's only a vocal subset of CoC fans, and that vibe rarely shows up in printed scenarios, but an awful lot of people are under the impression that CoC is that game where everyone goes insane and dies and loses all the time.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:20

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

FMguru posted:

It's only a vocal subset of CoC fans, and that vibe rarely shows up in printed scenarios, but an awful lot of people are under the impression that CoC is that game where everyone goes insane and dies and loses all the time.

No, that's Exalted.

Oh, you were talking about PCs, not the players.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 04:46

xiw: Sep 25, 2011; i wake up at night
night action madness nightmares
maybe i am scum
Cpig Haiku contest 2020 winner

MonsieurChoc posted:

Just convert all castes to D&D4 classes, with charms becoming powers. Martial Arts are Feats, Sorcery Spells are Rituals.

Reskinning Exalted to 4e is really loving easy, btw - I've run this a few times and it works great.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 05:12

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

But but, all the FLUFF-AS-RULES which must be maintained at all costs :byodood:

# ? Jul 6, 2015 05:13

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Chill la Chill posted:

I liked original DH/WHRP because you were the poo poo farmer that didn't do much. It made for great grinder one-off campaigns that lasted maybe 5-6 sessions each until we all died. I love games like 4e but I don't think every game need you to be the hero.

Well, should've refreshed. I'm the grog that loves my hopeless do-nothing games. I save the sweet hero stuff for 4e or exalted. It probably counts as misery tourism or whatever it's called.

I don't think anyone's a grog for liking WFRP. Hell, I like WFRP in a "Blackadder does Tolkien by way of Bavaria" sort of way. To my mind, WFRP grogs come in two distinct flavors:

1). The people who get real huffy and roll their eyes when someone asks "hey, if Warhammer Fantasy the wargame is all about griffon riders and awesome knights and heroes and stuff, where are those guys and why is this game about ragpickers and camp followers?" You don't really get a lot of this sort anymore because anyone who's invested enough in tabletop RPGs to even know what WFRP is probably knows what WFRP is all about going into it.

2). The people who take everything to an extreme and pitch WFRP as the game where you roll 1d10 to determine which agonizing, poo poo-covered death you die the moment your character hits the table. Folks that have bought so much into the way fans of the game hype up WFRP as "grim and gritty and lethal!" to the extent that they push things way too hard in that direction and figure if they aren't constantly beating the characters with metaphorical and literal poo poo-covered sticks that it's not "proper" WFRP. Part of this is probably also due to the fact that a lot of published WFRP adventures were full of absolutely stupid calls for extremely difficult skill rolls in a system where lower level characters would have like a 30-40% spread in most trained skills, so calling for a -30% Find The Ambush check probably gave a lot of people the impression that WFRP was the game of inexorable and hopeless failure amidst the filth when it's actually got a lot more depth to it than that.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 05:14

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

xiw posted:

Reskinning Exalted to 4e is really loving easy, btw - I've run this a few times and it works great.

I'm interested, please tell me more.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 05:20

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Kai Tave posted:

2). The people who take everything to an extreme and pitch WFRP as the game where you roll 1d10 to determine which agonizing, poo poo-covered death you die the moment your character hits the table. Folks that have bought so much into the way fans of the game hype up WFRP as "grim and gritty and lethal!" to the extent that they push things way too hard in that direction and figure if they aren't constantly beating the characters with metaphorical and literal poo poo-covered sticks that it's not "proper" WFRP. Part of this is probably also due to the fact that a lot of published WFRP adventures were full of absolutely stupid calls for extremely difficult skill rolls in a system where lower level characters would have like a 30-40% spread in most trained skills, so calling for a -30% Find The Ambush check probably gave a lot of people the impression that WFRP was the game of inexorable and hopeless failure amidst the filth when it's actually got a lot more depth to it than that.

Played 2nd edition with an ex and she was so enamored with the "Consume Alcohol" skill she referred to any sort of IRL drinking as "using our consume alcohol skill." It was tiresome.

First sesh she described how she was wearing purple and I was like "No way you're in the Empire and there are strict sartorial laws." Maybe the grog was me in that case, but I was trying to create a mood and it's totally A Thing. :colbert:

That game also had a great set up for a friend's impromptu commentary on religious chauvanism.

Playing a priest of Ulric, some townsfolk came to him about missing children. "Where's your Sigmar now?!" he bellows. I explain the ones who came to him are actually his faithful flock, not Sigmarites. Without missing a beat: "Ulric has a plan."

Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Jul 6, 2015

# ? Jul 6, 2015 05:21

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

Kai Tave posted:

I don't think anyone's a grog for liking WFRP. Hell, I like WFRP in a "Blackadder does Tolkien by way of Bavaria" sort of way. To my mind, WFRP grogs come in two distinct flavors:

1). The people who get real huffy and roll their eyes when someone asks "hey, if Warhammer Fantasy the wargame is all about griffon riders and awesome knights and heroes and stuff, where are those guys and why is this game about ragpickers and camp followers?" You don't really get a lot of this sort anymore because anyone who's invested enough in tabletop RPGs to even know what WFRP is probably knows what WFRP is all about going into it.

2). The people who take everything to an extreme and pitch WFRP as the game where you roll 1d10 to determine which agonizing, poo poo-covered death you die the moment your character hits the table. Folks that have bought so much into the way fans of the game hype up WFRP as "grim and gritty and lethal!" to the extent that they push things way too hard in that direction and figure if they aren't constantly beating the characters with metaphorical and literal poo poo-covered sticks that it's not "proper" WFRP. Part of this is probably also due to the fact that a lot of published WFRP adventures were full of absolutely stupid calls for extremely difficult skill rolls in a system where lower level characters would have like a 30-40% spread in most trained skills, so calling for a -30% Find The Ambush check probably gave a lot of people the impression that WFRP was the game of inexorable and hopeless failure amidst the filth when it's actually got a lot more depth to it than that.

Part of the appeal to WFRP for me was that it had 'range'. It was really easy to start as 2nd or 3rd tier badasses if you wished, and with the GM I had, while we tended to start low tier he liked to increase EXP gain substantially early on so that we'd get a 'grounding' as rat catchers, new military vets just discharged, university students, etc who have a sort of 'life interrupted' call to adventure then quickly go on to being spies, professional mercs, master thieves, etc faster than the game expects.

You are ridiculously right about the published adventures, though. Like, holy poo poo they are garbage. They're not just full of -20 to continue plot rolls, but they have a lot of inexplicable assumptions. In one case, for instance, the PCs have been working for the city watch (if they've been following the adventure). The Watch captain is a good, honest guy you know well by this point, and even if your PCs aren't heroic types swayed by that, he pays well and he pays on time as promised, so it's a pretty good bet someone's going to like the guy and the Watch has basically had your back all adventure. Suddenly, a twist comes when you find out assholes are putting mutagens in wells throughout town, and a very shady rear end in a top hat priest tells you 'You've got to stop it BUT NO COPS AND DON'T TELL THE WATCH!' The Adventure provides no support for, you know, the players maybe going to the guys who have had their back and worked with them all adventure so far and going 'Hey guys, there's some bad poo poo going down, dunno why that priest doesn't want you to know but we need manpower.' That's also not getting into the expected 'tier 1 PCs fight 5 Knights in their 3rd career in full plate who are each individually stronger than the Demon who is boss of the adventure' encounter with no ideas on how to bypass it or make it easier. The published adventures for WFRP2e were awful and they're a big part of the impression that your options are 'Suck' or 'Die'.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 05:22

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

MonsieurChoc posted:

I'm interested, please tell me more.

1). Play 4E.

2). Give everything an appropriately flowery name and your chosen color of anime sparkles.

3). Stunts??????

# ? Jul 6, 2015 05:23

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

Kai Tave posted:

1). Play 4E.

2). Give everything an appropriately flowery name and your chosen color of anime sparkles.

3). Stunts??????

Obviously, but I wanted more details or something. I'm a naturally curious fellow.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 06:13

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

This has been a question that's been bugging me, why does it seem like there is an overwhelming negative outlook on 4e. It seems like people think it is too combat focused even though I think that has more to do with the DM/GM not the edition, but that is my opinion and if someone could answer my question that would be much appreciated!

quote:

Basically it's a failed abortion limping around, wearing the flayed skin of Dungeons & Dragons while vomiting blood and bile all over a miniatures grid.

quote:

Fourth Edition decided that game balance and good combat were worth more than verisimilitude and role-playing. Character options are severely limited.
Multiclassing? No. Monster characters? No. Creating spells? No.
It barely has any non-combat spells, the things that make D&D settings interesting. Some monsters are in the books without explanation of what they are or their ecology. Minions make no sense whatsoever.
I am of the opinion that 4th edition was terrible and unfit to for play. Yes, I have played it. Yes, I had an open mind. Yes, I hated it.

quote:

I also noticed that some of the monster manual entries were severely truncated and missing vital information like ecology or some things were changed entirely. I played once and stopped playing D & D for a long time thereafter.

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It is vastly more focused on combat, I don't think that part is even debatable. An encounter in 4e could easily last longer than two in 5e. It really just doesn't play or feel like D&D. It is a good game but 5e was a welcomed return.

I am a fan of 4e and have over 30 books for it. They tried to capture the WoW market and created a good game just not what I want from D&D.

quote:

Personally, I never quite had that big of a problem with 4E (albeit that's probably because it's the edition i started on), but 5E is just better for me. A few reasons why:

In 4E, a lot of the classes feel very similar to each other, and this isn't helped by the at will, encounter and daily power system, which makes pretty much every class more combat oriented, seeing as the majority of them are focused on combat. The major difference between classes was determined by their role, and it really made classes in the same role feel only different in flavour. For example, all defender classes had a mark ability which really did the same thing, with minor class differences.

As an extension, casting spells seemed to only be done through certain powers (very rarely), and mostly through rituals, which took way too much time and effort to set up. This kinda detracts sometimes if you want to play a mage character, as you are more limited in what you can do and where.

The static defenses don't really feel all that different to each other, just calculated slightly differently. It does make it feel more gamey than 5E (and presumably 3.5), and you kind of lose the randomness afforded by rolled saves.

The way 4E was set up, it was high advisable to use a gridmap rather than other approaches, like ToTM (Theatre of the Mind) or gridless map. This kind of made it feel more like a tactics wargame rather than DnD at times, but wasn't in and of itself a bad thing.

Kind of a result of 4E's more inherent focus on combat, but combat takes way too long, and is the primary reason why I switched. With the lowered scaling, and the higher damage output vs total health in 5E meant that encounters (at least most of them) tended to end fairly quickly, whereas in 4E, this was often not the case.

quote:

TL;DR most complaints come down to 'it doesn't look like D&D,' as it is, like fortebass said, "gamey" in its approach. This is not inherently bad, but D&D fans expected a system that tried more to be a set of rules which described a world than a video game on pen and paper that you could role-play through. 4e wouldn't have been so reviled if it was released as a stand alone system (and as I said somewhere in that other thread, something that embraced how "anime" it felt), but I find the real problem with it is just how ungodly slow the combat is, despite how cool it all seems in theory.

Like, this is the nth iteration of grogs.txt, and sometimes we end up talking about RPGPundit or the Disassociated Mechanics post or Mustard Dude and those things are a couple of years old, but those quotes are all from within the last 3 hours. TYOOL 2015.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 06:32

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

MonsieurChoc posted:

Obviously, but I wanted more details or something. I'm a naturally curious fellow.

I'm pretty sure that's literally it. There was a Cortex Hack for Exalted that looked pretty good, though at this point most people are just glomming onto the 3E leaks.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 06:34

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

The edition wars will literally never end until D&D is flushed, hth

# ? Jul 6, 2015 06:55

Lightning Lord: Feb 21, 2013; $200 a day, plus expenses

Kai Tave posted:

On the one hand I've always found the attitude of a lot of groggy WFRP fans to be insufferably smug when it comes to explaining why the RPG based on a wargame of griffon riders and questing grail knights and steam tanks and heroes with enormous hats has you playing diseased shitfarmers equipped with a stick, and far too many WFRP fans I've known have gotten so wrapped up in the whole "diseased shitfarmer" thing to the point where it becomes unintentional parody, almost like the reverse of Exalted where the fandom got caught up in the whole "epic" thing until to hear them talking about it Exalted is all about obliterating entire planets with your continent-sized buster sword while heavy metal guitars play nonstop. Like, it's entirely possible and by-the-book to play a WFRP campaign where not everyone is a filthy crapsack peasant grubbing for coppers and dying to rats in a basement.

I've always found it quite funny considering The Enemy Within, the most famous set of adventures for WFRP is pretty much not about being nosepicking peasants drowning in a river of poo poo.

gradenko_2000 posted:

Like, this is the nth iteration of grogs.txt, and sometimes we end up talking about RPGPundit or the Disassociated Mechanics post or Mustard Dude and those things are a couple of years old, but those quotes are all from within the last 3 hours. TYOOL 2015.

Reddit should be forbidden for the same reason that 4chan is.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 06:58

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Lightning Lord posted:

I've always found it quite funny considering The Enemy Within, the most famous set of adventures for WFRP is pretty much not about being nosepicking peasants drowning in a river of poo poo.

Well, it's funny. Some people carry the joke too far, but being a literal shitfarmer with a small angry dog is what makes it different from D&D.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 07:03

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

D&D Lair Assault: 4e Wallows In Its Own Filth

The description of the new WotC Organized Play program made me throw up in my mouth a little.

I keep hoping 4e might come back from the brink. Mike Mearls keeps posting �Ah yes, the good things we are starting to remember from older D&D editions� posts on his blog. Maybe D&D isn�t degenerating into a tactical minis game forever after all, I think.

And then they just up and announce it�s a tactical minis game. No really, go read the link. The new OP is �tailored to groups of players who enjoy solving tactical puzzles, optimizing characters, and using rules to their advantage.� You come and minmax character builds and run them through a tactical simulation. If you die, it�s back to the save point and try again. Again, really, �Adventuring groups will often attempt a challenge several times before solving it.� The �D&D Fortune Cards are a required and integral part� isn�t even in the top 10 disturbing things about this.

Frankly, Organized Play is behind a lot of the bad stuff that started to corrupt 3e. It breeds a certain mindset and playstyle with very tightly constrained encounter difficulties, point buy min maxing, etc. that ends up corrupting the expectations of players. Now they are, as the kids today say, �Sticking it in and breaking it off� as far as that�s concerned.

I wonder how the people that always object to saying that 4e is becoming exactly like a computer game can even begin to continue to say that with a straight face now.

I mean, I don�t mind wargaming. I remember a lively game of Stargrunt II I played at a Gen Con. But WotC needs to start a separate tactical game line and stop making everyone think that it is a roleplaying game. It just breeds more �It�s only about the kill� goons that inhabit local game tables, Internet forums, and eventually the ranks of adventure and supplement authors.

P.S. If this is your first visit here and you just don�t understand WHY� I�m not gonna bother to link you to the past posts that explain how 4e is different from roleplaying games, etc.; if you can�t type �4e� into the search box above if you really want to find out, then you fall below the minimum INT required to care about whether you understand what�s going on�

# ? Jul 6, 2015 09:34

xiw: Sep 25, 2011; i wake up at night
night action madness nightmares
maybe i am scum
Cpig Haiku contest 2020 winner

MonsieurChoc posted:

I'm interested, please tell me more.

Decide what you want to play in the Exalted setting. Based on how you want to fight, pick an appropriate 4e class/race. Rename your powers and their visuals to more flowery and visually appropriate effects, but just use them as written mechanically. Pick a starting level based on your 4e familiarity.

For noncombat stuff, assume that trained skills have the capability to do the kind of things that charms can do, and use your Exalted books to improvise.

The downside is you don't get to use the charms as written, but the tradeoff is that you get to have sweet kung-fu fights that are balanced and interesting and still play politics in the setting as much as you like. As a GM you just use the normal 4e encounter design rules and reskin.

Last time we had:

Human Psion -> Secrets caste Sidereal Charcoal March of Spiders stylist
Deva Cleric -> Moonshadow caste Abyssal ancestor cultist
Warden -> rogue Jade Alchemical
Avenger -> Night Caste Solar ex-Realm assassin
Druid -> Lunar glacier herder

as the secret council running half the Haslanti league.

# ? Jul 6, 2015 11:07

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# ? Jun 9, 2024 14:51

spectralent: Oct 1, 2014; Me and the boys poppin' down to the shops

gradenko_2000 posted:

This has been a question that's been bugging me, why does it seem like there is an overwhelming negative outlook on 4e. It seems like people think it is too combat focused even though I think that has more to do with the DM/GM not the edition, but that is my opinion and if someone could answer my question that would be much appreciated!

I'm going to guess partly deliberately stoked edition warring by Pathfinder and partly people with strong ironclad ideas of how RPGs are "meant" to work. I mean stuff changes all the time and there's always a "THING IS DIFFERENT CHANGE BACK THING" outcry for a while, but usually, and I'm going to say like a month or two, that's died down; the thing is here and not going away, people actually have to interact with it, eventually it just slips into the background as part of life. The difference with D&D was their biggest publishing partner got to go "You're right! Thing is different! Down with thing! Old thing best! Everyone, throw heavy objects at thing!" and make off like bandits during that. People didn't get the "The thing is just normal and what people do" phase, nobody was pushed towards giving it a try. People could stick with 3.5 and hurl abuse at 4e. If that wasn't a major part of it then I have no idea.

EDIT: And I mean I say this because criticism consistently has nothing to do with the actual game. Stuff like Age of Sigmar's bad in numerous ways. Criticism of 4e is stuff like "the rules don't let you roleplay!", and these self-same people will still go "D&D is the best game for roleplaying because there are no rules for roleplay" five seconds later on a different thread as we can see above. And, I mean, look at the complaints of people who swear they played it, no, for realsies! Someone said he played it then quit D&D forever because... the monster manual didn't include an ecology section. What? How did that come up in play sufficient to stop him playing D&D? Did the GM go "Well ordinarily there would be monsters here but unfortunately as monsters have no ecology sections nothing lives here and I am UNABLE TO CONTRAVENE THE RULEBOOK". And I'm fairly sure monsters do have fluff descriptors anyway.

Bedlamdan posted:

I'm pretty sure that's literally it. There was a Cortex Hack for Exalted that looked pretty good, though at this point most people are just glomming onto the 3E leaks.

3e leaks look pretty good but there's still so much goddamn stuff. And I'm not convinced it's fixed the timescale issue where for example a Dawn is fighting melees that take a few minutes, the Zenith is working on a social project over months, and the Twilight is assembling an ancient superweapon over decades.

spectralent fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jul 6, 2015

# ? Jul 6, 2015 11:17

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