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Crowsbeak posted:All I said was that I could care less that Jews are the majority, what I want is their fear and obedience. Its a pretty simple request. You cannot have a Jewish state without a Jewish majority; what you are saying is that you could care less about the existance of a Jewish state.
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Jul 6, 2015 09:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:You cannot have a Jewish state without a Jewish majority; what you are saying is that you could care less about the existance of a Jewish state. I do, in the sense that its continuing existence is based on if they accept American hegemony. But then I could also care less if their is a British state because likewise their existence comes with their obedience.
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Jul 6, 2015 09:08
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My Imaginary GF posted:Yes or no, is ISIL inspired by Palestine? No. ISIL is a caliphate, Palestine is not. ISIL demands all muslims adhere to their laws, Palestine is a multi-cultural state without Sharia law. Most importantly, ISIL's propaganda stream largely consists of anti-Western, anti-non-muslim messages combined with beheadings of prisoners of war, which is something closely related to their allies at their inception, Al Qaeda. Unless you have proof that Palestine has pioneered a specific type of smear campaign that ISIL and Al Qaeda both used which involves publicly beheading prisoners of war, what else does ISIL possibly have in common with specifically Palestine that is not a vague parallel you could draw with any resistance group?
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Jul 6, 2015 09:27
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Moreover, why does that matter? What point are you dragging from this comparison which justifies the ineffectual Israeli response to Palestinian military actions? Are you implying Palestine deserves to be eradicated because ISIL has allegedly adopted a propaganda technique of some kind? Is Palestine's very existence and continued resistance the reason you believe ISIL, Al Qaeda, and similar groups ever existed?
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Jul 6, 2015 09:31
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For those unfamiliar to the thread, MIGF is a deeply committed troll/mentally ill person who has openly called for the genocide of Muslims because they (all of them, because 9/11 and ISIS) are a threat to America, while simultaneously conflating any criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. Crowsbeak is countertrolling him by taking his insincere "America number one" persona to its logical conclusion. It's all quite droll.
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Jul 6, 2015 10:56
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Kajeesus posted:For those unfamiliar to the thread, MIGF is a deeply committed troll/mentally ill person who has openly called for the genocide of Muslims because they (all of them, because 9/11 and ISIS) are a threat to America, while simultaneously conflating any criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism. Crowsbeak is countertrolling him by taking his insincere "America number one" persona to its logical conclusion. It's all quite droll. Yeah, I did this before but after a while MIGF espousing insane positions like ("The Jewish State should have Constitutional protection" and "Suitcases of money to politicians are legitimate forms of inducement.") just ends up being boring.
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Jul 6, 2015 12:20
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Those dastardly Arabs are at it again! Luckily, our heroic Jewish defenders foiled their clever scheme!quote:PA Arabs Use a Snake to Attack Police and IDF
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Jul 6, 2015 15:34
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Not even any arrests? Is this like that Palestinian acid attack thing last year where it turned out a woman tripped walking out of a grocery store and dropped a bottle of vinegar near someone's car but the car owner reported it as a madwoman splashing acid onto her children's faces?
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Jul 6, 2015 15:41
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I suspect some soldiers found a snake on a fence and had a laugh at the expense of a journalist. This will expand to the point where snakes and all possible food or nutrients that could be used to keep snakes alive will be embargoed from Palestinian areas. The soldiers will feel kind of embarassed things got so out of hand but shrug and carry on with their lives.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:55
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I'm currently posting on facebook about reading and translating old satire - stuff like the excerpts I've previously posted here, or this. This country consigns satire (and all matter of other things) to the memory hole incredibly fast. Talking to fairly well educated people about the origins of "shooting and crying" (translated above) and they don't have a clue (nor do they really care). Could be because the popular expression "Israeli realities are too insane for satire to remain effective" has a bit of a point - while elsewhere, the song above would serve as a popular warning for decades on end, over here no one even finds it funny at this point - it just describes a rather obvious and permanent state of affairs in which a decorated army service is more than enough qualification for at least a back-bench MK. Then again, the Israeli internet doesn't really retain anything of value. You can go on youtube and find a dozen clips of Senior Bush's "read my lips" within seconds. On the other hand, even though "A New Middle East" might well be Peres' biggest contribution to pop-politics lexicon, a clip of that is near impossible to find. (The thread collectively erupts into "what the poo poo is your point, and are you ever going to get to it?") My point is, that a lot of Israelis basically accept and don't really think about, much less question, some hosed up realities not even related to the I/P conflict. So introducing those to people who are sure that Israel is basically a liberal democracy in the Middle East may help change their minds. Point out that the army basically controls the government, that the country is closer to being ruled by Sharia law than something like Turkey... for the other side of the political spectrum, mention the total gun control and socialized medicine  Anything else that really surprised you and didn't jive with the ostensible image of the only democracy in the Middle East? Xander77 fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jul 6, 2015 |
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Jul 6, 2015 16:56
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Did I really just read 3 pages of someone being trolled by MIGF I don't evenXander77 posted:Anything else that really surprised you and didn't jive with the ostensible image of the only democracy in the Middle East? I don't think most right-wing Americans (the target audience that buys the "only democracy in the Middle East" cant) would be terribly uncomfortable with the problematic aspects of Israeli life (military service/contacts pretty much required for business/political success, state-supported religion interfering with laws and daily life regularly) and wish America was more like Israel in those respects.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:05
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Lum_ posted:Did I really just read 3 pages of someone being trolled by MIGF I don't even Nah, I was just calmly letting him express his opinions on I/P and mostly pointing him back toward a single point to either refute or acknowledge, but he couldn't even do that
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Jul 6, 2015 17:16
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Lum_ posted:Did I really just read 3 pages of someone being trolled by MIGF I don't even No it was more of a troll off. I was using Roman logic to argue for Israel being forced to aknowlege the hegemony of America.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:16
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Who cares what you two thought you were doing, MIGF is one of the most malodorous posters on D&D and baiting him into giving us more goddamn posts is not a productive use of any thread's time. Is there any actual news out of Israel and Palestine worth discussing, besides a snake-based prank? How's Netanyahu's volatile government coalition holding together? I saw some headlines suggesting he's taking flack for not having influence (read: sinking) the Iran nuclear deal, so I'm guessing criticism is mostly from his right?
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Jul 6, 2015 17:35
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Absurd Alhazred posted:In light of that, they might see Frank Luntz's latest polling results as cause for concern. The headline is "Israel losing Democrats, ‘can’t claim bipartisan US support,’ top pollster warns", and I find the following paragraphs particularly interesting (discussing the use of language in messaging, Luntz's specialty): Beyond consider the source, this remains me of a Pew survey from a few months back that people freaked out about for no good reason. There was a huge difference in Republican and Democratic support for Israel, only Democratic support has pretty much been flat for 15 years while Republican support has massively increased.
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Jul 6, 2015 19:12
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death .cab for qt posted:Nah, I was just calmly letting him express his opinions on I/P and mostly pointing him back toward a single point to either refute or acknowledge, but he couldn't even do that  Seriously though after a week of nothing in the I/p thread I saw 54 new posts and it turned out to be 54 posts of that
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Jul 6, 2015 19:52
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Hiliary has announced she is anti BDS It isn't exactly surprising but I'd have hoped she'd at least steer clear of the issue unless pressed on it, not dive straight into it without any prompting. While stating her commitment to a two state solution, it defends Israel as a "vibrant democracy" and points out how Hilary has defended Israel in the UN and the Humans Rights Council, condemned the Goldstone report and blocked attempts at the UN to declare Palestinian statehood. Furthermore, she promises to 'speak out' on that issue in weeks to come. Looks like as Clinton has sensed the strained relationship between Obama and Netanyahu and is looking to cover herself and garner support.
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Jul 6, 2015 20:21
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team overhead smash posted:Hiliary has announced she is anti BDS This is whatever, but she's also privately telling big donors that she'll be way better for Israel than Obama was. edit: this letter wasn't without prompting, it was in exchange for the $2m he just gave her PAC.
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Jul 6, 2015 20:26
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team overhead smash posted:Hiliary has announced she is anti BDS
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Jul 6, 2015 20:55
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All the more reason to succumb to BERNIEMANIA! WOOOOOOOO GET EM TIGER
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Jul 6, 2015 21:46
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Xandu posted:This is whatever, but she's also privately telling big donors that she'll be way better for Israel than Obama was. Yeah it's prime donation season. There was also a big politico article on this, never mind the fact that she gave a huge interview to Jeffrey Goldberg a few months ago calling the Gaza War justified. She'd obviously prefer a Labor government and Sanders would prefer Meretz, but you have two committed Zionists leading the Democratic primary, and support a given on the other side. That's 8 years of a blank check for Israel minimum in the can. What'll really be interesting is if Hillary starts tangling with Europe over BDS. edit: typed this without seeing the post above, Bernie supports groups like Meretz but is still definitively pro-Israel.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:22
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Kim Jong Il posted:edit: typed this without seeing the post above, Bernie supports groups like Meretz but is still definitively pro-Israel. Yeah, I wasn't being serious, just felt like something was needed to break up elections sadchat.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:36
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Goddamnit, it's frustrating to know Obama's minor kerfuffle with Netanyahu based mostly on personal dislike is probably going to be the high point of American intransigence regarding Israel from now until the Palestinians are a distant memory. I'm not sure what even more of a blank check could accomplish that hasn't already been done. Increased settlement in the West Bank? Annexation of Area C? Expulsion of Palestinians from East Jerusalem? I don't think Israel's restrained itself in any recent military venture due to America, so I guess the semi-annual Gaza bombardments will continue on schedule.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:55
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Dolash posted:Goddamnit, it's frustrating to know Obama's minor kerfuffle with Netanyahu based mostly on personal dislike is probably going to be the high point of American intransigence regarding Israel from now until the Palestinians are a distant memory. Being that Bibi will likely be in power a long time, I think we can be assured that in the long run Israel will strain its relations with the USA.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:06
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Crowsbeak posted:Being that Bibi will likely be in power a long time, I think we can be assured that in the long run Israel will strain its relations with the USA. His coalition right now is razor thin and he seems to have alienated a great deal of the Israeli public... but Netanyahu is nothing if not an utterly ruthless political survivor.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:26
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New Division posted:His coalition right now is razor thin and he seems to have alienated a great deal of the Israeli public... but Netanyahu is nothing if not an utterly ruthless political survivor. Frankly the Palestinians salvation lies in Bibi staying in power and alienating Hillary.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:31
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Crowsbeak posted:Frankly the Palestinians salvation lies in Bibi staying in power and alienating Hillary. One can hope: Bill Clinton after his first meeting with Bibi posted:Who the gently caress does he think he is? Who's the loving superpower here?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:53
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Dolash posted:Goddamnit, it's frustrating to know Obama's minor kerfuffle with Netanyahu based mostly on personal dislike is probably going to be the high point of American intransigence regarding Israel from now until the Palestinians are a distant memory. The Americans have more influence with Israel as a friend than as an antagonist. The military aid is more of a subsidy to our defense contractors than anything, couched in a way that makes the religious base and pro-Israel donors happy. You're overlooking a lot of places where the sides have sparred, especially with regard to building in East Jerusalem. If you read the other side, it's story after story about how Obama hates Israel, so the complete other perspective does exist. (Regardless of the validity, because I think that's bullshit and this is bullshit too.) I don't think another Gaza war will happen for a while. Hamas didn't want the last war to happen, it was started by rogue elements. They've been negotiating heavily with Israel lately per leaks in the Israeli press. Israel is weary of pissing off the Europeans for no tangible gain, and is actively trying to build on budding relationships with KSA and the Gulf States. Should be the status quo for now. Kim Jong Il fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 00:20
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Got excited after seeing like 70+ posts in this thread then realized it was just MIGF up to his boring fuckery.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:35
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Kim Jong Il posted:The Americans have more influence with Israel as a friend than as an antagonist. The military aid is more of a subsidy to our defense contractors than anything, couched in a way that makes the religious base and pro-Israel donors happy. You're overlooking a lot of places where the sides have sparred, especially with regard to building in East Jerusalem. If you read the other side, it's story after story about how Obama hates Israel, so the complete other perspective does exist. (Regardless of the validity, because I think that's bullshit and this is bullshit too.) If people think Obama hates Israel and the next President, Clinton or Bush, campaigns on being a better friend, wouldn't that "better friendship" be expressed as support for some ambitious move that Israel would not have been able to get away with while Obama was President? Building in East Jerusalem, for example, is something that got called counterproductive in the wishy-washy way that the current administration disagreed with Netanyahu. If Hillary continues to disapprove of that construction then she can't really contrast herself against Obama and those same accusations of being anti-Israel will carry over. If she approves, well, goodbye territorial integrity of the West Bank.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:45
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Not necessarily - in most draft agreements, the PA will be turning over parts of Jerusalem and settlement blocs near the Green Line. The Israeli government thinks there's a meaningful distinction between Ariel (which is massive and far beyond the Green Line), or the little outposts, and areas they'd keep in a draft agreement. In this sense, building in E1 is just a negotiating tactic, just like pushback against building is. Fatah launched the Second Intifada to similarly attempt to extract concessions.
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Jul 7, 2015 04:04
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When Hillary was running against Obama in the primary, I was working for a top firm on Wall Street. Firm partners would drop huge money to attend an in-person meeting at our offices in a conference room. Partners are obligated to pay (wink wink) but don't give a poo poo to show up, so Junior associates would be given the slot to meet Hillary. I learned I was supposed to meet Hillary Clinton 15 minutes beforehand; the partner was on a conference call. I hadn't slept or shaved, yay. This was a perfunctory appearance. She shows up here for an hour, gets around 500-900k, the interests our firm represents maintain influence, badda bing badda boom. In this room there were seven people, two of whom were intensely interested in Israel. Hillary gave a full-throated defense of that country, asserted its central role as our ally in foreign policy, and promised that no matter what happened, no matter what she had to say in public, Israel would be our enduring and favored partner in the region. Yeah that's a lot of words, but that's what gets said in little fundraiser meetings to people who are reliable, regular donors to dems. Martin Random fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 04:21
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Kim Jong Il posted:Fatah launched the Second Intifada to similarly attempt to extract concessions. Wasn't this just unsupported propaganda at the time to try and lay the blame at Arafat's door while negotiations were ongoing? From the actual accounts I've seen, it was a spontaneous uprising.
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Jul 7, 2015 08:07
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team overhead smash posted:Hiliary has announced she is anti BDS Hillary's handwriting is terrible. "Look forwarl to wol4ry with yo on this" Her position was already known though. Everyone knows she's a pro-Israel hawk.
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Jul 7, 2015 10:44
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At least Bernie has the guts to get in a shouting match with voters at a town hall meeting about I/P. Hillary just magically doesn't seem to run into anybody who argues with her, and if she does there is no footage of it because all the journalists are behind a rope cordon down the street.
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Jul 7, 2015 15:04
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One thing that will become interesting after the election is Bill Clinton. Hillary is proclaiming complete support for Israel and Netanyahu, but Bill has previously gone on record saying that Netanyahu and Israeli radicalism are the two forces that have done the most to make Middle East peace impossible, often making reference to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. He's kept quiet about it over the past couple of years, likely to avoid getting dragged into the campaign, but he slipped up last year and made his views pretty clear:quote:Hillary’s Israel script and knocks Netanyahu I don't expect Bill to change Hillary's mind or anything, but I do expect he'll probably be more vocal once the election season is over and he can speak out without endangering a Democratic campaign, and his perspective on Israel is a rare one among Democrats.
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Jul 7, 2015 15:36
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Martin Random posted:When Hillary was running against Obama in the primary, I was working for a top firm on Wall Street. Firm partners would drop huge money to attend an in-person meeting at our offices in a conference room. Partners are obligated to pay (wink wink) but don't give a poo poo to show up, so Junior associates would be given the slot to meet Hillary. I learned I was supposed to meet Hillary Clinton 15 minutes beforehand; the partner was on a conference call. I hadn't slept or shaved, yay. I've worked on the other end of this being the guy whom you give your check to, and boy, what's great about America is just how nuch freedom our communities have to organize and advocate for issues of social justice, like you saw with jews and their informal advocacy for Israel's continued existance as the Jewish state.
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Jul 7, 2015 17:00
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At last, noted Something Awful Goon and $500,000 an hour check receiver My Imaginary GF finally speaks out.
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Jul 7, 2015 18:13
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Main Paineframe posted:One thing that will become interesting after the election is Bill Clinton. Hillary is proclaiming complete support for Israel and Netanyahu, but Bill has previously gone on record saying that Netanyahu and Israeli radicalism are the two forces that have done the most to make Middle East peace impossible, often making reference to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin. He's kept quiet about it over the past couple of years, likely to avoid getting dragged into the campaign, but he slipped up last year and made his views pretty clear: This is more of a Presidential election discussion, but I'm actually pretty curious how vocal (or at least influential behind the scenes) Bill will be in a Hillary administration, since he wouldn't want to undermine her or give the impression that he's being President through her. Hillary was politically prominent for a First Lady during Bill's administration so there may be some precedent there where he can get away with being politically active, but I seriously doubt he'd do anything as dangerous as publicly disagree with her on Israel. Hopefully Netanyahu just gets on her nerves the same way he did Obama's.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:08
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She would spin it as while she supports the country and people of Israel she does not necessarily agree with very certain defined things the current government does or says. As it stands we have no idea how Netanyahu would act during Hillary's adminitration because as hes proved time and time again hes a ruthless short term political oppurtunist.
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Jul 7, 2015 21:41
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