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ArbitraryC posted:Reddit was the main one I was reading about before gamergate was even a coined term but iirc it extended to some chan boards. But this was over a year ago and my memory is a bit hazy, the original thread in gbs had a pretty unbiased coverage of the meltdown but I can't find it. Well, I'm convinced.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:46
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Just so we're clear, you are talking about the discussions where people were planning the best methods of attack to make her suicidal, right? The same discussions where her personal information was thrown about, calling for people to harass her and her family? Because that was kind of the stuff that was deleted.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:46
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Ddraig posted:As far as I can tell, it was mainly the moderators at reddit who did this. I know GamerGate likes to paint Zoe as a slut but she couldn't have possibly hosed all those people. https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2dz0gs/totalbiscuit_discusses_the_state_of_games/ Do you think that over 20,000 posts here all deserved to be deleted? The reddit mods were unnecessarily heavy-handed about the entire thing, and that just made people want to talk about the whole situation more.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:47
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ArbitraryC posted:darvo is literally exactly what quinn did to eron. His chatlogs were irontight and zoe herself admitted to pretty much everything when pressed on it, eron was an actual victim here and the refusal to treat him like one is just due to gender bias in how we view abusive relationships. It's strange that so many still care so much about the year-old emotional distress of a singular basically anonymous nobody. One less charitable might assume that this is because they identify with his peril as a whining loser who got totally owned
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Jul 6, 2015 23:48
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Hadaka Apron posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2dz0gs/totalbiscuit_discusses_the_state_of_games/ It depends, were they about the state of games or the state of Zoe's vagina? What relevance does one have with the other?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:49
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Ddraig posted:Just so we're clear, you are talking about the discussions where people were planning the best methods of attack to make her suicidal, right? The same discussions where her personal information was thrown about, calling for people to harass her and her family?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:50
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ArbitraryC posted:When eron posted his manifesto and people were talking about it friends of quinn were the ones to bar discussion of it on forums and actively deleted thousands of posts on the topic and such. How is stopping a large group on the Internet from stalking and harassing someone for a private (and likely entirely made up) matter a bad thing? I take it that by thinking those posts shouldn't have been deleted that you support doxxing?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:51
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Ddraig posted:Just so we're clear, you are talking about the discussions where people were planning the best methods of attack to make her suicidal, right? The same discussions where her personal information was thrown about, calling for people to harass her and her family? More than that was deleted. However, the other stuff that was deleted tended to just be reposts of Gjoni's rant posted on video game discussion forums. They were deleted typically because one jilted ex's crazy manifesto doesn't have anything to do with video games. Which was the reason the whole "ethics in gaming journalism" angle got invented. Because if they could tie Gjoni's ravings to the topic of gaming journalism, then it would be on-topic and perhaps the posts would stay up.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:51
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Ddraig posted:It depends, were they about the state of games or the state of Zoe's vagina? What relevance does one have with the other? I'm sure that plenty of them were inappropriate, but I doubt that all of them were inappropriate. Sometimes you need a scalpel instead of a bludgeon.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:52
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ArbitraryC posted:Well yeah but it's clear that personal connections are what absolved her of all wrongdoing in the first place. It's not like they deleted thousands of reddit posts and circled the journalistic wagons on her for no reason. Sure maybe some stupid people have clung to misinformation in their attempt to articulate their grievances but the general complaints that zoe is a lovely person who abused her boyfriend then used her connections to manipulate the media narrative surrounding coverage of her is entirely accurate. What do you mean when you say they "absolved her of all wrongdoing"?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:53
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Who What Now posted:How is stopping a large group on the Internet from stalking and harassing someone for a private (and likely entirely made up) matter a bad thing? I take it that by thinking those posts shouldn't have been deleted that you support doxxing?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:54
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ArbitraryC posted:I agree with you, but what got a lot of the guys mad about this incident is that the same courtesy wasn't extended to max temkin or other similar targets because they weren't women. I completely agree that forming online mobs to harass people over stuff they may or may not have done (you only have hearsay to go off most of the time) is bad, but the same sites treating the groups doing it to zoe as a hatemob did literally the same thing to other people and their pet issues. So? Do you think that justifies counter-counter-harassment? Because that's the only possible reason you would bring this up.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:55
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Who What Now posted:So? Do you think that justifies counter-counter-harassment? Because that's the only possible reason you would bring this up. two wrong makes a right. Maybe enough wrongs will make everything right.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:56
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Ddraig posted:Just so we're clear, you are talking about the discussions where people were planning the best methods of attack to make her suicidal, right? The same discussions where her personal information was thrown about, calling for people to harass her and her family? People focus way too much on the harassment. The relevant point here is that nothing about Gamer Gate is worthwhile, and that's a far broader and more relevant condemnation than the minority of its constituent man-infants who tweet threats and slander at people they dislike instead of just posting them in their shithead safespaces
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Jul 6, 2015 23:57
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ArbitraryC posted:darvo is literally exactly what quinn did to eron. His chatlogs were irontight and zoe herself admitted to pretty much everything when pressed on it, eron was an actual victim here and the refusal to treat him like one is just due to gender bias in how we view abusive relationships. GamerGate is allowed to accuse others of gender bias but can't be criticized themselves. Is that how this works?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:57
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ArbitraryC posted:I agree with you, but what got a lot of the guys mad about this incident is that the same courtesy wasn't extended to max temkin or other similar targets because they weren't women. What courtesy? Were there reddit threads with 20.000+ posts about Max Temkin chock-full of his personal info, including nude pictures?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:58
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Who What Now posted:So? Do you think that justifies counter-counter-harassment? Because that's the only possible reason you would bring this up.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:58
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Did Max Temkin undergo a months-long harassment campaign, or was it mostly just a spate of people going "Well I'm not supporting CAH anymore"?
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Jul 6, 2015 23:59
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ArbitraryC posted:No, I don't and I explicitly said harassment was wrong. I just don't think the anti side has a moral high horse to stand on here. Whereas GG don't even have a horse.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:59
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Ddraig posted:two wrong makes a right. Maybe enough wrongs will make everything right. His argument is literally "but they were no angels". He could at least have the decency to be upfront about it instead of doing the whole "oh no I totally agree that harassment is bad, but you know this other side did it once or twice too so really who's the real bad guy? Makes you think..." shtick.
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Jul 6, 2015 23:59
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Useful Distraction posted:What courtesy?
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Jul 7, 2015 00:00
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ArbitraryC posted:No, I don't and I explicitly said harassment was wrong. I just don't think the anti side has a moral high horse to stand on here. Ok, but why was it relevant in your denouncement of harassment to include the whole "but the other side did it too!" thing? Why can't you just say "harassment is wrong" without also trying to justify it in the same breath?
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Jul 7, 2015 00:01
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ArbitraryC posted:No but instead the blogs that defended zoe dragged him through the dirt and generated the same kind of hostility against him that they're decrying here. I don't think it's quite the same level of hostility unless there are 20,000+ posts containing personal information about his family and nude photos.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:01
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Hadaka Apron posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2dz0gs/totalbiscuit_discusses_the_state_of_games/ So you think the reddit mods of gaming were all friends of Zoe, and that she has the power to make them mass delete everything? Or maybe the mods that they were concerned there was a lot of doxxing and hate and harassment directed at an individual in a forum meant to be about gaming and decided to remove it? Gamergate tends to lump a lot of emphasis on Zoe's conspiratorial power and connections when it is not really the case at all. It's the same with the 'gamers are dead' articles - It's not her connections, it's the media seeing something horrible happening to people and reporting on it. They all magically appeared on the same day because it was the day after Anita received death threats and moved out of home. It's how news works, it's how moderation works, you don't need power and connections when your abusers are doing horrible things in public, people take notice on their own.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:02
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ArbitraryC posted:I agree with you, but what got a lot of the guys mad about this incident is that the same courtesy wasn't extended to max temkin or other similar targets because they weren't women. Interesting, you seem to be suggesting that the original spark of 'GamerGate' is that Zoe Quinn was falsely accused of rape, and that this dismissal of a woman rapist's guilt was the crux of the issue. I appreciate this may be misreading, so could you, for the benefit of those as bad at reading as I, clarify how Zoe's situation mirrors or parallels that of Temkin's?
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Jul 7, 2015 00:03
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blackguy32 posted:While I don't disagree that there are moderates in the movement, at some point you can't keep rolling with this poo poo and come out untainted. There is nothing stopping moderates from carving out a 3rd path and going their own way while dumping the GamerGate moniker. I think it would be difficult to achieve at this moment, but once GamerGate is dead and forgotten it would be a good idea.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:04
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I really don't understand why GamerGate hate Zoe, if she has much power as they believe her to have she could sort a lot of the world's problems. Airdrop her into the middle east and her vagina will sort things out. it can topple entire regimes, ISIS don't stand a loving chance. Maybe we could drop her into North Korea to sort that out in time for lunch.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:04
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Who What Now posted:Ok, but why was it relevant in your denouncement of harassment to include the whole "but the other side did it too!" thing? Why can't you just say "harassment is wrong" without also trying to justify it in the same breath? I'm not attempting to justify it, I'm just saying that stupid posts like these Supercar Gautier posted:The people who made Quinn's phone (and those of her family members) ring off the hook with death threats, you mean.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:05
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ArbitraryC posted:I'm not attempting to justify it, I'm just saying that stupid posts like these No, the reason why GG exists is because a woman had sex.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:06
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ArbitraryC posted:Reddit was the main one I was reading about before gamergate was even a coined term but iirc it extended to some chan boards. But this was over a year ago and my memory is a bit hazy, the original thread in gbs had a pretty unbiased coverage of the meltdown but I can't find it. So what you're saying is that Zoe Quinn's lovers deleted posts on a chan board because they didn't want people talking about her? Did they hack the chan board in order to delete posts as well because I believe what you're saying and if this is true then this is a serious crime they committed.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:06
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Zoe Quinn is really dumb. The people who harassed her are even dumber. Everyone is dumb who gives a poo poo about this stuff, make a game, and the quality of your game will be its own merits. Don't make a poo poo game and then bemoan that it wasn't well received because "patriarchy".
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Jul 7, 2015 00:08
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Goffer posted:So you think the reddit mods of gaming were all friends of Zoe, and that she has the power to make them mass delete everything? I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that their heavy-handed actions made it look like she held enormous influence. Remember, this is the same reddit that dragged its feet over deleting the jailbait subreddit for months. Getting stuff deleted from the Internet is a futile effort, no matter who does it. It didn't work when Barbra Streisand tried to get that picture of her house taken down, it didn't work when Glenn Beck sued over that "Glenn Beck Raped and Murdered a Young Girl" site, it didn't work when digg tried to clamp down on people posting 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0, and it didn't work here.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:08
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Hadaka Apron posted:https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2dz0gs/totalbiscuit_discusses_the_state_of_games/ There can't possibly be 20,000 abusive or illegal posts on the internet, right?
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Jul 7, 2015 00:09
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Hadaka Apron posted:I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that their heavy-handed actions made it look like she held enormous influence. Remember, this is the same reddit that dragged its feet over deleting the jailbait subreddit for months. So it's not about the truth, it's about the perception of truth? That doesn't seem very ethical to me.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:09
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Ddraig posted:So it's not about the truth, it's about the perception of truth? I'm not saying that the harassment is okay, just that everyone involved dealt with it in the worst way possible.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:11
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ArbitraryC posted:I'm not attempting to justify it, I'm just saying that stupid posts like these No, the huge reason GG exists in the first place is that a woman had the gall to have sex and her jilted ex-boyfriend rounded up an Internet mob to harass her. We literally just went over this.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:12
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Hadaka Apron posted:I'm not saying that the harassment is okay, just that everyone involved dealt with it in the worst way possible. I'm still not sure what this has to do with Zoe, though. She didn't do anything. It doesn't matter that she didn't delete the posts, or have the posts deleted, just that it appears that she did. How could Zoe have handled it better? Could she have? Take into account that she didn't actually do anything to begin with.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:13
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blackguy32 posted:
Well, not any more. The author admits as much in a tweet recently that what he wrote in October would not longer work but has ideas how it could be ended now (which I really wish he would do a article on). ImpAtom posted:That isn't really what that article ends up saying as near as I can tell. It basically paints 'moderate' GGers as blameless innocent people who only want ethical games journalism without actually citing what ethical games journalism is beyond some pretty extreme examples. Zoe will always come up eventual because either side will try to use what happened as a stick to beat the other side with. Other than that she has honestly moved to the way side. To bring it to ethics in game journalism do you agree/disagree with IGN's Standards of Practices(Not needed, too far, too little, etc)? They came about around October of last year: http://www.ign.com/wikis/ign/Standards_and_Practices Other Pro-GG have been pushing for a full version of the SPJ ethics code: http://www.spj.org/ethicscode.asp Knifegrab posted:Zoe Quinn is really dumb. The people who harassed her are even dumber. True dat.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:14
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Tesseraction posted:Interesting, you seem to be suggesting that the original spark of 'GamerGate' is that Zoe Quinn was falsely accused of rape, and that this dismissal of a woman rapist's guilt was the crux of the issue. I appreciate this may be misreading, so could you, for the benefit of those as bad at reading as I, clarify how Zoe's situation mirrors or parallels that of Temkin's? I think this frustration spread out in a lot of misguided ways and I stopped following gg shortly after it became more of a mainstream thing because it seemed like everyone involved was lovely, but I can empathize with the people who thought the whole situation was unfair at the start.
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Jul 7, 2015 00:14
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One thing about Max's (alleged) bad behavior is that it was actively covered by the same press that went into overdrive to pretend GG didn't exist as long as possible, then form a phalanx formation around Zoe/Nathan. IIRC, there was some amount of outrage in some corners that Max dared to defend himself from a rape charge instead of just accepting it as a "teachable moment" about his "privilege." There might not have been 20k posts about Max on reddit, but "one less charitable" might assume that this is because there was no similar (coordinated?) attempt to squash discussion/coverage of the case at popular forums/sites. Tezzor posted:It's strange that so many still care so much about the year-old emotional distress of a singular basically anonymous nobody. One less charitable might assume that this is because they identify with his peril as a whining loser who got totally owned I know I'm feeding (not) Hellthread's MVP troll at this point, but gently caress it. "Clearly abusive behavior in relationships is dandy so long the target fits my definition of a boogeyman stereotype." Is this the game we're playing, Tezzor?
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