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BravestOfTheLamps posted:ArbitraryC, the solution is not to condemn the media for what they did right. It's to condemn them for what they did wrong. That's what I'm trying to do, the first step imo then is to acknowledge that there were clearly some doublestandards in how we approached a male victim vs a female victim.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:11
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circ dick soleil posted:They mishandled their undeserved harassment, so therefore they deserved it? Isn't that how bullying works? It's the Streisand effect in action. They exist, people point out they exist, they harass them for existing, by continuing to exist they merely bring attention to their own existence, which in turn causes more harassment.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:11
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I don't agree with you here. I think Gawker is a collection of for-profit blogs that engage in something resembling journalism, while Gamergate is the remnants of a harassment campaign that sort of petered out after it claimed it collectively cared about ethics. They're very dissimilar, in my mind. I won't miss Gawker though, so I don't mind if GamerGate succeeds in getting it censored. Usually I'm anti-censorship but in this case I'll let GG have their fun.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:12
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ArbitraryC posted:That's what I'm trying to do, the first step imo then is to acknowledge that there were clearly some doublestandards in how we approached a male victim vs a female victim. I don't see this connection. Do you think that male victims are treated more roughly?
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Jul 7, 2015 02:12
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Ddraig posted:It's the Streisand effect in action. They exist, people point out they exist, they harass them for existing, by continuing to exist they merely bring attention to their own existence, which in turn causes more harassment. Which makes it okay?
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Jul 7, 2015 02:12
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If there was no Zoe Quinn, there could have been no harassment campaign. She only has herself to blame. (I don't think it's OK, I think it's loving awful, but the circular logic of why they totally had it coming and continued to do so merely for being there to take it is odd)
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Jul 7, 2015 02:13
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ArbitraryC posted:That's what I'm trying to do, the first step imo then is to acknowledge that there were clearly some doublestandards in how we approached a male victim vs a female victim. Okay it's acknowledged.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:13
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Popular Thug Drink posted:I don't see this connection. Do you think that male victims are treated more roughly? I think that if the "right" solution is to character eron as a jilted ex lover just trying to ruin her day then that's what we should have done with max's accuser.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:13
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ImpAtom posted:I guess I'm not really clear what the point of it is. That is perfectly standard if perhaps a bit too loose in places for my tastes. If that is GG's end goal then they won before they even started, barring exceptions which are literally always going to be the case in any form of journalism. (Fox New exists after all.) Well that was just one site, not all agree that they need or want a ethics policy (or even what one should be). Are you asking if journalism ethics should be a thing at all in video game reporting?
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Jul 7, 2015 02:14
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ArbitraryC posted:I think that if the "right" solution is to character eron as a jilted ex lover just trying to ruin her day then that's what we should have done with max's accuser. Max's accuser did not spend days writing up every ugly detail of Max to get revenge on him, like what happened to Quinn. She simply said that he raped her, and that was it. They are not remotely similar situations, at all. Do you think that people commonly accuse their exes of rape, to get revenge on them?
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Jul 7, 2015 02:15
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ArbitraryC posted:I think that if the "right" solution is to character eron as a jilted ex lover just trying to ruin her day then that's what we should have done with max's accuser. The job of the media is not to "characterise" anyone or concoct suitable narratives.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:16
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I really can't imagine the Kafkaesque situation where you wake up one morning and discover that a vast proportion of certain sections of the internet has decided you are the worst human being to have ever lived, and this is reinforced by actions taken that you had no part in. That actions taken on your behalf, without your knowledge, have ruined your life, when you did nothing to warrant it.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:17
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ArbitraryC posted:I think that if the "right" solution is to character eron as a jilted ex lover just trying to ruin her day then that's what we should have done with max's accuser. I think that most people forget about their exes and put them in the past rather than continuing to obsess over them and follow them on social media. It's not like this type of behavior hasn't been seen before. It's pretty common and is usually associated with abusiveness, although I guess that's another one of those things that GG would want people to forget about.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:17
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:The job of the media is not to "characterise" anyone or concoct suitable narratives.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:17
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ArbitraryC posted:I think that if the "right" solution is to character eron as a jilted ex lover just trying to ruin her day then that's what we should have done with max's accuser. You realize that people don't consider Eron a crazed ex-lover just because he's male, right? It's because he put together a 50 page manifesto about how his ex-girlfriend sucked, tried to publicize it to the already existing hate mob that had taken a run at her in the past (during their relationship even, if I'm remembering my times correctly), and then decided to hang around with said stirred up hate mob to let them pick his brain for more mud to sling. thefncrow fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 02:18
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ArbitraryC, it's really quite incredible to me that you think that a multiple thousands word long essay exquisitly destroying an ex-girlfriend's character is at all even a tiny little bit remotely like an anonymous rape accusation. Especially when that essay snowballed into Gamergate.
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 02:29 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 02:18
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ArbitraryC posted:Yeah I agree with that, ideally stuff that boils down to rumor mongering wouldn't be a part of journalism at all and sites like gawker would make money off turning people into popular villains of the hour. You're problem is with capitalism. Trying to suppress those people is an ultimately futile quest.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:18
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Who What Now posted:Why would he do this? To what ends? Social Justice.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:18
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Powercrazy posted:Social Justice. What is social justice?
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Jul 7, 2015 02:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:There is no conspiracy by blue-haired devil sociopaths to silence people. This isn't a conspiracy, it's a byproduct of human evolution. Women, as a group, are valued by society more than men. A man, as an individual, is valued more than a woman, as an individual, even if their accomplishments are the same. It's frustrating, but easily evidenced. In this case it materialized as a narrative bias where "women are being attacked!" was swallowed up and spit out as a central narrative in an ideological conflict.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:23
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Ork of Fiction posted:This isn't a conspiracy, it's a byproduct of human evolution. Women, as a group, are valued by society more than men. A man, as an individual, is valued more than a woman, as an individual, even if their accomplishments are the same. It's frustrating, but easily evidenced. ArbitraryC posted:It did though, that's literally when it started. If the same communities and blogs that threw max under the bus gave Zoe the same treatment gamergate would have never been a thing. Instead zoe used her connections first to try and censor the issue, and then when that didn't work, to have an organized smear campaign that misrepresented people's grievances and characterized everything as misogynistic in nature. That's what created the original two sides, one full of the people who got poo poo on in a series of journal articles, the other full of people who took the onesided coverage as wholesale gospel. I think that's why it became more vague and about 'ethics in video game journalism', because the community felt really betrayed by the cronyism in how everything went down in the coverage. This is a conspiracy theory.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:24
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a conspiracy theory. Haha. Yep. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 7, 2015 02:25
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I haven't seen anything that would suggest anti-GG is any more organized than GG, especially when GG has e-celebrities to represent them, a website that they've bought ads for, and several forums that can be pointed to that show where most of the GG discussion and decision-making is taking place.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:27
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ArbitraryC posted:You are impressively disingenuous, I was saying that under any sort of official context of the movement (so much as there can be one) harassment is against the rules and they do whatever they can to minimize it. In general I do not support doxxing no. In general you don't support it, meaning that you do support doxxing and harasment when it's against "the right people". And going by your posts you file women who angry ex-boyfriends rant and spread unsubstantiated rumors about under the people who do deserve to be doxxed and harassed. Look, this would really go much easier if you would just own up to your beliefs, man.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:28
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is a conspiracy theory.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:28
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ArbitraryC posted:It's not really a conspiracy theory? She was in the social and professional circles of the people who circled their wagons around her and there were logs released that showed her interaction with some of them? Citation needed.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:29
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Who What Now posted:Look, this would really go much easier if you would just own up to your beliefs, man. This is how I feel about most GG discussion. I would be a lot more sympathetic to GamerGate if they hadn't lied to me constantly about everything.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:29
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ArbitraryC posted:It's not really a conspiracy theory? She was in the social and professional circles of the people who circled their wagons around her and there were logs released that showed her interaction with some of them? Having friends is not evidence of a conspiracy theory.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:30
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ArbitraryC posted:It's not really a conspiracy theory? She was in the social and professional circles of the people who circled their wagons around her and there were logs released that showed her interaction with some of them? Yes, logs that said "These creepy weirdos are spreading your personal information, is that cool with you?" and her saying "No, it isn't". Well good golly goddamn, someone call up the loving president because I think ArbitraryC just blew the case of 'Do People Like Being Doxxed' wide open!
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Jul 7, 2015 02:30
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circ dick soleil posted:What is social justice? What harassment is called when the "right" people do it to the "bad" people.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:31
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circ dick soleil posted:This is how I feel about most GG discussion. I would be a lot more sympathetic to GamerGate if they hadn't lied to me constantly about everything. I clearly don't actually support the harassment of people though and specifically said my beef is that the people who made a big deal about how bad of a thing it was this time facilitated it in the past and likely will continue to do so with the "right" targets.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:31
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BexGu posted:Well that was just one site, not all agree that they need or want a ethics policy (or even what one should be). Are you asking if journalism ethics should be a thing at all in video game reporting? I think journalism ethics should absolutely be a thing in video game reporting, but if that is what people are looking for then they already are. That doesn't make Gamergate's goal any clearer because it now feels like they're attacking imaginary enemies. Like, yeah, you know what? Kotaku is a giant pile of poo poo. It is an internet-based clickbait blog website designed to attract views through whatever means necessary. Is this lovely? Oh hell yes. It is also one of a thousand such websites that exist for everything under the sun. If your goal is to destroy Kotaku forever then more power to you but that isn't about ethics in games journalism, it's about the fact that lovely blogs exist and they are not going anywhere for the foreseeable future. If you're looking for a full-on reformation of games journalism to a high standard (which I approve of personally) then Gamergate absolutely is targeting the wrong people and going about it in a staggeringly wrong way. There's a lot of lovely and damaging things but repairing them takes more than going "we're for ethics in video games," especially because it involves a lot more complexity than just 'ethical journalism'.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:32
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Can I see these logs? I think that would restore my faith in GamerGate somewhat.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:32
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ArbitraryC posted:I clearly don't actually support the harassment of people though I literally have two quotes saying that you do.
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Jul 7, 2015 02:32
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Powercrazy posted:What harassment is called when the "right" people do it to the "bad" people. So GamerGate is social justice?
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Jul 7, 2015 02:32
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ArbitraryC posted:I clearly don't actually support the harassment of people though and specifically said my beef is that the people who made a big deal about how bad of a thing it was this time facilitated it in the past and likely will continue to do so with the "right" targets. ArbitraryC posted:It's not really a conspiracy theory? She was in the social and professional circles of the people who circled their wagons around her and there were logs released that showed her interaction with some of them? Uh-huh.  "Zoe Quinn is the devil." "We should stop her!" "Whoa, where did you get that idea?"
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Jul 7, 2015 02:33
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circ dick soleil posted:So GamerGate is social justice? Nope. Gamergate is a loose group of people upset at perceived problems, real or imaginary, in the games industry, that includes critics, publishers, advertisers and reviewers. Of course since it isn't organized in anyway they don't really have the power to do anything, but as a boogeyman they are perfect. They could most accurately be described as an informal consumer group, and they used to have letter writing campaigns, but according to reddit that is harassment so they can't do that anymore.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:02
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Well, it can be harassment or spam, depending on what's in the letters and who you send them to.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:03
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Powercrazy posted:Nope. Gamergate is a loose group of people upset at perceived problems, real or imaginary, in the games industry, that includes critics, publishers, advertisers and reviewers. Of course since it isn't organized in anyway they don't really have the power to do anything, but as a boogeyman they are perfect. But I know that's not true. GamerGate sees themselves as the "right" people and some of them were involved in harassing the people they consider to be "bad", or are you denying that? The fact that they try to appear disorganized doesn't say much, because like I said before, they're still much more organized than the "bad" guys. I know you're trying to make it sound like GamerGate is something new and good, but even from your description it comes off as being another delusional faux-outrage Tumblr hate mob.
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Jul 7, 2015 03:10
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ArbitraryC posted:It's not really a conspiracy theory? She was in the social and professional circles of the people who circled their wagons around her and there were logs released that showed her interaction with some of them? The first place to delete Eron's post was this website. How do you think she convinced the mods of Something Awful to "circle their wagons around her?"
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Jul 7, 2015 03:21
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