Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Grognards.txt NEXT: Goodnight, Sweet Wince

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

dwarf74 posted:

So our kids are staying with my folks for a week, and my wife and I found a theater that was still showing Fury Road. It was the first movie we've gone to in over 5 years.

Totally worth it. I was giddy like half the movie about how audacious the whole thing was.

I think I overhyped it for my dad, and he didn't like it. I shall carry that shame forever.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 05:53

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 02:21

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

LatwPIAT posted:

(One of the advantages of mostly keeping our laughing and pointing at anonymous sources unless they always tell everyone what they're smoking is that nobody might be put in the position of having their friends paraded arounds as freaks.)

I feel like I'm awaiting the day something old and terrible of mine emerges from some crevice on the internet. That being said, if you don't own your freakyness, others will own it for you.

In the meantime, Exalted.

Nikink posted:

Pre-writing notes:

Chimera Lunar. Saw Great contagion at least, maybe older. Driven mad by Wyld. Needs Hive form type Knacks, Charms and Mutations. Needs ability to become tiny. Despairing at loss of such large amounts of Creation to the Wyld, no longer believing humanity as it currently exists is able to defend Creation. Becomes a Sexually Transmitted Parasite a la Crabs. The most sexually active humans are likely to gain his attention and he uses his small form to gather the procreative juices. He uses the most sexually active people because he knows that a successful population must be able to breed fast in order to sustain losses and adapt to different environments fast through generations of breeding. Believes that Creation can be maintained by his tiny 'beastmen', and that because they are tiny that Creation is sufficiently large enough in comparison that the Fae can be placated by not needing to extend Creation past its current boundaries again. Needs some kind of awareness of danger charm to avoid Exalted level medicinal effects applied to the infected people. Is willing to breed Terrestrial bloodlines into his beastmen and thus is fond of House Cynis, to the point of Aiding the House with it's orgies - but is wary of the higher proportion of Exalts who may be able to 'cure' the infected. Believes his Beastmen can also survive contact with Fae who desire physical initmacy and can thus be infected...

# ? Jul 8, 2015 06:14

Kurieg: Jul 19, 2012; RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I feel like I'm awaiting the day something old and terrible of mine emerges from some crevice on the internet. That being said, if you don't own your freakyness, others will own it for you.

In the meantime, Exalted.

What The gently caress!?

Like, what are the beastmen in this case, is he turning all the children of those he infect into his children. Or is he spawning really tiny crab people?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 06:19

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

The worst I ever did was a Silent Strider who's dad had "traveled the globe" so to speak, and as such had half-brother and half-sisters of every supernatural type. It was mostly an excuse to have a lot of cool siblings.

Now I feel like a square.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 06:21

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

Circa mid 2000s RPG.net had a real loving problem with writing "sexy" exalted poo poo. Wasn't there a porn writing contest at some point?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 06:39

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Yeah, that's what some of this is from, it ran for three years straight.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 07:53

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Kurieg posted:

What The gently caress!?

Like, what are the beastmen in this case, is he turning all the children of those he infect into his children. Or is he spawning really tiny crab people?

Crab people
Crab people
Heals like Exalt
Armor piercing melee attack

# ? Jul 8, 2015 08:08

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Kurieg posted:

What The gently caress!?

Like, what are the beastmen in this case, is he turning all the children of those he infect into his children. Or is he spawning really tiny crab people?

I guess he's crossing humans with an STD? Also he is an STD? I guess?

Exalted!

Rhubardin posted:

Well this will be my first post to the WIKI and I hope you like it. It mostly deals with the cultural notes of one realm dynast and his observations of a very unique type of beastperson.

WARNING: HARDCORE SNUGGLING AHEAD! IF YOU FEAR EVEN TOUCHING A PLUSH ANIMAL, LET ALONE A HUMAN BEING, IS A SEX ACT DO NOT PROCEED!

Taken from the journals of Cynis Casanove who was found dead of an unknown malady with only his books and a creepy smile several months ago

PHYSIOLOGY: Bunny girls are designed to be cute and appeal to people of all ages, genders, and "tastes". Their bodies are unusually soft and warm and many are known to make squeaking noises when poked or hugged

The facial area deserves special mention. Their cheeks are plump and round with great big dimples from their ever present smiles and their scarlet blushes will show through thier soft silky fur. While their faces are primarily lapine complete with a short muzzle, pink quivering noses, and long whiskers their dental structure is predominaantly human owing to their omnivorous habits. The eyes are perhaps the most striking facial feature being almost freakishly large and round framed by long eyelashes lending an air of innocense and shyness to the creature.

the torso and limbs conform for the most part to a human standard though there are a few notable expceptions. Tails are leaf shaped and fluffy and all these creatures consider thier tails to be thier most important body part. The fingers are generally blunter and broader than human average topped with vestigal claws though none of this seems to affect their dexterity. The body is covered in soft silken fur that generally is of a pleaseant temperature and smell even when wet. The legs vary from being to being some having almost human appendages while others have limbs resembling their animal forebears, though in all cases the toes are universally larger than proper human ones and are encased in thick tufts of especially soft fur.

One more interesting feature of note is the near lack of any males of the species. Perhaps less than one tenth of the total population is male leading to a raiding lifestyle quite perplexing in a usually gentle race.

REPRODUCTION: While the female of the species certainly do have an appetite for male companionship they seem to be completely devoid of any knowledge of the sexual arts. In fact when I broached the subject with one of the elders of the tribe she immediately took on the demeanor of a blushing handmaiden and could only giggle and lower her eyes. I have yet to observe any pregnant females or even infants among my hosts and therefore must surmise that they either follow a very ritualistic and solitary mating ritual, or that they increase their numbers in a most unnatural way

RELIGION: Most beastmen worship their bestial progenitor and bunny girls are no exception. From the information I gathered all their young are gifted with a plush doll when they are named into the tribe. This figure is a representation of their current Anathema leader. The creatures treat it as the spiritual focus of their lives confiding in it secrets, telling it problems, asking for advice, and even treating it as their best friend.

Another activity of ritual importance to these odd mutants is their communal snuggling. To the lapines nothing is more sacred and fullfilling than being close to another person and sharing in their warmth, smell, and heartbeat. Other activities which lead to relaxing such as massages, hot spring baths, or dancing are also considered to be semi-divine gifts and are taken very seriously.

The grand snuggle is held once a year. During this time all the elders of the various clans get together and meet. There is a great deal of feminine activities such as crying, story telling, conversation over topics as diverse as crop yields, which villages have the cutest boys, the condition of their burrows, and what adventures their god is getting into.

Finally these doe eyed maidens worship first age war machines which they keep hidden except in times of war. Those chosen to be in their precense are bound to the artifacts in a manner similiar to marriage in other cultures. The lapines then present their new god and spouse with presents, exotic foods, heads of their enemies, silks, spices and various other pieces of nonsense

SOCIETY: Lapomorph societal units are based around clans and their burrows. Each clan posseses several burrows which they migrate from depending on a number of factors of signifigance only to them. When a clan occupies their burrows they typically drive away any other sentients or force them to pay tribute to them usually through gifts of plush objects and cute boys.

Bunny women are like most barbarians more given to versatility over specialization in nescecarry tasks. That said there are a number of notable exceptions. Most notable is the three caste system of worker, warrior, and priest

MALES: while making up only a tiny proportion of the population the males of the species are given several important tasks. One is the place of mystics, keepers of knowledge, and the only ones allowed to learn how to read. It is these individuals who maintain what artifacts they posess and provide mystical insight for their tribes. While most craft skills are shared across gender boundaries the males are most known for their knowledge in metal work and the care of first age weapons. They are also more adventurous than females and so are set free to seek out oppurtunities for their clan.

FEMALES: making up the bulk of the populous they fullfill pretty much all of the tasks nescecarry for a tribe to survive. Most of their lives are spent gathering food, hunting, and foraging for raw materials to be used in crafts.

They also make up the entirety of their defense and raiding forces , such as they are, and are the only ones allowed to attune to the precious artifacts they possess.

WARFARE: While such delicate creatures might seem unfit for warfare they have proven quite adept at it when facing the unprepared. For the most part they attack like barbarians everywhere charging at their enemies without any real coordination or thought, which for such weak creatures would usually leave them ripe for destruction. However they posses access to the blasphemous magics of the anathema, and a sizable collection of artifacts, which can even the playing field. However they prefer negotiation to bloodshed, which I find strangely refreshing in uncouth savages.

RAIDING: while content for the most part to isolate themselves from the world they do have a need for items that cannot be produced with their limited technology, so they turn to raiding. In addition to more mundane goods. They raid for many things that seem inconsequential to us. Items like dyes, perfumes, pillows, and silken undergarments. And of course as I have stated they have a singular obsession with young men who they find "cute".

These are not typical raids however. Often a town will wake up to find it surrounded by a horde of these beasts accompanied by one of their war gods. Then the barbarians will send in a negotiator to broker the terms of the town�s tribute, which while odd is usually less devastating than a full-scale attack would be. Terms are usually fair with the town agreeing to pay in exotic goods and giving up their fairest youths for a set period of time, and the beast men leave the place standing.

CLOTHING: Outside their burrows Bunny girls wear little that isn't of practical use having few of the taboos that humans possess about nudity and most human manufactured clothes often don't fit their often alien bodies. Plus their thick fur, and tough footpads protect them from most of nature's minor obstacles. Vests or shorts with multiple pockets, and tie down points are the most often seen.

Inside their burrows they love to dress up in outfits taken as tribute from various villages all over the scavenger lands. Dress fads come and go in the underground warrens faster than even in the Imperial city. Currently gauzy silk garments imported from the south are becoming a particular favorite after their current master expressed a liking for such costumes.

KIVSUNGAI: Finally I must mention their apparent god. Conversation with some of the more open members of their culture has revealed him to be an Anathema. Most perplexing is whether or not this demon is one creature, several different monsters, and whether or not they're all still existing or only one is currently extant.

Fortunately I've been invited to the grand snuggle where a new charm I've been developing for use on the opposite sex will hopefully give me some control over these foul demons given cute faces.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 09:20

MalcolmSheppard: Jun 24, 2012; MATTHEW 7:20

Night10194 posted:

Sometimes, I think one of the key problems with this hobby is the insane idea that the Dungeon Master is a mighty, privileged position of power that lets him rain down poo poo on everyone else. The whole 'I am the DM, I get to choose exactly what happens all the time!' mindset needs to die more than anything else. You're playing a game with your friends, damnit! You're making up poo poo together and trying to make it fun. It's not Great God-King Bob and The 4 Captive Idiots Who Amuse Him.

It's more that when the DM doesn't give up miracles and listen to prayers, it's a problem. I like running games where I have a great deal of authority so I can *help* people. GMing advice is usually terrible at encouraging this, and tells you how to deal with threats to your authority instead.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 10:27

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Plague of Hats posted:

There's plenty of room for writing creatively about weird, gross poo poo without touching yourself about it. However, most�nearly all�of that room is not in RPGs currently and possibly never should be.

Where would there be room? Honest question, because there are shitstorms over it in literature, television, movies, stand up comedy, graphic novels, videogames, some girl's omegaverse fanfiction on tumblr, etc. etc.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 12:58

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I feel like I'm awaiting the day something old and terrible of mine emerges from some crevice on the internet. That being said, if you don't own your freakyness, others will own it for you.

Any chance you could share something of yours, then?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 13:06

Night10194: Feb 13, 2012; We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

MalcolmSheppard posted:

It's more that when the DM doesn't give up miracles and listen to prayers, it's a problem. I like running games where I have a great deal of authority so I can *help* people. GMing advice is usually terrible at encouraging this, and tells you how to deal with threats to your authority instead.

This is also true in a fashion sometimes, but the real problem with the mindset is primarily that it forgets this is a group activity generally undertaken with friends. If your friends want a game where the GM is primarily in charge of the setting/everything outside of their PCs (which mine tend to) and you agree, then that's what should be. If they want to play something where you all come up with large portions of what's going on together, that is what should be. All gaming should be a dialogue between players and GM to find a place where both will be happy.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 15:48

some FUCKING LIAR: Sep 19, 2002; Fallen Rib

Okay, who's responsible?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 16:31

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Bedlamdan posted:

Where would there be room? Honest question, because there are shitstorms over it in literature, television, movies, stand up comedy, graphic novels, videogames, some girl's omegaverse fanfiction on tumblr, etc. etc.

The films of David Cronenberg, the writing of Clive Barker, Naked Lunch (though Burroughs was a creep it's still a great book), It Follows, there are plenty of examples of it being well done. Obviously some of these people were also called disgusting perverts at the time but that's the risk you take.

In any case non-interactive media does make tone a little easier to convey- Cronenberg's films always have this air of scientific detachment, he's just having something play out.

I'm not convinced it can't be done in RPGs, period, but it requires a deft touch, and Exalted just does not have room for that kind of subtlety.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 17:44

Rand Brittain: Mar 25, 2013; "Go on until you're stopped."

Doing it as Charms kind of leaves you in a position where you have to stake out the entire potential space of a particular trick for a splat or the Charm is 'bad'.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 18:05

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Maxwell Lord posted:

The films of David Cronenberg, the writing of Clive Barker, Naked Lunch (though Burroughs was a creep it's still a great book), It Follows, there are plenty of examples of it being well done. Obviously some of these people were also called disgusting perverts at the time but that's the risk you take.

In any case non-interactive media does make tone a little easier to convey- Cronenberg's films always have this air of scientific detachment, he's just having something play out.

I'm not convinced it can't be done in RPGs, period, but it requires a deft touch, and Exalted just does not have room for that kind of subtlety.

I'm not even talking about Exalted, just that a lot of things in any media that dares to push the envelope can expect a lot of wagging fingers and a lot of histrionics from places like salon. Naked lunch got censored to hell and back when it came out, and even hack novelist crap like Game of Thrones warrents lengthy news articles about how They Are Quitting A TV Show.

I'm not saying people are obliged to read poo poo they don't like, but if Naked Lunch came out today and got a deal with HBO, I'd think there'd be a shitstorm.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 18:09

Mendrian: Jan 6, 2013

There is a difference between works of art (fiction, movies) and games, though.

In a work of art, the artist is taking a taboo subject and saying, "this is taboo let's talk about it. Maybe we can say something new about this rarely-discussed topic."

In a game you're saying, "Here is a thing that is taboo. Now go do it and use it and make whatever story you want from it."

That's an important distinction. Inviting players to explore taboo subjects in games isn't wise unless the entire context of the game serves as a wrapper for the taboo subject. Like yes, fetishes can warrant discussion, sexual violence can warrant discussion, but inviting people who are sitting around a table trying to decompress from work to optionally explore those topics through the lens of their buddy Jimmy who makes everybody a hair uncomfortable even at the best of times is a recipe for disaster. You do not need game mechanics to support taboo subjects so directly. I'm fine with mechanics that can be extrapolated to include those subjects but putting the building blocks for that poo poo directly in the game is bad news.

I know there's a whole school of intellectualism that starts as first premise, "aren't we all such prudes that we can't handle controversial subjects in our art?" but that is not what this discussion is about. Hell, I don't really trust game writers to approach these topics with the same sort of reverence as professional writers -- they might, but it's certainly not the norm. You don't need to create tools to explore weird stuff in games and if you do it needs to be, "talk about sex with your friends, the game" from the word go.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 18:41

Serf: May 5, 2011

There's also a difference between attempting to explore and thoughtfully discuss a sensitive topic and exploiting it for kicks. Even when it isn't being actively used in the quest for the Maximum Edge, writers are prone to bungling the whole thing and doing the opposite of what they intended. If history has taught me anything, it's that most writers are not to be trusted with these topics, and I side-eye it when they do try, because more often than not they screw up.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 18:48

Chill la Chill: Jul 2, 2007; Don't lose your gay

If what you're saying is that you can learn more about poo poo by observing and testing and discussing it than by literally gleefully rolling in it then :agreed:

some loving LIAR posted:

Okay, who's responsible?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 18:49

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Mendrian posted:

There is a difference between works of art (fiction, movies) and games, though.

In a work of art, the artist is taking a taboo subject and saying, "this is taboo let's talk about it. Maybe we can say something new about this rarely-discussed topic."

In a game you're saying, "Here is a thing that is taboo. Now go do it and use it and make whatever story you want from it."

That's an important distinction. Inviting players to explore taboo subjects in games isn't wise unless the entire context of the game serves as a wrapper for the taboo subject. Like yes, fetishes can warrant discussion, sexual violence can warrant discussion, but inviting people who are sitting around a table trying to decompress from work to optionally explore those topics through the lens of their buddy Jimmy who makes everybody a hair uncomfortable even at the best of times is a recipe for disaster. You do not need game mechanics to support taboo subjects so directly. I'm fine with mechanics that can be extrapolated to include those subjects but putting the building blocks for that poo poo directly in the game is bad news.

I know there's a whole school of intellectualism that starts as first premise, "aren't we all such prudes that we can't handle controversial subjects in our art?" but that is not what this discussion is about. Hell, I don't really trust game writers to approach these topics with the same sort of reverence as professional writers -- they might, but it's certainly not the norm. You don't need to create tools to explore weird stuff in games and if you do it needs to be, "talk about sex with your friends, the game" from the word go.

Certainly, games being interactive and engaging in taboo topics is really difficult. Not disputing that. It's just, even non-interactive media like books and television handling taboo topics attracts a lot of stern (and too often shallow) condemnation. I'm curious as to what space Plague of Hats is talking about where showing stuff like this is okay, because as best as I can understand it no such space exists.

Serf posted:

There's also a difference between attempting to explore and thoughtfully discuss a sensitive topic and exploiting it for kicks. Even when it isn't being actively used in the quest for the Maximum Edge, writers are prone to bungling the whole thing and doing the opposite of what they intended. If history has taught me anything, it's that most writers are not to be trusted with these topics, and I side-eye it when they do try, because more often than not they screw up.

Yes, but I do think that mishandling taboo topics merely makes one a failure as an artist rather than a failure as a person.

Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jul 8, 2015

# ? Jul 8, 2015 18:54

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Bedlamdan posted:

I'm curious as to what space Plague of Hats is talking about where showing stuff like this is okay, because as best as I can understand it no such space exists.

I think Monsterhearts and Changeling: The Lost (in places) do a pretty good job of grappling with that kind of stuff in a mature, tasteful manner, if that's what you want at your game table. That's all that comes to mind in the RPG scene, and with good reason, since my main point is, per the Charms that set off this derail, discrete PC-building block powers are absolutely just a bad way to go about it. Even when you want to bring that poo poo to your table and do so in a "skeptical respect for old myth" kind of way, churning out a dozen gently caress-the-dog feats fundamentally cheapens it. But, then, that's been a growing, peculiar problem with Exalted's Charms since it was first published.

Outside of RPGs, Maxwell Lord mentioned some good stuff (right off the bat stealing the two examples I had in mind�Cronenberg and Naked Lunch). I think non-fiction is an even "safer" field for this, since you can more directly criticize problems as opposed to typically obscuring things in dramatic relationships and metaphors.

I'm certainly not asserting that anything with Plague of Hats Sensibilities Approved stamped on it would avoid controversy. Nor that any old creep faces an enormous barrier to getting his awful stuff published. I just think there are a number of pitfalls inherent to and almost unique to RPGs that narrow the space for tackling that sort of thing even more so than other venues. I probably shouldn't have used the word "plenty" in my previous post.

But enough non-grog. Have some grog!

Someone suggested RPGnet as a place to go to discuss RPGs posted:

Uh, maybe pass on this one. Just my opinion, but I've had a really difficult few years on that forum and recently just mangled my password & email so that I was forced to lose the account with no hope of retrieval.

A couple of years ago, when Pathfinder started to overtake D&D, the D&D fanboys on that forum got out of hand. Threads on that forum got ugly -- mods would accuse Pathfinder fans of being assholes to the 4th edition guys, while leaving the 4th edition guys alone & free to be assholes to everyone else. I left the forum at that time, but came back a year later when some new mods messaged me to say that the old moderators had been fired and they would be better now.

So, I posted for a while. Then recently I noticed things getting waaaaayyy PC. Like, people getting butthurt over minor stupidities, and mods backing them up. I thought, uh oh, are the mods swinging too far in the opposite direction? Allowing D&D fanboys to be rude to everyone was a problem, so they course-corrected and now everyone has to be insanely magnanimous?
I don't mean PC like, "Hey, you're using the word human being in a derogatory sense. Knock it off." That would be a level of PC-ness that I could understand. I mean, "Hey you used an example that involved a straight man having a relationship with a straight woman. That's not OK. We have homosexual and transgendered people here."

Wait, even mentioning straight relationships is offensive to some mods?

Multiple people have brought it up with the mods, that people are feeling like they're walking on eggshells. The mods are very clear: "Maybe this forum isn't for you." So, OK. I saw the mods write that at one point and was like, "Well if they're flat-out telling people to go away, then yeah, OK, I will be one of those to go away."

Just, you know, FYI. That forum is tumultuous. I think even EnWorld is better at this point.

quote:

quote:
Go into it forewarned that it can be a very negative place

in a prissy, bitchy passive-agressive kind of way, maybe

it's the most heavy-handedly moderated forum I've ever seen and my biggest beef with it is the extent to which you have to suffer people being loudly and flagrantly wrong because putting a nerd in their place is Against The Rules

Boy likes girl. Boy and girl play D&D together. Boy thinks it would be fun to ask girl to prom via their mutually enjoyed hobby.

quote:

Remind him that he isn't getting married, just going to a stupid high school dance that he'll probably forget about in a couple of years. But if he really has to do it this way, here's how to do it: Invite the girl over to play D&D with a regular group of friends, play D&D as you normally would, ask girl to hang back for a second when you're done, say "Hey, (insert name of girl here), do you want to go to prom?", she will likely say yes or no at this point, proceed to not think too much about it until the night of the prom, realize that prom is kind of dumb, graduate from high school, likely never hear from prom girl again, live your life, repeat as necessary.

quote:

Don't do it. Gaming is fantasy, a detachment from real life, even if people play characters very much like themselves. It's all right to make table talk and BS but things like proposals of any kind aren't appropriate. Ask her out and then game, or game and then ask her out - don't try to craft a cute or special adventure with the goal being 'vehicle for a real life approach to resolving a situation'.

quote:

quote:
Don't do it. Gaming is fantasy, a detachment from real life,

As much as I'm against the elaborate setup to ask somebody to prom, this is the real issue. Don't let fear of rejection push you to hide your actual intent behind a game or something that lets you say "oh... it was just imaginary/a joke". Be direct, decisive & unambiguous.

quote:

Came here to say this. don't do it

Prom sucks. Fun sucks. gently caress you!

PS If it's marriage I guess that's different, because much like D&D poo poo's serious.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:23

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

I dunno, maybe I'm the grognard here, but I actually agree with them? Girls in gamer spaces get enough weird attempts to pick them up via in-game stuff that I wouldn't be comfortable being approached that way even by a guy I liked. Just ask her out like you would any other girl. I also wouldn't want to be proposed to via game, but YMMV, I guess?

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:30

Serf: May 5, 2011

Bedlamdan posted:

Yes, but I do think that mishandling taboo topics merely makes one a failure as an artist rather than a failure as a person.

Yeah, they only become a failure as a person when they lash out at getting criticism and proceed to become huge assholes. Depressingly, this is what I see happening most of the time.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:36

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

Antivehicular posted:

I dunno, maybe I'm the grognard here, but I actually agree with them? Girls in gamer spaces get enough weird attempts to pick them up via in-game stuff that I wouldn't be comfortable being approached that way even by a guy I liked. Just ask her out like you would any other girl. I also wouldn't want to be proposed to via game, but YMMV, I guess?

Yeah, I cannot imagine a scenario in which asking someone out is somehow made an in-game event that does not get mega awkward at best.

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:38

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I dunno, that attitude feels to me like veering into the same problem from the other direction: Do not under any circumstances approach a girl near a gaming table, because you will spontaneously grow a Cheeto-dusted neckbeard and involuntarily, loudly compare her cup size to that of Mega Milk Honey Manga XXX's. I agree that "don't be a creep" is something gaming as a whole struggles with, but "a nerd wants to ask another nerd out in a nerdy way" is literally all we know about this dude's situation. And the thread it comes from was posted in the first place because he was concerned with making it sweet and cute instead of awkward and weird.

Maybe I'm just in an optimistic mood, tonight. :shrug:

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:49

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

With all due respect, this is the sort of thing that sounds way cuter if you haven't actually had it happen to you, multiple times, from dudes you're not even interested in. I can see how it sounds fun on paper, but in practice it's basically always incredibly awkward, way more awkward than just being asked out after a game session, or hostile-environment-making if you don't actually like him. I may be biased myself because I've had some bad experiences, and maybe other people have had better experiences, but seriously, having guys trying to express or work out feelings towards you in a hobby space where you're trying to just relax and enjoy is almost always awful.

Antivehicular fucked around with this message at 23:59 on Jul 8, 2015

# ? Jul 8, 2015 23:55

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

Plague of Hats posted:

I dunno, that attitude feels to me like veering into the same problem from the other direction: Do not under any circumstances approach a girl near a gaming table, because you will spontaneously grow a Cheeto-dusted neckbeard and involuntarily, loudly compare her cup size to that of Mega Milk Honey Manga XXX's."

This unironically. Its like russian roulette but with only 5 chambers loaded, there's every chance that it'll work out ok but, ya know :suicide:

# ? Jul 9, 2015 00:29

Bruceski: Aug 21, 2007; The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.

There's a fine line between "cute" and "creepy as hell" (speaking from experience here,, I've crossed that one) and really only the people involved have the perspective to figure out which it is. There are a whole lot of unknowns in their relationship that could skew it.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 00:32

Thesaurasaurus: Feb 15, 2010; "Send in Boxbot!"

Plague of Hats posted:

I dunno, that attitude feels to me like veering into the same problem from the other direction: Do not under any circumstances approach a girl near a gaming table, because you will spontaneously grow a Cheeto-dusted neckbeard and involuntarily, loudly compare her cup size to that of Mega Milk Honey Manga XXX's. I agree that "don't be a creep" is something gaming as a whole struggles with, but "a nerd wants to ask another nerd out in a nerdy way" is literally all we know about this dude's situation. And the thread it comes from was posted in the first place because he was concerned with making it sweet and cute instead of awkward and weird.

Maybe I'm just in an optimistic mood, tonight.

Probably just confirmation bias, since you asked your GF to marry you through gaming and she said yes :v:

Antivehicular posted:

With all due respect, this is the sort of thing that sounds way cuter if you haven't actually had it happen to you, multiple times, from dudes you're not even interested in. I can see how it sounds fun on paper, but in practice it's basically always incredibly awkward, way more awkward than just being asked out after a game session, or hostile-environment-making if you don't actually like him. I may be biased myself because I've had some bad experiences, and maybe other people have had better experiences, but seriously, having guys trying to express or work out feelings towards you in a hobby space where you're trying to just relax and enjoy is almost always awful.

Bruceski posted:

There's a fine line between "cute" and "creepy as hell" (speaking from experience here,, I've crossed that one) and really only the people involved have the perspective to figure out which it is. There are a whole lot of unknowns in their relationship that could skew it.

Yeah, if both parties already have chemistry and it's not an unwelcome imposition, this is no worse than any other way to ask someone out. The problem is that nerds, as a rule, are piss-poor at making this judgment call, so it's better to err on the side of "please don't".

# ? Jul 9, 2015 01:02

Mors Rattus: Oct 25, 2007; FATAL & Friends
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Consider that this person thought he'd get useful advice on his specific situation from an RPG forum. I don't think that's a good sign.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 01:03

ProfessorCirno: Feb 17, 2011; The strongest! The smartest!
The rightest!

Mors Rattus posted:

Consider that this person thought he'd get useful advice on his specific situation from an RPG forum. I don't think that's a good sign.

It makes a real nice comparison to what was posted immediately above it, of course.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 01:08

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

There's a Tangency thread forever burned into my memory, wherein the OP was seeking advice on the ideal way to start greeting women by kissing their hand. Because he wants to be a proper old-fashioned gentleman, you know.

The thread is long lost to their archives crash, but whatever, that guy's probably posting on TheFedoraLounge now. (Or he grew up.)

# ? Jul 9, 2015 01:16

SHY NUDIST GRRL: Feb 15, 2011; Communism will help more white people than anyone else. Any equal measures unfairly provide less to minority populations just because there's less of them. Democracy is truly the tyranny of the mob.

Thesaurasaurus posted:

Probably just confirmation bias, since you asked your GF to marry you through gaming and she said yes

I hear about this typically, and its fun and cute more often because there's no unknown if she's interested in him at all.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 01:29

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Plague of Hats posted:

Outside of RPGs, Maxwell Lord mentioned some good stuff (right off the bat stealing the two examples I had in mind�Cronenberg and Naked Lunch). I think non-fiction is an even "safer" field for this, since you can more directly criticize problems as opposed to typically obscuring things in dramatic relationships and metaphors.

Yeah, but like I said before, Naked Lunch was heavily censored when it first came out, banned in major cities, and some of its publishers even received death threats. There's no medium where it's safe to write something weird or gross, and while it may get some people interested in your work, usually what you're going to end up with is a lot more people angry at you. I mean, we're at the point where a dude's problematic shirt is a matter of national interest. I don't see any situation where a work like Naked Lunch could possibly have the majority of people going "Well, the author is depicting troubling things but it's not right to assume that he approves of it or fetishizes it" today.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 05:13

Pieces of Peace: Jul 8, 2006; Hazardous in small doses.

Bedlamdan posted:

Yeah, but like I said before, Naked Lunch was heavily censored when it first came out, banned in major cities, and some of its publishers even received death threats. There's no medium where it's safe to write something weird or gross, and while it may get some people interested in your work, usually what you're going to end up with is a lot more people angry at you. I mean, we're at the point where a dude's problematic shirt is a matter of national interest. I don't see any situation where a work like Naked Lunch could possibly have the majority of people going "Well, the author is depicting troubling things but it's not right to assume that he approves of it or fetishizes it" today.

It's not so much that literature, film, or fine art are less-critiqued areas to explore strange and twisted ideas, it's that they are inherently less skeevy ones. You know what you're getting into if you have read any information whatsoever about this publicly released book/movie/art exhibit, but if your GM has decided to spring the Army Of Beastman Pubic Crabs Birthed From The Fleshmountain Womb Laboratory on you, you have no loving clue until he's mid-monologue with one hand out of sight.

I think you're extending a view of "this is a fundamental principle of self-expression even when it's ugly or grotesque" into a setting that is intrinsically personal and uncomfortable, which to my mind renders and noble principle pretty immediately moot.

tl;dr: Just because you believe we need art exploring the dark side of the human mind doesn't mean rape camps need a protected place in elfgames, jesus.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 19:50

theironjef: Aug 11, 2009; The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Plague of Hats posted:

I dunno, that attitude feels to me like veering into the same problem from the other direction: Do not under any circumstances approach a girl near a gaming table, because you will spontaneously grow a Cheeto-dusted neckbeard and involuntarily, loudly compare her cup size to that of Mega Milk Honey Manga XXX's. I agree that "don't be a creep" is something gaming as a whole struggles with, but "a nerd wants to ask another nerd out in a nerdy way" is literally all we know about this dude's situation. And the thread it comes from was posted in the first place because he was concerned with making it sweet and cute instead of awkward and weird.

Maybe I'm just in an optimistic mood, tonight.

This would make a great question for afterthought. I'm going to pretend it is one.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 20:40

Serf: May 5, 2011

Let's be honest, nothing in tabletop gaming even approaches the brilliance of Naked Lunch. Pretending that some dude's creepy STD-folk or a womb-factory power is comparable is pretty silly. Very few games approach "mature" themes with anything more than a juvenile sensibility, which is sad but true. And some people just don't want to deal with potentially gross or triggering stuff at their table. If that's what you want in your game, make it clear ahead of time that it will be present.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 20:49

JackMann: Aug 11, 2010; Secure. Contain. Protect.; Fallen Rib

I think the issue is twofold. Part of it comes from the GM expectations earlier; that idea that the GM can just say "This is how we're going to game," and everyone else is going to go along with it. This leads to GMs not stopping and talking to their players to make sure everyone is cool with exploring mature or dark themes first. The second is, as you say, Serf, that most GMs and game designers aren't going to be as good as Burroughs or Cronenberg at working with these themes, which leads to more room to do it badly.

Honestly, though, I think the first is the biggest issue. Even if it's not done as well as Naked Lunch or Eraserhead, it's not that big a problem if everyone at the table is comfortable with what's going on. It's the fact that some GMs take it as license to toss this at the players willy-nilly that's the problem. Too many GMs will just shrug and say, "Well, it's in the setting. I should be able to use it if I want to." That's where the problem with tossing things in becomes an issue. It creates an expectation that these things are normal in the game, and that they don't need to be cleared up beforehand.

Ideally, GMs who wanted to explore these issues would talk it over with the group first, and be willing to walk it back if someone becomes uncomfortable, and the game designers would make it clear that these elements are optional in the setting (or else make it clear that that's what the game is about, and everyone needs to be on board if they want to play it).

Like so many issues involving sex and maturity, it largely comes down to consent.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 21:01

Bedlamdan: Apr 25, 2008

Pieces of Peace posted:

tl;dr: Just because you believe we need art exploring the dark side of the human mind doesn't mean rape camps need a protected place in elfgames, jesus.

Yeah, that's definitely what I've been saying :rolleye:

Look it's probably my own loving fault for getting super pedantic with PoH's post but my point is that even mediums more respectable than elf games can't get away with this poo poo, and I wanted to know what he meant when he said there were in fact places to explore it.

That's about it

Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jul 9, 2015

# ? Jul 9, 2015 21:16

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 02:21

JackMann: Aug 11, 2010; Secure. Contain. Protect.; Fallen Rib

I guess it depends on what you mean by "get away with it." I mean, no medium is going to get away without criticism. Some people aren't going to like it, and that's fine. The fact that they're criticized isn't a reason not to explore those themes there. That's not the reason why a lot of us are against things like the pubic crab men or the elf rape camps. The problem is that the way it's been handled in RPGs has tended to promote certain toxic behaviors that you're not going to find as much in, say, a movie or a book, partly due to the more intimate nature of a tabletop game. You can just put a book down or walk out of a movie with a minimum of awkwardness. Having to say no to someone sitting across the table and staring at you puts it on a whole different level of uncomfortable. Especially if you don't know how they'll react; if they'll be sympathetic or if they'll be mad at you for "ruining" their game.

I don't think these issues should be completely off the table either, but it does need to be handled very delicately in RPGs, and you have to make sure that everyone is comfortable before you proceed.

# ? Jul 9, 2015 21:34

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