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As nice as the sentiment is, many Mizrahim (well, pretty much pick your minority in the region) categorically reject Arab cultural identity and would see a lot of paternalism and cultural imperialism in that statement.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:35
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Kim Jong Il posted:As nice as the sentiment is, many Mizrahim (well, pretty much pick your minority in the region) categorically reject Arab cultural identity and would see a lot of paternalism and cultural imperialism in that statement. You're welcome to post any such reactions you come across.
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Jul 15, 2015 03:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Nobody is going to be developing a nuclear program under invasion. Where are they going to do the testing? The only reason the US could develop the first nuclear bombs in time of war is because the war was happening outside the continental US and they had whole deserts to do whatever testing they wanted to. Sure, the Iranians would have the advantage of knowing that it works, and maybe even have proven plans of construction; but they're still going to need to test before deployment, and good luck doing underground testing when you're under attack. Computer modeling would probably be enough these days, you wouldn't be assured it would work but they could be relatively certain with less sophisticated, proven designs. The fuel has always been the hard part, NK got it right after 1 try and Iran has much better facilities and scientists. e: under invasion no, but I still don't think the testing part would be what prevents them.
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Jul 15, 2015 05:08
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I really hope this deal can ensure the development of a secular Iranian state in the near future and a potential Islamic Secular Ally for the US in the Middle East. I believe if Iran can survive the bombardment by the Arabians, they have a great future. We threw our best one away with Iraq thanks to Bush's idiocy. And Turkey is looking like it may be headed away from that as well.
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Jul 15, 2015 05:24
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You know what ticks me off most about Gaza coverage? Even more than the outright propaganda and racism? The goddamn animal stories. Whether it's the gruesome tales of zoos have turned to taxidermy after war and starvation killed most of their exhibits, or the heartwarming feel-good stories of adorable fuzzy creatures that were "rescued" from war-torn Gaza and miserable refugee camp life, it frustrates the hell of me seeing that stuff come up in the news more often than the critical state of Gaza's water supply or the near-total lack of international funding for Gaza reconstruction. Then again, who can't sympathize with articles about Gaza's severe shortage of grand pianos?
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Jul 15, 2015 16:32
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If this is the Iran thread also: some news report was talking about how lifting of sanctions could cripple Iran's economy further, by flooding it with cheap imported goods, leading to widespread unemployment
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Jul 15, 2015 17:25
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:If this is the Iran thread also: some news report was talking about how lifting of sanctions could cripple Iran's economy further, by flooding it with cheap imported goods, leading to widespread unemployment Only if they hold a complete blind eye to importing and blow the gates wide open to outside products. But I digress: You want the Middle East thread of Despair.
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Jul 15, 2015 19:12
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:If this is the Iran thread also: some news report was talking about how lifting of sanctions could cripple Iran's economy further, by flooding it with cheap imported goods, leading to widespread unemployment Iran still controls its own trade policy, it has complete power over the price and volume of imported goods
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Jul 15, 2015 19:53
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Kim Jong Il posted:As nice as the sentiment is, many Mizrahim (well, pretty much pick your minority in the region) categorically reject Arab cultural identity and would see a lot of paternalism and cultural imperialism in that statement. I still love the One True (israeli) Hummus debacle there was at one point in GWS. I seem to remember the poster basically denying that Hummus was a much wider middle eastern and north african thing as well as modern Israeli. Also: http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/06/05/sick-beats-and-sykes-picot-a-wa-band-yemen-israel-middle-east-music/ I make no claims about knowing anything about accuracy of anything in this article, still: Mizrahi music in Yemeni and the wider history of Mizrahim music in the 20th century. Actually if anyone knows more I'd be interested. NLJP fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 20:51
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Main Paineframe posted:I mentioned invasion - presumably, given the aforementioned clusterfuck, it'd be possible for Iran to hold the invaders off for the few months Obama says Iran's breakout ability should take. No, it wouldn't. If we're being wildly optimistic Iran might be able to continue progress towards producing a bomb for a week. Although in a realistic scenario involving a full scale US invasion that time period would likely be less than 72 hours. Main Paineframe posted:You know what ticks me off most about Gaza coverage? Even more than the outright propaganda and racism? The goddamn animal stories. Whether it's the gruesome tales of zoos have turned to taxidermy after war and starvation killed most of their exhibits, or the heartwarming feel-good stories of adorable fuzzy creatures that were "rescued" from war-torn Gaza and miserable refugee camp life, it frustrates the hell of me seeing that stuff come up in the news more often than the critical state of Gaza's water supply or the near-total lack of international funding for Gaza reconstruction. Then again, who can't sympathize with articles about Gaza's severe shortage of grand pianos? The thing about human interest stories about Gaza is that they're only going to appeal to those who are interested in Gazans as humans, not as agencyless noble savage/helpless puppy hybrids who sit around waiting the some blood-thirsty Zionist beast to come slaughter them. I, on the other hand, prefer coverage of Gaza that presents Gazans as something other than one-dimensional archetypes.
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Jul 16, 2015 11:08
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The Insect Court posted:The thing about human interest stories about Gaza is that they're only going to appeal to those who are interested in Gazans as humans, not as agencyless noble savage/helpless puppy hybrids who sit around waiting the some blood-thirsty Zionist beast to come slaughter them. I, on the other hand, prefer coverage of Gaza that presents Gazans as something other than one-dimensional archetypes. You got any examples you might like to share?
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Jul 16, 2015 17:56
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Wouldn't the strawman you just described be interested in human interest stories about the hardships facing Gaza because it would reinforce their worldview of the helpless noble savages and everything they reasonlessly endure? Surely the appropriate strawman would be the bloodthirsty islamophobe or imperialist zionist who sees all Palestinians as terrorists and doesn't care to hear about the troubles they brought down upon themselves?
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Jul 17, 2015 01:26
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You got any examples you might like to share? Apparently not.
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Jul 17, 2015 02:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You got any examples you might like to share? How about for starters, the ones Main Paineframe was so disgusted by? It's not as if they're sympathetic portrayals of Israelis, or negative ones of Palestinians. But they apparently violate the convention that any and all news about the Palestinian territories need to be about Israeli atrocities enacted against Palestinian innocents, with morally reprobate Israelis as the subject and Palestinians as the object. fool_of_sound posted:Apparently not. Sorry, my shift as a hasbara drone on the hovering Zionist mind-control blimp got cut and I can no longer monitor this thread 24/7 for my nefarious masters. Thanks for your contribution, though.
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Jul 18, 2015 01:15
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NLJP posted:I still love the One True (israeli) Hummus debacle there was at one point in GWS. I seem to remember the poster basically denying that Hummus was a much wider middle eastern and north african thing as well as modern Israeli. I must know more.
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Jul 18, 2015 02:30
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The Insect Court posted:How about for starters, the ones Main Paineframe was so disgusted by? It's not as if they're sympathetic portrayals of Israelis, or negative ones of Palestinians. But they apparently violate the convention that any and all news about the Palestinian territories need to be about Israeli atrocities enacted against Palestinian innocents, with morally reprobate Israelis as the subject and Palestinians as the object. Hey it would be cool if you actually like, answered the question. When you pretend to not get it or exaggerate someone's position it doesn't really help any point you were trying to make.
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Jul 18, 2015 04:31
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Angry Boat posted:I must know more. There was a hummus war. Basically anything that's delicious from the Middle East, Israel attempts to claim is an Israeli creation that the noble people of Israel invented and introduced to the savage hordes around them. http://www.mdabaie.com/comics/hummuswars2.html
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Jul 18, 2015 05:04
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Neo Rasa posted:There was a hummus war. Basically anything that's delicious from the Middle East, Israel attempts to claim is an Israeli creation that the noble people of Israel invented and introduced to the savage hordes around them. We must liberate Gaza from the clutches of hummus.
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Jul 18, 2015 05:13
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On the subject of articles that are worth reading, here's a new one from Vanity Fair about the Charlie Hebdo/Hyper Cacher killings and how the situation for Jews in France has deteriorated.
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Jul 18, 2015 10:32
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That is definitely a disgrace. I had no idea it has got that bad. But it's not going to change until the corrosive influence that the Gulf countries wield over Islam abroad is combated against. If money from the most anti-semitic region in the world builds the mosques and preachers from their Wahhabist institutes fill the pulpits, what do people think that the observant young Muslims are going to learn? That Israel and Jews are the same, that all Jews are Zionists. There are going to be more attacks until French mosques - I guess until most mosques - are cleaned from extremist influence. Wahhabism is basically a global movement of hate, and due to where it hails from against Jews in particular. France in particular also has the problem of mosques + banlieues. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 11:41
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The Insect Court posted:On the subject of articles that are worth reading, here's a new one from Vanity Fair about the Charlie Hebdo/Hyper Cacher killings and how the situation for Jews in France has deteriorated. Jesus Christ I didn't realize it was getting that bad.
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Jul 18, 2015 11:54
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DarkCrawler posted:That is definitely a disgrace. I had no idea it has got that bad. But it's not going to change until the corrosive influence that the Gulf countries wield over Islam abroad is combated against. If money from the most anti-semitic region in the world builds the mosques and preachers from their Wahhabist institutes fill the pulpits, what do people think that the observant young Muslims are going to learn? That Israel and Jews are the same, that all Jews are Zionists. There are going to be more attacks until French mosques - I guess until most mosques - are cleaned from extremist influence. Wahhabism is basically a global movement of hate, and due to where it hails from against Jews in particular. I specifically mentioned this fear previously (and being accused of saying jews create their own persecution). Israel attempting to link itself to jews on a global scale while being blatantly hostile to a an ethnicity both inside and outside their borders is explicitly dangerous to the jewish diaspora. And I fear that this will only worsen as Israel becomes more hardline right-wing in its practices, more arabs make the short logical leap from "anti-israel is antisemitism = the jews are responsible for Israel's hate", and jews with experiences with hostile arab citizens cements Israel's apartheid state. It's a sad situation that is entirely the result of realpolitik bullshit. Israel and Palestine are/were beautiful countries with a rich culture involving both Islam and Judaism, and it's depressing to see that history suppressed, bombed to rubble, washed of ones influence, and exploited for racial hate. Just to cut off a dishonest debate before it starts: Yes, I condemn these attacks and antisemitism, and I do not believe the vast majority of jews are responsible for this persecution. I consider it entirely the creation of a troublesome country selling itself as representative of an entire ethnicity and religion. Like I posted previously, equating genuine issues with israel as antisemitism opens the door for bigots to hide amongst the good-natured.
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Jul 18, 2015 13:29
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There was antisemitism on european soil long before the nakba, despite numerous attempts to depict the zionist movement as a movement borne out of simple colonialist ambitions it was conceived as a solution to anti-semitism in europe, as the forefathers of zionism have been proven correct in their fears concerning the ultimate results of european antisemitism it is extremely disingenuous to keep pretending it is the Israel's self-definition as a jewish state that fuels the fires of anti-semitism when the 'ovens of auschwitz' have been burning long before 1948 and have arguably never been extinguished (credit to Michael Oren). This forum takes for granted that the creation of Israel has been proven to be a 'catastrophical failure' as far as preserving the Jewish nation and protecting its people is concerned, and since you take that for granted you also take for granted that fears of anti-semitism have been unfounded prior to Israel coming along and forcing the hands of muslims everywhere to hate Jews. Since these assumptions are all entirely bullshit you should perhaps attempt to understand that constantly harping about 'Israel as the main source for antisemitism' is about as crass as harping on about terrorism being the root of Islamophobia, both are fallacies no true 'progressive' should ever back, it is perfectly feasible to criticize Israel, it's policies and heck even call for it's destruction in a fiery inferno without applying the same logic to Jews abroad, as proof I present the Islamic Republic of Iran that calls for the downfall of the Israeli regime yet protects the religious and civil rights of its on jewish citizenry. So in fact perhaps an overwhelming percentage of the anti-semites that have latched themselves to the palestinian liberation movements are simply anti-semites? Perhaps conflating Israel with Judaism comes easy to them on account of Israel being a country with an overwhelming jewish majority? Perhaps it is not necessary to excuse the 'short logical leaps' of bigots? Just throwing this out there.
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Jul 18, 2015 13:46
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I'm not attempting to excuse them. Israel was created in the first place (however problematic the creation was) specifically because of antisemitism, both within germany and within countries unwilling to take jewish refugees. And as I said, this issue has been readily exploited by bigots who already hated jews long before zionism gave them a veneer of authenticity. People should know better than to take that logical leap, and it certainly shouldn't be condoned. At the same time it's unproductive towards impeding antisemitism to ignore a country billing itself as The Jewish State that only shows up in the news to bomb an impoverished strip of arabs, sneak viruses into arab nuclear facilities, and warn of the arab "population time bomb". The majority of european countries have or continue to struggle with bigotry of all shades, with jews bearing a large part of the scorn, that doesn't mean we cannot acknowledge exacerbating factors, so long as we avoid blaming european jews for the actions of a country tney have never seen, let alone step foot on. As I said before, understanding is not condoning, and in fact is often the first step towards dismantling bigoted notions. It is bad that antisemitism exists, and people who practice antisemitism are bad people irregardless of how they found themselves practicing it. E: fears of antisemitism are well-founded, they wouldn't be exploitable if they weren't. I have no issue with those who fear its resurgence. I have every issue with those in power with the ability to exploit these fears. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 14:02 on Jul 18, 2015 |
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Jul 18, 2015 13:57
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eSports Chaebol posted:Jesus Christ I didn't realize it was getting that bad. This is why Israel exists, and why Israel must continue to exist: for when there is antisemitism which others refuse to do anything about, Israel will stand firm.
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Jul 18, 2015 14:04
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If we plot on a graph the number of antisemitic crimes in Europe on one line, and the numbers of Israeli strikes against Palestinians on another, can we really form the conclusion that antisemitism in Europe nowadays is predominantly the same as the one in the 1930s?
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Jul 18, 2015 15:53
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eSports Chaebol posted:Jesus Christ I didn't realize it was getting that bad. it's gotten worse but this looks like a fairly sensationalist article. a good indication of that is how the LDJ is portrayed in it
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Jul 18, 2015 15:55
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which is not to trivialise anything - antisemitism is a clear and present problem, and even if it weren't the simple perception of french jews that they are not safe in france would be an indication that something is very wrong. it's just good to keep a perspective on these things
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Jul 18, 2015 15:57
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Cat Mattress posted:If we plot on a graph the number of antisemitic crimes in Europe on one line, and the numbers of Israeli strikes against Palestinians on another, can we really form the conclusion that antisemitism in Europe nowadays is predominantly the same as the one in the 1930s? Why are you bringing zionism into a discussion of European antisemitism, apart from anti-zionism being the gateway to antisemitism? Your post reads as if you mean to dogwhistle that antisemitism in Europe is the fault of Israel, rather than the fault of recent waves of antisemites to France and antisemites becoming a large enough voting bloc that both left and right in France's political circles now engage in antisemitic acts to win votes.
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Jul 18, 2015 16:08
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V. Illych L. posted:it's gotten worse but this looks like a fairly sensationalist article. a good indication of that is how the LDJ is portrayed in it One tenth of all Jews in France have considered leaving in one year and a quarter of them will do so. At this pace France will be Judenfrei in a generation, maybe less. There's no need to sensationalize any of that, just the raw anecdotes devoid of context are plenty. gently caress me, there are multiple pogroms a year going on in France right now and the police are under orders to let them happen to diffuse the situation lololol gg.
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Jul 18, 2015 16:41
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Adar posted:One tenth of all Jews in France have considered leaving in one year and a quarter of them will do so. At this pace France will be Judenfrei in a generation, maybe less. There's no need to sensationalize any of that, just the raw anecdotes devoid of context are plenty. gently caress me, there are multiple pogroms a year going on in France right now and the police are under orders to let them happen to diffuse the situation lololol gg. "raw anecdotes devoid of context" is a terrible way to discuss anything at all beyond the level of "this is a problem". adopting the rhetoric of nazi germany to this situation is also grossly mischaracterising it, i think, and is entirely unhelpful if one wishes to understand the issue at hand
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Jul 18, 2015 16:47
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Neurolimal posted:I'm not attempting to excuse them. Israel was created in the first place (however problematic the creation was) specifically because of antisemitism, both within germany and within countries unwilling to take jewish refugees. And as I said, this issue has been readily exploited by bigots who already hated jews long before zionism gave them a veneer of authenticity. Being as clear as I can, Netanyahu and the antisemites in these protests are both trying to conflate Jews with Israel precisely because they both think it will flush out the thus far unaffiliated Jews neutral or hostile to Israel, force them to pick a side and get out since at the end of the day there will only be one side for them to pick. And it's sure as gently caress working, because you see while antisemitism is bad it's unproductive to ignore Israel doing bad things while discussing it.
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Jul 18, 2015 16:48
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Hamas and ISIS flags and mock rockets at explicitly anti-Semitic pro-Palestinian riots are some of the many reasons Israel is never going to lose the support of the only ally that really matters, not in the post 9/11 world. The classic pairing is "al mout li Amrika, al mout li Israel."
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Jul 18, 2015 16:50
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yeah one element of this whole tragic mess is the return in force of that old "jews have a double loyalty" canard, where the weird and diffuse "jewish internationalist cabal" has been replaced by israel. conservative israeli authorities, of course, are entirely happy with this as it helps them maintain their existential objective, i.e. maintaining israel as a jewish state
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Jul 18, 2015 16:50
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V. Illych L. posted:yeah one element of this whole tragic mess is the return in force of that old "jews have a double loyalty" canard, where the weird and diffuse "jewish internationalist cabal" has been replaced by israel. conservative israeli authorities, of course, are entirely happy with this as it helps them maintain their existential objective, i.e. maintaining israel as a jewish state In one sentence, you denounce antisemitism, yet in the next you utter a proto-antisemitic viewpoint. Why would Jews anywhere in the world be ok with antisemitism? To view Israeli Jews as accepting of antisemitism so long as it can be used for their own purposes is an antisemitic viewpoint fully in-line with the 'zionist puppetmasters' tropes of antisemitism.
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Jul 18, 2015 17:02
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My Imaginary GF posted:In one sentence, you denounce antisemitism, yet in the next you utter a proto-antisemitic viewpoint. Why would Jews anywhere in the world be ok with antisemitism? To view Israeli Jews as accepting of antisemitism so long as it can be used for their own purposes is an antisemitic viewpoint fully in-line with the 'zionist puppetmasters' tropes of antisemitism. conservative israelis want jews to immigrate to israel. it is thus, from a cynical point of view, totally ok with them if jews elsewhere have it poo poo, making said jews more likely to go to israel
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Jul 18, 2015 17:05
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i mean, if anyone itt is making a case for antisemitism it's you, migf
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Jul 18, 2015 17:06
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Another thing I'm coming around on is MIGF's trolling because the sheer persistence is enough to get people to engage him 100% of the time
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Jul 18, 2015 17:10
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V. Illych L. posted:conservative israelis want jews to immigrate to israel. it is thus, from a cynical point of view, totally ok with them if jews elsewhere have it poo poo, making said jews more likely to go to israel Tell me this: Why do conservative Jews in Israel want French Jews to immigrate?
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Jul 18, 2015 17:13
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Adar posted:Another thing I'm coming around on is MIGF's trolling because the sheer persistence is enough to get people to engage him 100% of the time migf manages to bring a particular brand of aggressive ignorance into any discussion which is both pernicious, vile and irritating. knocking him down is a sort of duty, because to a casual observer some of his gibberish may seem reasonably founded and the thread cowardly for not confronting his points My Imaginary GF posted:Tell me this: Why do conservative Jews in Israel want French Jews to immigrate? because for israeli domestic purposes it is a national imperative to maintain a jewish majority in israel, to legitimise israel's status as a jewish state, which is the basis of their politics
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Jul 18, 2015 17:14
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