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Serf posted:I unironically agree with #NotAllKobolds guy. In D&D for sure. I was tempted to post similar complaints about Unleashed here as grog. The races have a very clear distinction between cultures in that are reflected in career options. But with races as varied and vague as is in D&D its clumsy like all its mechanics
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Jul 15, 2015 17:13
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gradenko_2000 posted:And finally these last three:
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Jul 15, 2015 17:44
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Mors Rattus posted:Shannon owns rpg.net iirc and he is probably doing okay here. I think he "only" works for Skotos, but is the main tech and admin of RPGnet. The complaint there is pretty disingenuous anyway. If I remember right, the OSR gets a brief sidebar, even though the bulk of these books were likely being written around 2012, when there was barely anything past-tense noteworthy at all about the OSR. They got more than I would have expected. It's like complaining a history book published in 2015 doesn't extensively cover something from November 2014.
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Jul 15, 2015 18:11
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Also just to clarify, Shannon is a him. People get that mixed up a lot.
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Jul 15, 2015 18:26
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Just for the record, I'm not on the side of "Y NO OSR!?" guy, but do think that, "Why isn't [bit of the hobby I'm interested in] covered in your work on the history of the hobby?" is a valid question, and that Shannon's answer, that it's too close to the present to be able to say what parts of it are relevant in a historical context yet, is good answer.
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Jul 15, 2015 18:28
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It's not inherently a bogus question, but the way it was worded, and the fact it was crossposted on therpgsite, makes me suspicious of the asker's motives.
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Jul 15, 2015 19:27
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inklesspen posted:It's not inherently a bogus question, but the way it was worded, and the fact it was crossposted on therpgsite, makes me suspicious of the asker's motives. Yes, that's why I quoted it for the amusement of grogs.txt not because I thought the asker was just an innocent little flower.
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Jul 15, 2015 19:48
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gradenko_2000 posted:I'm actually pretty miffed that the guy threw in Qelong in with the rest of that. Why? Raggi published it, it's meant to be used with Lamentations, it's part of the OSR. Being by Kenneth Hite doesn't magically make it not.
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Jul 15, 2015 20:04
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Lightning Lord posted:Why? Raggi published it, it's meant to be used with Lamentations, it's part of the OSR. Being by Kenneth Hite doesn't magically make it not. I meant in the sense that I think it's a far better product than the others, not that it's not part of the OSR.
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Jul 15, 2015 20:17
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I agree that it's dumb to just gloss over the OSR (looks like Appelcline is just waiting to see what's left when the dust settles though) but I also am 100% certain that anything other than an exhaustive index of every blog and product that could be considered as such wouldn't be enough for this guy.
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Jul 15, 2015 20:22
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I also agree with the kobold guy to be fair, especially if it's a consistently held position. But then I'm also assuming D&D. Conversely, a setting where Kobolds are just innately born knowing how to make traps, like Orks are meant to know how to make hot rods and guns, would be pretty funny.
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Jul 15, 2015 20:54
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Centuries later, dedicated kobold scientists would disprove the existence of the "trap gene" and dispel generations of stereotypes and misconception.
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Jul 15, 2015 21:08
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Serf posted:Centuries later, dedicated kobold scientists would disprove the existence of the "trap gene" and dispel generations of stereotypes and misconception. I was more picturing tiny kobold babies making trap-playforts out of pillows and stuff, rather than centuries of systemic oppression and genocide.
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Jul 15, 2015 21:22
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spectralent posted:I was more picturing tiny kobold babies making trap-playforts out of pillows and stuff, rather than centuries of systemic oppression and genocide. It's cool, I'm picturing kobolds in little labcoats looking into tiny microscopes and nodding sagely as they mark things on their clipboards.
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Jul 15, 2015 21:27
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Kobolds find baby human in the woods, adopt him and teach him the way of the trapmaker; it's extra tough because he grows way too big for their equipment way too fast, but his adoptive parents press on and give him personalized huge tools when he becomes an adult (which the kobolds believe is at age 15). When a scouting band of the invading human army goes into the kobold forest, whole trees fall on them as they advance. The kobold adoptive parents cry tears of joy. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 21:34
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That's why I like alternate racial features to represent differences in upbringing. Like, maybe the bluescale kobold tribe that does all the trading with humans and goblins gets bonuses to appraise and diplomacy instead.
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Jul 15, 2015 21:45
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paradoxGentleman posted:Kobolds find baby human in the woods, adopt him and teach him the way of the trapmaker; it's extra tough because he grows way too big for their equipment way too fast, but his adoptive parents press on and give him personalized huge tools when he becomes an adult (which the kobolds believe is at age 15). So what you're saying is someone needs to run a D&D game about Kobold Simo Häyhä? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4 Edit: or really just Pathfinder but in D&D.
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Jul 15, 2015 21:46
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To keep calling them "racial" bonuses (ugh), you should use them to model things that are inherent to the biology of that species. Dwarves getting darkvision can be a racial bonus, sure, that's just something their eyes do. Bug-people should get the Ambidextrous feat or no penalties to dual-wielding or whatever because they have extra arms. But skill bonuses seem a little weird. Actually, does anyone have that post where the dude tries to give Renaissance European nations "racial" bonuses and ended up giving Italians a +2 to Poisons or something? That's sorta what this feels like.
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Jul 15, 2015 21:51
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gradenko_2000 posted:
I've thought about this recently with a campaign I'm planning that's based on Arthurian legend. I want the players to all be defenders of Camelot, which is obviously a human state, so I thought about limiting the number of wacky character races and encouraging people to play human PCs. But then I thought, why can't Camelot be a cosmopolitan melting pot of fantasy races? The fact is that the purity of tone in my campaign world is only going to last until the first dick joke anyway.
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Jul 15, 2015 21:59
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Serf posted:To keep calling them "racial" bonuses (ugh), you should use them to model things that are inherent to the biology of that species. Dwarves getting darkvision can be a racial bonus, sure, that's just something their eyes do. Bug-people should get the Ambidextrous feat or no penalties to dual-wielding or whatever because they have extra arms. But skill bonuses seem a little weird. The Italian race are the closest mankind has to Orcs.
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Jul 15, 2015 22:01
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:It's funny because to come at this from another angle I honestly felt that Shannon Appelcine poo poo all over D&D 4e in the book. It does not get Nice Quotes. In the section where he cites the Received Wisdom on 4e as reason for/proof of its failure, one of the failings he cites is the fact that 4e abandoned long-established D&D traditions dating back to the game's foundation... but one of the very first specific examples that he gives for such a traditional system is "skill points", a mechanic that was only present in one edition of the game.
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Jul 15, 2015 22:03
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gtrmp posted:In the section where he cites the Received Wisdom on 4e as reason for/proof of its failure, one of the failings he cites is the fact that 4e abandoned long-established D&D traditions dating back to the game's foundation... but one of the very first specific examples that he gives for such a traditional system is "skill points", a mechanic that was only present in one edition of the game. Two, if you squint a bit. In AD&D 2e, you could actually assign multiple proficiency slots to a single proficiency, but there was very little reason to do so. Your first point took you from Ability/2 to Ability, and each point afterward was a +1. Regardless, dumb.
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Jul 15, 2015 22:34
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I'm saying that I think there's room for the occasional joke setting where you play game mechanics completely straight and come up with stuff like toddlers who can craft masterwork swords, not that I think scientific racism is objectively true and the Italian nation is inherently bent towards assassination, dudes. For 95% of D&D I think decoupling cultural assumptions from the standard fantasy races would be better (fantasycraft does this pretty well by having race and... Background, I think? Either way, it serves as your "station of upbringing" modifier).
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Jul 15, 2015 22:46
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Serf posted:To keep calling them "racial" bonuses (ugh), you should use them to model things that are inherent to the biology of that species. Dwarves getting darkvision can be a racial bonus, sure, that's just something their eyes do. Bug-people should get the Ambidextrous feat or no penalties to dual-wielding or whatever because they have extra arms. But skill bonuses seem a little weird.
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Jul 15, 2015 22:57
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Not entirely removed - there's still racial trait limits, just not ethnic ones. Some of them are really dumb and annoying, like there being intelligence limits on trollkin, who are not actually dumber than humans.
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Jul 15, 2015 22:59
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Mors Rattus posted:Not entirely removed - there's still racial trait limits, just not ethnic ones. Some of them are really dumb and annoying, like there being intelligence limits on trollkin, who are not actually dumber than humans.
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Jul 15, 2015 23:02
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Sailor Viy posted:I've thought about this recently with a campaign I'm planning that's based on Arthurian legend. I want the players to all be defenders of Camelot, which is obviously a human state, so I thought about limiting the number of wacky character races and encouraging people to play human PCs. But then I thought, why can't Camelot be a cosmopolitan melting pot of fantasy races? The fact is that the purity of tone in my campaign world is only going to last until the first dick joke anyway. Serious Question: Why not use Pendragon? It is an excellent game and does exactly this. "Because I want players to be wizards n' poo poo" is a perfectly fine answer.
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Jul 16, 2015 03:34
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quote:I also insist on running with stuff from the core books only. This is the first campaign for half of my group, and I wanted things to be simple without the bullshit Half-dragon/Half-Warforged Soulknife6/Shield Knight4/Black Warden4 style of characters. quote:[5e] I don't allow Druids at my table. I RARELY see a non-cliche Druid and I'm tired of dealing with the "Parents died, raised in forest" bullshit. Until I banned the Druid one of the PCs only played a Druid or multi-classed as a Druid. It got really tired, really fast. quote:Soft ban on good drow. If you can convince me you're willing to play one with all of the baggage that entails, I'll allow it. No one has yet. quote:Centaurs.
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Jul 16, 2015 09:22
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Oh no, not a +35 to Jump checks
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Jul 16, 2015 09:40
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The gradual increase in crazyness is a touch of class, gradenko.
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Jul 16, 2015 09:42
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I'm just imagining a GM gradually getting increasingly frustrated as all his plans are repeatedly foiled by a jumping centaur and it's pretty great. Just this super-excited centaur bouncing all over the place while the GM gets red in the face, crumpling up yet another set of notes that took him hours to write, all because of that cursed +35 to Jump checks, you like centaurs huh, well I'LL SHOW YOU
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Jul 16, 2015 09:47
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Hey guys! *BOING* Check it out guys! *BOING* Check out what I can do! *BOING* Are you watching? *BOING* Oh my god, Debbie, we are trying to have a serious game here.
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Jul 16, 2015 09:50
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genocide of a race because they jump too high is a little harsh, i think
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Jul 16, 2015 09:51
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Kai Tave posted:I'm just imagining a GM gradually getting increasingly frustrated as all his plans are repeatedly foiled by a jumping centaur and it's pretty great. Just this super-excited centaur bouncing all over the place while the GM gets red in the face, crumpling up yet another set of notes that took him hours to write, all because of that cursed +35 to Jump checks, you like centaurs huh, well I'LL SHOW YOU Frankly, the super-jumping solves the one major logistical problem that came up in the one game I was in with a centaur PC: how the hell do they do ladders? It's more amusing to imagine them doing sweet-rear end straight vertical jumps than our actual solution, "just don't think about the ladder-horse."
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Jul 16, 2015 09:59
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One of the cool things I found with 3.5-clone Legend RPG is that they take 3.5's "there is a deterministic DC for any given action" and just run with it:quote:Jumping: Once per [Round], you may make an Acrobatics skill check to jump over an obstacle or jump high into the air. Your Balance checks can also be high enough to let you walk on falling snowflakes, or your Burglary checks can get high enough to let you bypass a modern-day biometrics scanner.
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Jul 16, 2015 10:08
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Kai Tave posted:Oh no, not a +35 to Jump checks No but you see, this centaur can leap up to thirteen feet high. THIRTEEN feet! And they can do that ALL DAY LONG. And the poor neglected Wizard with Overland Flight can merely fly to any distance for you know what I'll get back to you on this one...
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Jul 16, 2015 10:50
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Serf posted:Spreading the person's name around to incite harassment or to draw down the ire of certain people listed in the post who could rile up their fans? Funny thing is, I believe Jez Gordon when he says harassment wasn't his goal (because I'm some kind of trusting dullard), and it still managed to do just that. https://plus.google.com/+JezGordon/posts/3SGQMw5MCB1 Because of course it did.
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Jul 16, 2015 11:02
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Wow, Zak S complaining about harrasment. Talk about irony. Also: quote:Shannon Appelcline Has openly committed harassment & libel and openly employs people who've harassed the women in my game group & I. Volunteers at RPGnet include Kai Tave, Paul Matijevic / Paul Ettin (both admitted Something Awful trolls, one of whom openly promoted a lie about rape "for giggles"), and Stephen Lea Sheppard. paradoxGentleman fucked around with this message at 11:23 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 11:19
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After reading that G+ thread I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that Gordon wanted Appelcline to get harassed. I'm sorry, but tagging someone in a complaint about their work isn't harassment, stealth or otherwise, even if you don't agree with their criticism, or if you think it's shitheaded. Now if Appelcline starts talking about how people are sending him threats or weirdo sea lioning, then maybe we have something. That being said between the "Oh my stars Lamentations was left out!" tone (even if I liked LotFP I'd agree) and someone using "Big Purple" it's prime grogs.txt fodder. Lightning Lord fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 11:20
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Yeah, it's kind of hard for me to understand because I am not familiar with what exactly they are talking about here (the only thing I get is that Appelcline apparently made some sort of history of something called OSR and didn't add the contributions of certain persons) but my impression is that the guy just wanted to get some perspective from different sources. Zak's danger and effect on game communities isn't quite as obvious as you make it out to be.
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Jul 16, 2015 11:30
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