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The Insect Court posted:
Well using your logic I can say no one should debate you because you're clearly anti Palestinian based on how your posts are written.
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Jul 19, 2015 06:37
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"Israel has ordered a six-month closure of Palestine 48, a new Palestinian television channel funded by the Palestinian Authority and catering to Palestinian citizens of Israel. [...] Those behind the project were "wolves in sheep's clothing," said Communications Ministry spokesperson Yechiel Shavi, adding that Palestinians would never achieve statehood, but "can continue to dream forever" of realising it." Such a weird thing to say unprovoked...
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Jul 19, 2015 08:53
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My Imaginary GF posted:How is Herodotus known for his historical inaccuracy? I'd like to see a citation for that. As much as he can be seriously annoying I'd like to congratulate MIGF for a return to form in his trolling after a past severely low effort week.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:05
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Svartvit posted:"Israel has ordered a six-month closure of Palestine 48, a new Palestinian television channel funded by the Palestinian Authority and catering to Palestinian citizens of Israel. [...] Those behind the project were "wolves in sheep's clothing," said Communications Ministry spokesperson Yechiel Shavi, adding that Palestinians would never achieve statehood, but "can continue to dream forever" of realising it." This reminds me of Russia shutting down that Crimean Tatar TV.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:20
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MrNemo posted:As much as he can be seriously annoying I'd like to congratulate MIGF for a return to form in his trolling after a past severely low effort week. He's been put on probation over and over by the conglomerate of petty wardens known collectively as the D&D moderators.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:29
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I don't even think what migf does is trolling. Like if he just made one really egregious post that set off like a 5-6 page derail that would be a troll. This is more like lowkey harrassment. I was reading an article on haaretz about how in response to a rocket landing in open ground that was fired from the strip the IAF launched a retaliatory strike at gaza's "terrorist infrastructure". Which of course implies there is any infrastructure left.
Ultramega fucked around with this message at 09:38 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 09:33
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MIGF isn't trolling, if you think MIGF is trolling then you are using an uselessly vague definition of the word. MIGF is pointing out the many flaws and bell-whistle anti-semitism in arguments here so lurkers who read these threads aren't confronted with wall-to-wall anti-semitism and anti-israel opinions. God knows nothing can change the opinions of some of the people in this thread but it's important to confront opinions that are a hop and a step away from full blown
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Jul 19, 2015 09:38
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I love when people try to defend MIGF because they agree with his supposed position. His posts are one part regurgitated propaganda and two parts bizarre improv in an attempt to defend said propaganda.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:09
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You know what's worse then responding to MIGF? loving talking about MIGF, Jesus.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:28
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Baloogan posted:MIGF isn't trolling, if you think MIGF is trolling then you are using an uselessly vague definition of the word. MIGF is pointing out the many flaws and bell-whistle anti-semitism in arguments here Baloogan posted:God knows nothing can change the opinions of some of the people in this thread but it's important to confront opinions that are a hop and a step away from full blown What does ISIS got to do with it? You believe Palestinians like them? Here's what they think of them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g10QAaZZKJk http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-fighters.html Claiming that Palestinians and Daesh are the same thing is the tactic used by genocidal maniacs to justify Israel's continued oppression of Palestinians. Everyone agrees that Daesh are awful people who need to be thoroughly defeated, so MIGF and you claim that Palestinians are Daesh too, so that the total extermination of this people becomes a righteous thing. You both are awful.
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Jul 19, 2015 11:13
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Jews are cool, Israel is not. Israel could become cool, but Jews as an ethnic demographic could never become inherently uncool. Some Israelis are cool, some are Bibi. Well, okay, only one Israeli is Bibi, but he's like really, really uncool.
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Jul 19, 2015 11:31
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Tons of Israelis are bibi. what's worse is that there's a whole bunch who are Martin Kahane. Anyway, I don't think that the one PA endorsed sketch of Palestinians mocking daesh is sufficient evidence that there isn't a growing support for daesh among palestinians http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.626318 Not that I honestly know what daesh has to do with the discussion but I don't really pay close attention to what MIGF and Baloogan have to say.
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Jul 19, 2015 11:58
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I love when people try to defend MIGF because they agree with his supposed position. His posts are one part regurgitated propaganda and two parts bizarre improv in an attempt to defend said propaganda. I refuse to believe that he isn't an extraordinarily dedicated effort to discredit the thoroughly bonkers positions of the Israeli right wing with straight-facedly taking them to their logical conclusions.
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Jul 19, 2015 12:05
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Tons of Israelis are bibi. what's worse is that there's a whole bunch who are Martin Kahane. To be fair, that's Pre-Yarmouk...
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Jul 19, 2015 12:13
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Oh good, we've reached the point of the thread where all the pro-israel trolls have figured out that the other side's points don't really matter. The reason they don't matter is because all you have to do is shout back "ANTISEMITISM" and everything goes away. It's loving impossible not to conflate anti-zionism and anti-semitism anymore. Thanks, Bibi! Can 'ha, antisemitism' be a bannable offense or something? It's all the last few pages have been and it's getting really loving old. Unless someone comes in here and straight up says jews are rats heil bonerhitler420, can we PLEASE let this poo poo die already? e: I realise some people do actually use anti-israel policy to disguise their anti-semitism, but honestly they're still probably right about Israel's policies most of the time.
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Jul 19, 2015 12:52
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Miftan posted:Oh good, we've reached the point of the thread where all the pro-israel trolls have figured out that the other side's points don't really matter. The reason they don't matter is because all you have to do is shout back "ANTISEMITISM" and everything goes away. It's loving impossible not to conflate anti-zionism and anti-semitism anymore. Thanks, Bibi! How about no? As annoying as it is to watch you guys get trolled by three separate people at the same time, pointing to Israeli policies as justification for anti-Jewish riots is every bit as dumb and racist as engaging in anti-Muslim riots because of ISIS, and the fact that the supposed human rights supporters in this thread aren't calling people on that is downright shameful. A complete moratorium on accusations of antisemitism in this thread is a dumb idea, unless it also comes along with a ban on calling pro-Israeli posters racists - and how will anyone be able to handle this thread if they can't accuse MIGF and KJI of being genocide supporters? Sure, there's plenty of spurious accusations of racism flying around - but I suspect that there's at least a couple of closet antisemites in the thread too, and they're probably more serious about it than the anti-Arab posters who might very well just be trolling.
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Jul 19, 2015 13:35
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Miftan posted:e: I realise some people do actually use anti-israel policy to disguise their anti-semitism, but honestly they're still probably right about Israel's policies most of the time. "Say what you will about them, but the KKK makes some really good points about black on white violence. P.S. I demand the mods ban anyone who dares suggest that I am a racist  "
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Jul 19, 2015 14:19
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The Insect Court posted:"Say what you will about them, but the KKK makes some really good points about black on white violence. P.S. I demand the mods ban anyone who dares suggest that I am a racist "I think everything Bibi does is right and Palestinians should neither be citizens of Israel nor be citizens of an independent state and this is a totally not racist viewpoint."
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Jul 19, 2015 14:32
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Panzeh posted:"I think everything Bibi does is right and Palestinians should neither be citizens of Israel nor be citizens of an independent state and this is a totally not racist viewpoint." Palestinians should be citizens of an independent state. Specifically, they should be citizens of Jordan and Egypt.
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Jul 19, 2015 14:39
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My Imaginary GF posted:Palestinians should be citizens of an independent state. Given your position that ethnic cleansing is cool and good, what exactly is your beef with anti-Semitism in Europe? Do you think it doesn't go far enough? Maybe governments should start revoking the citizenships of any Jewish residents, so they'll bugger off to their own ethnic nation?
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Jul 19, 2015 14:48
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Kajeesus posted:Given your position that ethnic cleansing is cool and good, what exactly is your beef with anti-Semitism in Europe? Do you think it doesn't go far enough? Maybe governments should start revoking the citizenships of any Jewish residents, so they'll bugger off to their own ethnic nation? How is granting folks citizenship to the last state entity in which they lived considered ethnic cleansing? In other news, ISIL is active in Gaza. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33585847 quote:A series of explosions on Sunday targeted cars belonging to officials in Gaza, including those from the ruling Hamas militant group.
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Jul 19, 2015 15:26
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My Imaginary GF posted:How is granting folks citizenship to the last state entity in which they lived considered ethnic cleansing? The part where you evict them from the land on which they live, due to their ethnicity? It's a pretty textbook case.
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Jul 19, 2015 16:11
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You know what really kills me is how there are people who've quoted benny morris in this thread w/r/t Unit 101, punitive incursions into jordan to kill displaced palestinians, etc. and it has literally zero effect on the diehards who are in the israel camp. Is there even a red line anymore that the state of israel can cross for some people before the efforts can't even be masked as accidentally malicious? This isn't even a specific problem I have with pro-israeli people. Some people are just so down to ride for whatever pet cause they happen to be championing. I brought up the conflict with a coworker who promptly sided with israel and said the palestinians don't support gay rights and so their rights aren't worth being fought for. But that just made me think, if you're going by that metric shouldn't you just abandon the struggle for black liberation in america since the argument can be made that black culture is extremely hostile to LGBT people? edit: I just noticed there's no list of recommended books and authors in the OP so people coming here who don't want to wade through this awful thread can go to the main source. I'll back: Norman Finkelstein- Beyond Chutzpah The Holocaust Industry This Time We Went Too Far Noam Chomsky- The Fateful Triangle Ilan Pappe- The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine I'm aware a lot of the people who post here have been following coverage of the conflict for a while and probably have read all of those books but relatively new people/people just interested in learning the history of the region should at least be given a hand in finding material. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 16:43 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 16:38
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Main Paineframe posted:How about no? As annoying as it is to watch you guys get trolled by three separate people at the same time, pointing to Israeli policies as justification for anti-Jewish riots is every bit as dumb and racist as engaging in anti-Muslim riots because of ISIS, and the fact that the supposed human rights supporters in this thread aren't calling people on that is downright shameful. A complete moratorium on accusations of antisemitism in this thread is a dumb idea, unless it also comes along with a ban on calling pro-Israeli posters racists - and how will anyone be able to handle this thread if they can't accuse MIGF and KJI of being genocide supporters? Sure, there's plenty of spurious accusations of racism flying around - but I suspect that there's at least a couple of closet antisemites in the thread too, and they're probably more serious about it than the anti-Arab posters who might very well just be trolling. I'm not saying Israel's lovely actions are the basis for antisemitism. I can definitely see how someone who is 100% into the 'Israel defines all jews' would understand that, and that's bibi's fault. It's still wrong though. The Insect Court posted:"Say what you will about them, but the KKK makes some really good points about black on white violence. P.S. I demand the mods ban anyone who dares suggest that I am a racist So just to be clear you're comparing Israel to the KKK?
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Jul 19, 2015 17:04
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The Insect Court posted:"Say what you will about them, but the KKK makes some really good points about black on white violence. P.S. I demand the mods ban anyone who dares suggest that I am a racist My hat is off to you. Is there no argument you can't artfully misconstrue?
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Jul 19, 2015 17:10
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Let's get down to brass tacks. Jewish emigration from Europe to Israel directly hurts the Palestinian cause and creates more sympathy for Israel. Why any anti-Zionist would oppose fighting anti-Semitism in countries like France or Sweden or would minimize the concerns or blame the victims(and I don't think the majority of anti-Zionists do), if only for practical reasons, just boggles the mind. Beyond the fact that it's basic loving decency. It's goddamned hypocritical to say that humanitarian concerns trump all else in a case like Gaza, and then should be swept aside when the shoe is on the other foot.
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Jul 19, 2015 17:55
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I don't oppose fighting anti-semitism anywhere and I haven't seen anyone in this thread say they do?
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Jul 19, 2015 18:08
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The argument basically started because someone said that Israel's actions and deliberate conflation of itself and the Jewish people as a whole may be contributing to anti-semitism in Europe. Which to me does not imply support for that viewpoint and doesn't seem any less plausible than Germany's actions (or alleged actions) during WWI contributing to anti-German sentiment, Pearl Harbour leading to persecution of Japanese-Americans or various acts perpetrated by Islamic terrorists contributing to increased Islamophobia in the West. Obviously, none of these are justified responses but that doesn't mean that some causative relationship couldn't exist. e: I mean there's definitely a significant amount of inherent bigotry involved in all of those examples, even before they had something they felt justified it, but I would be surprised if there was no correlation between public expression of those sentiments and the terrible things done in the name of an entire group. XMNN fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 18:21
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Don't like one third of white americans have german ancestry? I remember from reading Vonnegut how he writes about being raised up to be proud of his german heritage and how the schools in kentucky would teach german and the such and how once 1939 came along it was suddenly sorta taboo to even mention Vonnegut was a german name, while I could see how this could be construed as an anti-german sentiment were there any actual anti-german pogroms in america against americans of german ancestry? Not to mention that even if there were, the situation is somewhat different since as we all very well know most diaspora jews do not have any Israeli ancestry, that Israel presents itself as a land for jews by jews speaking for all jews is somewhat 'problematic' to say that least but the logical leap between 'israel bombs gaza' ->' murder jews in a kosher supermarket' cannot be explained other than through simple antisemitism. Surely the actions of the Israeli government do not make jews more popular among european muslims but again, the causative relationship requires an antisemitic leap either way. What should also be noted is that the victims of the hijacking of pro-palestinian activism by run-of-the-mill antisemites are only the diaspora jews directly and the palestinians themselves indirectly.
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Jul 19, 2015 18:34
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Don't like one third of white americans have german ancestry? I remember from reading Vonnegut how he writes about being raised up to be proud of his german heritage and how the schools in kentucky would teach german and the such and how once 1939 came along it was suddenly sorta taboo to even mention Vonnegut was a german name, while I could see how this could be construed as an anti-german sentiment were there any actual anti-german pogroms in america against americans of german ancestry? It's been theorized that Prohibition at least partially came out of anti-German sentiment during WW1, eg:  ("Hun" was a term for Germans during WW1)
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Jul 19, 2015 18:48
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XMNN posted:The argument basically started because someone said that Israel's actions and deliberate conflation of itself and the Jewish people as a whole may be contributing to anti-semitism in Europe. Which to me does not imply support for that viewpoint and doesn't seem any less plausible than Germany's actions (or alleged actions) during WWI contributing to anti-German sentiment, Pearl Harbour leading to persecution of Japanese-Americans or various acts perpetrated by Islamic terrorists contributing to increased Islamophobia in the West. The difference is, the actions of the Germans and Japanese created sentiment against them, Jews have been hated and brutalized -just for being Jews- for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. The circumstances of the foundation of Christianity make anti semitism systematic and intrinsic for many Christians. The same is probably true of Islam. Christ-killers, Sanhedrin, khyber khyber ya yahud. And by any realistic measure, anti semitism was worse before the founding of Israel than at any time since. We can pretend that since this is the modern world and we live in it, that all the bad things are put behind us, but it isn't true. Anti semitism exists in Europe not because decent people oppose the Israeli Jew, but because Europe has a very long, very deep history of anti semitism that has not radically changed in the past half century. The same is true of Muslim lands.
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Jul 19, 2015 18:58
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You're straight up wrong. Most modern antisemitism is based on Protocol of the Elders of Zion stuff, not religious reasons.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:04
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I tried to address that in my edit, I don't think Israel doing the terrible poo poo it does makes many people antisemitic, but I do think it might make people who are already antisemites more likely to do or say antisemitic things in public. I also think people who accused all the Japanese and Germans of being 5th columnists were probably racist before they thought they were nailing Canadian soldiers to crosses or whatever.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:07
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I totally agree with everyone here saying anti-semitism is hardcoded into christianity/islam. I also think everyone here is right when they say europe still harbors a considerable amount of anti-jewish sentiments and groups and individuals sometimes act on them. What I think a lot of people are taking issue with is not those two bullet points, per se but the ruthless exploitation and inflation of those two issues by pro-israeli pundits. I'm absolutely not trying to blame anyone who's been the victim of discriminatory violence, but if you seriously cannot see a correlation between blowhards like azouley and netanyahu saying things to the effect of israel is the home of the(white, orthodox)jews, he speaks for all jews, etc. and any uptick in resent toward jews then you're being wilfully ignorant. When netanyahu just won the last election, haaretz put out an article that featured several random israelis who had voted likud and asked what their reasoning was and the one guy who really stuck out to me was the security guard who essentially just explained it as "party loyalty". He had emigrated from I think the former soviet union and he "made a promise to (menachem)begin when I came to this country". If you don't think there are people like that on both sides of this issue who are influenced by out of context sound blurbs and anecdotes and don't really feel an urge to dig deeper or verify them, then what else can I say?
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Jul 19, 2015 19:08
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Antisemitism has deep historical roots and is contributed to and shaped by the contemporary rhetoric and actions of Israel. Likewise Islamophobia and (for example) ISIS. They aren't exclusive ideas.fool_of_sound posted:You're straight up wrong. Most modern antisemitism is based on Protocol of the Elders of Zion stuff, not religious reasons. People didn't pick Jews at random out of a hat to write the Protocols stuff about.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:10
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fool_of_sound posted:You're straight up wrong. Most modern antisemitism is based on Protocol of the Elders of Zion stuff, not religious reasons. Also, in that same survey: 35% of respondents claim that the actions of the state of Israel affect their opinions on Jews in general, more than half of which said it affected it negatively.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:10
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Peel posted:People didn't pick Jews at random out of a hat to write the Protocols stuff about. Agreed, but Protocols is a long standing cultural meme at this point, and can exist independently of Christian-Jewish religious tensions.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:12
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Oh, for sure. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, and I assume that's the basis of its purchase around the world in non-Abrahamic (lol  ) societies.
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Jul 19, 2015 19:16
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So is there any recent news on the Esra'elawi boy in Gaza? Have they found him?
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Jul 19, 2015 19:46
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fool_of_sound posted:You're straight up wrong. Most modern antisemitism is based on Protocol of the Elders of Zion stuff, not religious reasons. Simone Simonini! 
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