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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Has he written anything that didn't have the rape dial turned up to 11, though?
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Jul 26, 2015 05:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Has he written anything that didn't have the rape dial turned up to 11, though? I think that's an important realization to make. The Gap Cycle is deliberately unpleasant and it explores an unpleasant subject viscerally with a depth that you won't see from any writers that are just using rape as a cheap device to make their characters villains. If this means the books come across as "rape dial turned up to 11" then so be it, but let that statement stand as a description and not a judgment if you don't have any specific issues with how he portrays it. Some writers use rape in shallow and callous ways, but I don't think Donaldson is one of them. The way he writes is different enough from pulp garbage that I'd even speculate that maybe, just maybe, this is a little personal to him. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 05:19
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There's a way smaller chance the author was cracking one out while writing a death scene though. Still, given how hosed up some of these people are, I would not put it past em. Shady buncha fuckers.
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Jul 26, 2015 05:20
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PINING 4 PORKINS posted:I think that's an important realization to make. The Gap Cycle is deliberately unpleasant and it explores an unpleasant subject viscerally with a depth that you won't see from any writers that are just using rape as a cheap device to make their characters villains. If this means the books come across as "rape dial turned up to 11" then so be it, but let that statement stand as a description and not a judgment. Some writers use rape in shallow and callous ways, but I don't think Donaldson is one of them. The way he writes is different enough from pulp garbage that I'd even speculate that maybe, just maybe, this is a little personal to him. It's not just rape he does this with - it's cowardice, hate, and a lot of other things as well. To me, Donaldson goes beyond wanting to explore the impact and consequences of rape; it's more like he wants to just absolutely wallow in how awful people are in general, which pretty sharply turns me off from hearing anything potentially valuable he might have to say.
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Jul 26, 2015 05:25
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Kesper North posted:it's more like he wants to just absolutely wallow in how awful people are in general This'd be a good cover quote for him
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Jul 26, 2015 05:27
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RndmCnflct posted:How many scifi fantasy books include murder... oh, probably all of them. But no, rape is terrible, worse than murder, and authors shouldn't use it in their plots. There's also an incredibly long history of lovely writers poorly using rape as motivation for both female characters (as victims) or male ones (as avengers).
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Jul 26, 2015 05:29
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Mars4523 posted:[in] fiction rapists tend to be forgiven if they are sufficiently rich, powerful, handsome, or charismatic enough, If they are good at sports, if they have an angsty backstory, if the girl was wearing a sufficiently short skirt, or if they were on a date. I don't think this is correct at all. Edit: except maybe creepy literotica. Neurosis fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 05:34
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Has he written anything that didn't have the rape dial turned up to 11, though? Sometimes you just have to listen and do what the rape dial says.
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Jul 26, 2015 05:39
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Has he written anything that didn't have the rape dial turned up to 11, though? Mordant's Need and his short story collections. Plus the Covenant books that are not Lord Foul's Bane.
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Jul 26, 2015 05:41
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Selachian posted:Mordant's Need and his short story collections. Plus the Covenant books that are not Lord Foul's Bane. Even Lord Foul's Bane, there's a single instance at the beginning of the story and it is no way treated as titillating or edgy worldbuilding, it's a heinous thing that both the characters in the book and the reader view as reprehensible.
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Jul 26, 2015 05:57
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Mars4523 posted:in reality and fiction rapists tend to be forgiven if they are sufficiently rich, powerful, handsome, or charismatic enough, If they are good at sports, if they have an angsty backstory, if the girl was wearing a sufficiently short skirt, or if they were on a date. Talking about the dial being set to 11, how about in The Library at Mount Char where the main character blows off half of someone's head, lets him realize his defeat, stimulates his brain such that he will feel absolute suffering, and traps him in that moment forever. Or cooks a crazy girl alive in a barbeque. Or all the other poo poo . But no discussion or outrage over those incidents. I would rather read about rape 10/10 times than that poo poo. That book contained some of the most reprehensible things I think I've ever read. But as they made sense in the plot and moved the story forward I still enjoyed it overall, just like Donaldson's work.
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Jul 26, 2015 06:12
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savinhill posted:Even Lord Foul's Bane, there's a single instance at the beginning of the story and it is no way treated as titillating or edgy worldbuilding, it's a heinous thing that both the characters in the book and the reader view as reprehensible. This is a not uncommon problem with fans of fantasy: the first time something in a book takes them out of their comfort zone, that's all the book is about. It doesn't even matter if that thing happens exactly once in thousands of pages of text; in their mind, that's all it's about.
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Jul 26, 2015 06:14
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RndmCnflct posted:Talking about the dial being set to 11, how about in The Library at Mount Char where the main character blows off half of someone's head, lets him realize his defeat, stimulates his brain such that he will feel absolute suffering, and traps him in that moment forever. Or cooks a crazy girl alive in a barbeque. Or all the other poo poo . But no discussion or outrage over those incidents. Anyway, what's heinous in Covenant is the overabundance of Capitalized Macguffins The Author Was Too Lazy To Name. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 09:02 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 09:00
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Kesper North posted:So what you're saying is, rape is okay if it liberates a fantasy land or is part of a prophecy. No, what I'm saying is that rape is a terrible destructive act and that in the Covenant novels this manifests literally by setting in motion a chain of events that lead to the near-victory of absolute Evil. But by all means take that to mean liberation, if you are a psychopath or a loving imbecile.
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Jul 26, 2015 09:57
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Jedit posted:No, what I'm saying is that rape is a terrible destructive act and that in the Covenant novels this manifests literally by setting in motion a chain of events that lead to the near-victory of absolute Evil. But by all means take that to mean liberation, if you are a psychopath or a loving imbecile. Okay, I won't, but his books are violently, vomitously disgustingly gross. I would be entirely okay with it if our species simply stopped reading them.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:24
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Kesper North posted:Okay, I won't, but his books are violently, vomitously disgustingly gross. I would be entirely okay with it if our species simply stopped reading them. But he still didn't write Firefly. Piers Anthony is a significantly worse person, which is how this whole thing started.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:27
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Kesper North posted:Okay, I won't, but his books are violently, vomitously disgustingly gross. I would be entirely okay with it if our species simply stopped reading them. What does firefly have to do with anything? I'm not a fan of that either. Piers Anthony is a creeper. It is known. Burn the witch if you can.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:30
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Kesper North posted:What does firefly have to do with anything? I'm not a fan of that either. The Judge refocused his eyes and mopped his brow with a handkerchief. "Is—is the Defense ready to proceed?" "We are, Your Honor. We believe that this poignant tape establishes that though the Defendant may be technically guilty of the charge against him, he is not morally guilty. He did not seek the girl, he did not force his attention on her. He demurred at every stage, by her own testimony. It was entirely voluntary on her part. In fact, they were lovers, in the truest sense, age no barrier. The law may say he is guilty, but the law is sometimes an rear end." Several members of the Jury nodded their agreement. Then he turned to the Jury. "If there is guilt here, then surely it is that of the father, who set her up by incestuously toying with her. And of her brother, who practiced sodomy on her with a candle. Remember, it was to escape that abuse that she first fled and found the Defendant. The Defendant never hurt her. He did only what she asked. He gave her what no other man did. He loved her. We may take issue with the manner of the expression of that love, but we cannot deny its reality. She came to him of her own accord, again and again, because what he offered her was so much better than what she received at home. Her family should be on trial!" "Nymph" was five, and yes, there's a sex scene. Donaldson may be bad, but Anthony is on a whole other level. Donaldson hasn't, to my knowledge, included an author's note saying that the real problem is society condemning rapists. "It may be that the problem is not with what is deviant, but with our definitions. I suggest in the novel that little Nymph was abused not by the man with whom she had sex, but by members of her family who warped her taste, and by the society that preferred to condemn her lover rather than address the source of the problem in her family."
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Jul 26, 2015 10:36
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This is me, throwing up now.
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Jul 26, 2015 10:53
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Kesper North posted:So what you're saying is, rape is okay if it liberates a fantasy land or is part of a prophecy. How many prophecies or fantasy wars are triggered by a murder? Writing a (non-graphic) rape scene into a story does not make the writer a rape apologists. I haven't read the gap series (should I?) so I don't know if there is actual "rape apology" in those books. E: chrisoya posted:"It may be that the problem is not with what is deviant, but with our definitions. I suggest in the novel that little Nymph was abused not by the man with whom she had sex, but by members of her family who warped her taste, and by the society that preferred to condemn her lover rather than address the source of the problem in her family." Where does that poo poo come from? Amberskin fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 11:04
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If that wasn't a big enough "WHAT IN THE gently caress?" flag, the dude PUBLISHED a book called "The Color of Her Panties". Yea gonna say dude has some issues. Unfortunately he also has an audience that either likes, or shares these issues 
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Jul 26, 2015 11:21
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Amberskin posted:Where does that poo poo come from? Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Unfortunately he also has an audience that either likes, or shares these issues "Act One of episode 470 of the radio program This American Life is an account of boyhood obsessions with Piers Anthony. The act is written and narrated by writer Logan Hill who, as a 12-year-old, was consumed with reading Anthony’s novels. For a decade he felt he must have been Anthony's number one fan, until, when he was 22, he met "Andy" at a wedding and discovered their mutual interest in the writer. Andy is interviewed for the story and explains that, as a teenager, he had used escapist novels in order to cope with his alienating school and home life in Buffalo, New York. In 1987, at age 15, he decided to run away to Florida in order to try to live with Piers Anthony."
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Jul 26, 2015 11:38
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chrisoya posted:"Act One of episode 470 of the radio program This American Life is an account of boyhood obsessions with Piers Anthony. The act is written and narrated by writer Logan Hill who, as a 12-year-old, was consumed with reading Anthony’s novels. For a decade he felt he must have been Anthony's number one fan, until, when he was 22, he met "Andy" at a wedding and discovered their mutual interest in the writer. Andy is interviewed for the story and explains that, as a teenager, he had used escapist novels in order to cope with his alienating school and home life in Buffalo, New York. In 1987, at age 15, he decided to run away to Florida in order to try to live with Piers Anthony." holy loving poo poo e: I actually feel a bit sick reading that
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Jul 26, 2015 11:59
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Velius posted:Well, no one said Donaldson was a fun read. I know I bailed on the Gap series after book one. Saying he loves and endorses rape is just kind of silly. if you bailed on the gap then you don't have the right to tell me it isn't rape apologia because it absolutely is
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Jul 26, 2015 12:10
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Thereafter he had the favors of many maidens, some quite young. In the Castile tribe a girl was not supposed to indulge in sexual activity until she was married, which could be some winters after she was fully developed. Here she was free to do it the moment her breasts formed, or even somewhat before, if she felt inclined. Already he had learned enough to know that age was not the criterion; the will of the maiden was. A man could not force a woman, unless he was married to her; he could only do what she wished. Among them was one who seemed to be hardly ten winters old, and her body was not yet developed. She had no prior experience. But she desired the favor of the handsome visitor, and he was obliged to render it. She alone came to him purely for love; she was smitten with him, and afraid he would depart before she grew old enough to attract him, so she came now. It was his first conquest of a genuinely inexperienced girl, and he had the wit to proceed with caution, so that she would not be hurt. In fact, he moved so slowly that she grabbed his penis impatiently and crammed it into her cleft, which was overflowing with honey. In her naïveté she had used too much. Honey squeezed out and got all over everything, but it did make the penetration easier. He was afraid that it was hurting her even so, but she seemed not to care. Everything was clumsy. Evidently he succeeded in initiating her appropriately, despite his misgivings, for the following evening Mouse Pelt returned, and expressed her pleasure with him in a most thoroughgoing manner. What a difference experience made! ITT I am posting actual words Pier Anthony has written in his bestselling novels.
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Jul 26, 2015 12:25
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I have the feeling that not only is that incredibly creepy, but that kid is gonna get one hell of a yeast infection.
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Jul 26, 2015 12:32
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Hedrigall posted:Thereafter he had the favors of many maidens, some quite young. In the Castile tribe a girl was not supposed to indulge in sexual activity until she was married, which could be some winters after she was fully developed. Here she was free to do it the moment her breasts formed, or even somewhat before, if she felt inclined. Already he had learned enough to know that age was not the criterion; the will of the maiden was. A man could not force a woman, unless he was married to her; he could only do what she wished. Among them was one who seemed to be hardly ten winters old, and her body was not yet developed. She had no prior experience. But she desired the favor of the handsome visitor, and he was obliged to render it. She alone came to him purely for love; she was smitten with him, and afraid he would depart before she grew old enough to attract him, so she came now. It was his first conquest of a genuinely inexperienced girl, and he had the wit to proceed with caution, so that she would not be hurt. In fact, he moved so slowly that she grabbed his penis impatiently and crammed it into her cleft, which was overflowing with honey. In her naïveté she had used too much. Honey squeezed out and got all over everything, but it did make the penetration easier. He was afraid that it was hurting her even so, but she seemed not to care. Everything was clumsy. Evidently he succeeded in initiating her appropriately, despite his misgivings, for the following evening Mouse Pelt returned, and expressed her pleasure with him in a most thoroughgoing manner. What a difference experience made! 
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Jul 26, 2015 13:16
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Hey so we've reached the point in the thread where we, uh, post child porn. Really? Please let's stop.
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Jul 26, 2015 13:39
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I'm reading Aurora right now and considering I'm not a huge fan of KSR, I'm actually really enjoying it. I'll be done it in a day or two though and am looking for some sci fi recommendations on what to read next. Here's some general points on what I'm looking for: 1. I prefer hard sci fi. That means no FTL travel, no magic totally unbelievable technology etc. 2. Near future preferably. Anything from say 100 years in the future to maybe 1000. I'm not dead set against anything further out, I just like there to be a connection to our present day earth. Sci fi that takes place 20000 years in the future and mankind has settled the entire galaxy doesn't appeal to me. That's one of the reasons I could never really get into the culture series. It was just too distant. 3. Not a ton a alien civilizations that are all just humans with different ears or 4 legs or some kind of insect . If there has to be aliens then having them be kind of unknown and mysterious or actually totally "alien". Like the Heechee from Frederik Pohl's Gateway, or unknown like aliens the ones who created Rama in Arthur C. Clark's Rendezvous with Rama, or the aliens from Peter Watt's Blindsight. 4. Something written in or later than the 1970's. 5. By a different author than any I've listed below. I'm really trying to find some new authors. 6. Nothing by Neal Asher or Peter F Hamilton. If that's not enough I'll list some of my favourites. - Pretty much everything by Alastair Reynolds. - Gateway by Frederik Pohl. - Rendezvous with Rama, 2001, 2010, 2061 and 3001 by Arthur C Clark. (Tried some of his other stuff and wasn't really keen on it.) - Blindsight, Echopraxia, The Rifters trilogy by Peter Watts - The Expanse series by James SA Corey. - Spin, Blind Lake and The Chronoliths by Robert Charles Wilson. (I haven't really liked his other stuff.) - Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein I know that's all pretty picky but any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
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Jul 26, 2015 13:41
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If you read Starship Troopers, you definitely need to read "The Forever War".
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Jul 26, 2015 14:02
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johnsonrod posted:2. Near future preferably. Anything from say 100 years in the future to maybe 1000. I'm not dead set against anything further out, I just like there to be a connection to our present day earth. Sci fi that takes place 20000 years in the future and mankind has settled the entire galaxy doesn't appeal to me. That's one of the reasons I could never really get into the culture series. It was just too distant. This is really nitpicky, but most of the Culture stories take place before 2100 CE. You are correct in that the setting isn't really connected to the world as we know it, since the humans in those books are aliens.
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Jul 26, 2015 14:02
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MrFlibble posted:It doesn't need to be a huge description of everything thats gone before - just a quick reminder of whos who and whats what. You remember little details as the story goes on. Worst case, The Lost Fleet.  fritz posted:It's impossible to go wrong with "Soldier of the Mist" and "Soldier of Arete". corn in the bible posted:People like to talk about the pedo stuff in Piers Anthony but somehow everyone forgives the endless rape apologia in Stephen Donaldson coyo7e fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Jul 26, 2015 |
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Jul 26, 2015 14:19
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johnsonrod posted:I'm reading Aurora right now and considering I'm not a huge fan of KSR, I'm actually really enjoying it. I'll be done it in a day or two though and am looking for some sci fi recommendations on what to read next. The Engines of God by Jack McDevitt? It has FTL and the sequels get worse, but as a standalone book it's pretty good.
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Jul 26, 2015 14:50
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How about Embassytown? The caveat is that there's a lot of magical science and the actual science isn't exactly one you'd expect in a sci-fi, but it's a drat good book.
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Jul 26, 2015 14:59
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anilEhilated posted:How about Embassytown? The caveat is that there's a lot of magical science and the actual science isn't exactly one you'd expect in a sci-fi, but it's a drat good book. Was going to suggest this. Plus the alien race (their name escapes me at the moment) is one of the more unique alien races I've ever seen in a book.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:07
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corn in the bible posted:if you bailed on the gap then you don't have the right to tell me it isn't rape apologia because it absolutely is It's disturbing how you interpreted the events as apologia because they're really, really not.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:25
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Cpt. Mahatma Gandhi posted:Was going to suggest this. Plus the alien race (their name escapes me at the moment) is one of the more unique alien races I've ever seen in a book. Ariekei (AKA the Hosts) — and yeah, they're pretty drat creative.
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Jul 26, 2015 15:37
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RndmCnflct posted:Talking about the dial being set to 11, how about in The Library at Mount Char where ... That book contained some of the most reprehensible things I think I've ever read. *calmly deletes book from amazon wish list* coyo7e posted:The amnesia and journal thing really kill me, I couldn't get more than a few chapters into Soldier of the Mist before I was just tired of it. Is there a payoff? What I like about the Soldier books is watching Latro's interpretation of things change over time as the days pass and his situation changes, the example that I remember the most is actually in the disappointing book three where the boys whose father he killed (? don't 100% remember) slowly become 'my sons'
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Jul 26, 2015 15:47
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Why does this thread have to rehash the pedophile/rape discussion like every 30 pages? It's so ridiculous and dumb. It feels like so many people in this thread are fixated on it rather than just not reading stuff with weird peophile and rape stuff.
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Jul 26, 2015 16:22
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I've only heard of two people with the name Piers and I officially hate both of them.
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Jul 26, 2015 16:33
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