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Pedro De Heredia posted:That's not a very organic storyline. It's quite dumb and you can tell GRRM just wanted things to end that way so he wrote a bunch of bullshit to get to his predetermined ending. Jon basically helps Stannis and tries to gently caress with Ramsays plans as much as he can talk himself into rationalizing pretty much the whole book so I'm sort of confused why people are saying his choice wasn't very organic.
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Jul 28, 2015 05:50
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In It For The Tank posted:Recast Stephen Dillane as Randyll Tarly. All they told me was "oh he's won a few battles" and even that I had to fish around for.
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Jul 28, 2015 12:55
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A Typical Goon posted:Jon basically helps Stannis and tries to gently caress with Ramsays plans as much as he can talk himself into rationalizing pretty much the whole book so I'm sort of confused why people are saying his choice wasn't very organic. Yeah it's a weird criticism, there are much more egregious examples of plot-induced stupidity than Jon's arc in ADWD, such as Catelyn releasing Jaime like the biggest oaf in the world, or Cat ignoring Tyrion's denial of him owning the knife despite his case making a lot more sense than the bullshit she's been fed by LF... a lot of what Cat does is pretty contrived and stupid to be honest. Jon's struggle with his loyalties and with his notions of honor, justice and duty have been central to his character since book one, he's always been proud as well as naive and his ADWD arc is both interesting and consistent with his character and themes.
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Jul 28, 2015 13:26
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A Typical Goon posted:Jon basically helps Stannis and tries to gently caress with Ramsays plans as much as he can talk himself into rationalizing pretty much the whole book so I'm sort of confused why people are saying his choice wasn't very organic. It depends on what you consider organic. Here I am talking about 'organic' in the more general sense of where the story goes. The basic idea is simple: you want Jon Snow to be stabbed by the brothers of the Night's Watch who disagree with his decisions, in a way reminiscent of Caesar's death. So you write your way to that conclusion. The issue is how do you get there, and what it all means. The show is much more straightforward about things: Jon Snow good, Night's Watch traitors bad. The book is less so. Jon Snow makes a lot of dubious decisions. There's tears from the Night's Watch as they stab him. It's much more grey. The thing is, stories need some degree of clarity. If everything is grey, then you can't distinguish anything. It's just a grey blur. But even with clarity, you can question if the story really needed to go there. Was that really the only place the story could go? For me, the way it happens in the book is when 'realism' and 'nuance' becomes as artificial as black & white heroism. This is something that happens in both books and show at various points, you want characters to be 'flawed' and 'human' but too often the result of that is that they come across as inept and delusional. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 15:05
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Pedro De Heredia posted:The basic idea is simple: you want Jon Snow to be stabbed by the brothers of the Night's Watch who disagree with his decisions, in a way reminiscent of Caesar's death. So you write your way to that conclusion. This is how the show works, not how GRRM works*. If, in the process of writing the events leading up to the stabbing, things happen that prevent the stabbing Martin wouldn't write the stabbing scene. He has outright stated on several occasions that this is how he writes and it's the best possible explanation as to how the series got to its current bloated, meandering state. The show is slaved to hitting plot points and how we get to each one is not a priority. What the writers write to get to that conclusion won't in any way affect the conclusion because the show is only concerned with maintaining its bottom line via spectacle and shock value. * Not meant to imply that GRRM actually writes anymore Regulus74 fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jul 28, 2015 |
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Jul 28, 2015 17:07
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Cirofren posted:I didn't feel that way at all. To me it was more like Jon struggles with his identity as a Stark, a Nightswatchman, and a bastard throughout the story. In Thrones, Clash, and Storm we see him growing and gaining his own context for his oaths and the lessons imparted to him at Winterfell. Yeah all of this is more clear in the books, the show seems to constantly rob various characters of context and inner conflict that make them interesting; we barely see anything that made Jon such a visionary Lord Commander. In the books you could also make the argument the stabbing was a reactionary action of the old guard against his much needed reforms, you don't have this in the show.
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Jul 28, 2015 19:05
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All of that is missing the most important problem: they took out "Lord Snow" and "Lord Crow' and flipped the meaning behind "Sam the Slayer". Absolute travesty. I'm not even joking.
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Jul 29, 2015 03:30
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https://twitter.com/Kerry_Ingram/status/625041972647067648/photo/1 Pure evil. I approve.
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Jul 29, 2015 10:35
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Yeah it's a weird criticism, there are much more egregious examples of plot-induced stupidity than Jon's arc in ADWD, such as Catelyn releasing Jaime like the biggest oaf in the world, or Cat ignoring Tyrion's denial of him owning the knife despite his case making a lot more sense than the bullshit she's been fed by LF... a lot of what Cat does is pretty contrived and stupid to be honest. Catelyn released Jaime while under a period of emotional duress (almost all her kids and her husband at that point were dead. It's not a logical choice but it is a human one. Her reason for refusing to listen to Tyrion is pretty logical; A)She knows, or most of her evidence points to the Lannisters trying to kill her family (Starting with Jon Arryn supposedly getting murdered by them), B)She trusts Littlefinger because she grew up with him and has ZERO reason not to trust him, given that she is unaware of his seething hatred and jealousy of Eddard. The vast majority of Catelyn's decisions are logical at the time with the information she has available, it's just that GRRM always leaves that last bit of info out of her grasp that means she makes ultimately the wrong choice. Greek tragedy and all that.
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Jul 29, 2015 14:28
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I have no idea why either Ned or Catelyn trusted Littlefinger. It's not like he kept his feelings for Catelyn a secret, he challenged Brandon to a duel over it and got his rear end kicked for it. Even if Catelyn didn't share overmuch with Ned, Ned should know that Littlefinger is the guy his brother nearly killed over Catelyn. It never made sense to me that either of them rely on anything that he tells them, especially because there is no indication that Littlefinger ever reconciled with Catelyn after the duel. I mean I get that Littlefinger does things to ingratiate himself with the Starks when they get to King's Landing, but they seem to maintain a big blind spot to the idea that he's possibly harboring bad blood over Catelyn rejecting him and Brandon nearly killing him.
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Jul 29, 2015 14:44
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As Cat and Tyrion travel to the Eyrie he makes it very obvious that he is far from a complete dunce, when he tells her "Why would I arm an assasin with my own dagger?" and she still presses on with the trial and with taking him to the Eyrie it's an act of idiocy on her part, in fact it could easily be argued that any non-idiot would first assume that if the dagger truly belonged to Tyrion it is far more likely that someone is trying to frame Tyrion than that the dagger truly belongs to him. It's true that almost all of Cat's bad decisions come when she either doesn't have much time to think or when she's overcome by grief, but this is just the thing, she's constantly put into situation where she does very stupid things for quite flimsy reasons.
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Jul 29, 2015 15:01
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I just saw that there is a GoT monopoly set for sale and am utterly shocked there isn't a chess set as well. The chess set should have four full sets of pieces, one for each major house. Robert is still my king. Its still real to me, dammit.
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Jul 29, 2015 16:04
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GenoCanSing posted:I just saw that there is a GoT monopoly set for sale and am utterly shocked there isn't a chess set as well. The chess set should have four full sets of pieces, one for each major house. What, you mean like 
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Jul 29, 2015 16:37
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Hahaha, yeah I saw that. Yeesh.
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Jul 29, 2015 16:38
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emanresu tnuocca posted:As Cat and Tyrion travel to the Eyrie he makes it very obvious that he is far from a complete dunce, when he tells her "Why would I arm an assasin with my own dagger?" and she still presses on with the trial and with taking him to the Eyrie it's an act of idiocy on her part, in fact it could easily be argued that any non-idiot would first assume that if the dagger truly belonged to Tyrion it is far more likely that someone is trying to frame Tyrion than that the dagger truly belongs to him. It's true that almost all of Cat's bad decisions come when she either doesn't have much time to think or when she's overcome by grief, but this is just the thing, she's constantly put into situation where she does very stupid things for quite flimsy reasons. Littlefinger's lie about the dagger is credible because it is so bold and so easily falsifiable. Why would LF tell Ned a lie that hundreds of people would know was false? Wouldn't LF logically assume that Ned would tell Robert? That's very likely and would instantly get LF executed. LF is not known to have a deathwish, ergo his statement is probably true. Luckily, LF had magic plot armor so it all worked out.
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Jul 30, 2015 00:51
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Ashcans posted:I have no idea why either Ned or Catelyn trusted Littlefinger. It's not like he kept his feelings for Catelyn a secret, he challenged Brandon to a duel over it and got his rear end kicked for it. Even if Catelyn didn't share overmuch with Ned, Ned should know that Littlefinger is the guy his brother nearly killed over Catelyn. It never made sense to me that either of them rely on anything that he tells them, especially because there is no indication that Littlefinger ever reconciled with Catelyn after the duel. I actually think this is one of the things that makes even less sense in the books, given that Littlefinger is even more openly antagonistic to Ned.
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Jul 30, 2015 02:35
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The Little Kielbasa posted:Littlefinger's lie about the dagger is credible because it is so bold and so easily falsifiable. Why would LF tell Ned a lie that hundreds of people would know was false? Wouldn't LF logically assume that Ned would tell Robert? That's very likely and would instantly get LF executed. LF is not known to have a deathwish, ergo his statement is probably true. LFs plan should have come unravelled when Cat met Tyrion on the road, but she was a retard so it worked out easily.
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Jul 30, 2015 04:01
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BlindSite posted:LFs plan should have come unravelled when Cat met Tyrion on the road, but she was a retard so it worked out easily. The Lannisters were a major threat to her family at that point, having; A)Killed Jon Arryn (False, but she believed it as it came from her sister Lysa) B)Tried to kill Bran (True, but not for conspiratorial reasons) c)Tried to kill Bran again with the Dagger (Technically true since Joffrey is a Lannister Bastard, just not the Lannister Catelyn thought tried to do the deed) D)Tried to have Arya have a hand struck off because of Joffrey's stupidity. Catelyn and Eddard have a lot of reasons to mistrust and suspect the Lannisters, all of its pretty legitimate reasons when you don't know the whole picture. Furthermore, a long-running theme of ASOIAF is that everyone, everyone underestimates Littlefinger, because he is lowborn. Eddard does it, Tyrion does it (By not immediately having him executed after the knife incident), Jaime does it when he thinks of a "harmless hand", etc. Most people don't see him as a player in the Game of Thrones and therefore take his words at face value. Eddard doesn't kick the poo poo out of him most likely because Catelyn still holds a soft spot for him (Remember, she was the one that stopped Brandon from killing Littlefinger).
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Jul 30, 2015 13:53
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Tyrion actually doesn't underestimate Littlefinger, he knows full well LF is a dangerous man he actually understands LF is too valuable and capable to be executed by that point, LF is also well aware of Tyrion knowing he tried to set him up and he doesn't give a poo poo cause he knows Tyrion can barely touch him. For what it's worth, I do think that LF's plans succeeding so effortlessly is somewhat contrived but due to the reasons you guys specify where the rationale for the actions of the Starks and Lannisters is explained rather thoroughly in the books that this doesn't detract from the story. Cat is still an oaf, although she gets many points for being the only person who tells Robb that proclaiming himself king in the north is a huge folly. Perhaps people from up north are all just idiots.
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Jul 30, 2015 14:11
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Tyrion actually doesn't underestimate Littlefinger, he knows full well LF is a dangerous man he actually understands LF is too valuable and capable to be executed by that point, LF is also well aware of Tyrion knowing he tried to set him up and he doesn't give a poo poo cause he knows Tyrion can barely touch him. I'm convinced Littlefinger was the one who told Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion at the Blackwater.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:30
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Ague Proof posted:I'm convinced Littlefinger was the one who told Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion at the Blackwater. It seems unlikely cause Baelish leaves the city weeks before the battle and wouldn't have been in the position to know which of the kingsguards would be leading the sorties and which would remain with Joffrey and Cersei. It was either Joffrey or Cersei with Cersei being the likelier culprit on account of Joffrey being too stupid to hatch a scheme.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:49
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It seems unlikely cause Baelish leaves the city weeks before the battle and wouldn't have been in the position to know which of the kingsguards would be leading the sorties and which would remain with Joffrey and Cersei. It was either Joffrey or Cersei with Cersei being the likelier culprit on account of Joffrey being too stupid to hatch a scheme. Joff schemes to kill Bran and all of Robert's bastards, though.
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Jul 31, 2015 01:31
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GoT will likely go 8 seasons, with a prequel afterwards
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Jul 31, 2015 01:37
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I could definitely see a Dunk & Egg miniseries being popular.
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Jul 31, 2015 01:39
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ACTUAL good news. It means possibly less season 5s and more season 3+4s.
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Jul 31, 2015 01:55
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Apoplexy posted:ACTUAL good news. It means possibly less season 5s and more season 3+4s. Is that necessarily a good thing? Seasons 3 & 4 kinda had the opposite problem to season 5 where, instead of abruptly ending storylines with no development, characters did nothing for an entire year (Jon), repeated story beats (Arya, Theon) or had pointless scenes shoved in to fill time (Asha) because they stretched out a season's worth of material over two seasons. Ultimately, the show's problems stem from the lovely producers, rather than the length or number of seasons.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:49
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There were only a few cases of those problems, though. Arya's created material with The Hound was fine. It was better to have Theon around than disappear him because of a lack of content, like they did to Bran this last season. The storylines that would've split the season in two (Tyrion in chains, Cat and Robb existing, everything pre-Meereen in the Slaver's Bay) were really smartly-handled, with maybe just a tiny push of Joffrey's death ending season 3 instead of the second episode of season 4 being a great idea.
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Jul 31, 2015 02:52
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3/4 made sense because ASoS is basically two books worth of poo poo crammed into one. I'm not saying TWoW is going to be that way, but if they're stretching out the final seasons like this, you'd hope so.
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Jul 31, 2015 03:42
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Are they going to be able to keep people's interest for 8 seasons? This last one had about 2 episodes of actual plot happen. Are we going to see a season of material stretched over 3 seasons? Can we really handle another 3 years of Dany loving around in Essos?
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Jul 31, 2015 03:47
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Alain Post posted:3/4 made sense because ASoS is basically two books worth of poo poo crammed into one. I'm not saying TWoW is going to be that way, but if they're stretching out the final seasons like this, you'd hope so. TWoW is gonna be the best fuckin' book you ever read.
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Jul 31, 2015 03:48
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RCarr posted:TWoW is gonna be the best fuckin' book you ever read. I predict that by the end of the book Dany will only just get to Westeros and nerds will complain about blueballing for another few years.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:01
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I can't imagine giving a drat about the series after Winds of Winter drops and the show ends. I don't care if he ever publishes the last book.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:17
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emanresu tnuocca posted:It seems unlikely cause Baelish leaves the city weeks before the battle and wouldn't have been in the position to know which of the kingsguards would be leading the sorties and which would remain with Joffrey and Cersei. It was either Joffrey or Cersei with Cersei being the likelier culprit on account of Joffrey being too stupid to hatch a scheme. That's how he operates. He wouldn't get a Kingsguard to kill a noble while he was known to be in town.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:26
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unlimited shrimp posted:I can't imagine giving a drat about the series after Winds of Winter drops and the show ends. I don't care if he ever publishes the last book. GRRM has realized this is true for 80% of fans and that's why he's canceling appearances and (slowly) getting his lard rear end in gear His only chance is to finish ADOS before season 8 ends (  )
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Jul 31, 2015 04:31
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People loved Harry Potter so much that they're making a prequel trilogy so I don't see GRRM having much trouble.
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Jul 31, 2015 04:55
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computer parts posted:People loved Harry Potter so much that they're making a prequel trilogy so I don't see GRRM having much trouble. A prequel trilogy about what, Dumbledore's 'frisco adventures?
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Jul 31, 2015 11:19
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Apoplexy posted:ACTUAL good news. It means possibly less season 5s and more season 3+4s. Fewer.
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Jul 31, 2015 11:28
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I had a bet going show would en before next book comes out. Still confident I'm going to win, even if they go 8 seasons.
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Jul 31, 2015 15:23
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Irish Joe posted:A prequel trilogy about what, Dumbledore's 'frisco adventures? About a guy who wrote a book about magical creatures in the Harry Potter universe. Played by Academy Award Winner for Best Actor Eddie Redmayne.
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Jul 31, 2015 15:26
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The Little Kielbasa posted:Fewer. Season 5 may have been a terrible mess, but at least it made these threads funnier.
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Jul 31, 2015 15:30
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