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MrNemo posted:I'm curious, in that article's discussion of security 'co-operation' there's no mention of what co-operation the IDF and Israeli security services provide to Palestinians. Aside from not being shelled or having their tax revenue/foreign aid/utilities/etc. cut off by Israel what exactly constitutes the Israeli end of security co-operation? Do they permit PA forces to make arrests of violent settlers, etc. inside Israeli territory or arrest and hand over Israelis suspected of committing crimes inside Palestinian areas? Are there feel good stories of Palestinians accidentally wandering into Israeli territory being helped backed by the IDF? The IDF arrests groups that might threaten Fatah rule and functions as a scapegoat for West Bank police actions the Palestinian population might not approve of. With their superior equipment and expertise, they can provide commando raids and other things along those lines to arrest suspected dissident leaders, while the PA security forces can focus their resources more toward beating protestors and arresting students. The security cooperation is not between "Israel" and "Palestine" for the purpose of bettering their societies, it's between "the IDF" and "the PA" for the purpose of maintaining PA rule in the West Bank. That's why it's such a great example of collaborationism - the PA is collaborating with the IDF to arrest threats to its own rule in the West Bank. MonsieurChoc posted:Yeah, I know, but it's not something that's done now. And unlike the natives, who were outnumbered and outgunned, the Palestinians are merely outgunned. You have to be really stupid and/or evil to build a house in the middle of someone's else country and expect those guys to just take it. It is something that's done now. Russia literally just spent the last year doing it. They've caught plenty of flak for it, sure, but it's by no means some unique special thing that only Israel does. Israel is just a particularly overt and long-running example and one of the few still happening right now.
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Jul 28, 2015 17:15
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My Imaginary GF posted:"someone you don't like," in this case, being a foreign terrorist group acting as a dictator's proxy organization They actually voted for the List of Change and Reform which was affiliated with Hamas but which held itself separate and advocated resistance but not terrorism, instead putting forward an electoral platform of humanitarian social measures to improve the quality of life within Gaza and get rid of the notoriously corrupt Fatah politicians. Also how are Hamas a foreign terror group as opposed to a domestic terror group? I mean I don't agree with them being a proxy organisation either, they're obviously pursuing their own course for very obvious reasons of self-determination and liberation, but I understand the old tired arguement at least. I can't even see how you wouldn't view them as domestic.
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Jul 28, 2015 21:27
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team overhead smash posted:I can't even see how you wouldn't view them as domestic. Do they reside in Israel? No? Then they're foreign. It's really that simplistic a worldview. I still can't get over the clowncar parade spouting  everywhere. I mean, I know it's in the online script to compare everything that even slightly perturbs Israel to the holocaust, but you're not supposed to do it into a camera.
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Jul 28, 2015 23:11
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My Imaginary GF posted:"someone you don't like," in this case, being a foreign terrorist group acting as a dictator's proxy organization Which dictator?
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Jul 29, 2015 00:40
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Crowsbeak posted:Which dictator? What nation do Hamas' leadership shelter themselves in?
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Jul 29, 2015 00:47
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Main Paineframe posted:Ariel did decide to evacuate Gaza due in part to pressure from Hamas making it difficult to hold onto the Gaza settlements, but that's not even remotely the same as Hamas expelling the settlers themselves. quote:When I know you're just trying to exaggerate things to make some kind of point, but it's going to be pretty hard for you to demonize Israel for expelling Palestinians when the other side of your mouth is praising Hamas for "expelling" the Israelis!
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Jul 29, 2015 00:52
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My Imaginary GF posted:What nation do Hamas' leadership shelter themselves in? Yep that's right, HAMAS is just a proxy organization for Jordan. And then for Qatar. And then Syria. Then Qatar again. Those crafty devils!
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Jul 29, 2015 00:58
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My Imaginary GF posted:What nation do Hamas' leadership shelter themselves in? Yeah so is QEII a dictator?
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Jul 29, 2015 01:08
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah so is QEII a dictator? 
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Jul 29, 2015 01:10
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Crowsbeak posted:Yeah so is QEII a dictator? More pertinently, were the Free French a foreign army? Since they and their leadership had been sheltering outside France and even with a nation that had launched attacks in French citizens and soldiers in Syria.
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Jul 29, 2015 03:44
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So funny the Beit El demolitions haven't been brought up itt, thought I'd give you guys something to slaver over. So in the illegal settlement of Beit El some real estate enterpreneur decided to go the extra mile and build two apartment buildings over lands outside of the settlements belonging to a palestinian farmer, fortunatly for the farmer his ownership of the land has been very well documented and he had all of the neccesary paperwork to challenge the illegal land seizure in Israeli courts, about a week ago the supreme court ruled that the buildings are to be demolished, now, bear in mind that these buildings have never been populated, until the demolitions started they were still under construction and far from being fit for population, so, ever since the supreme court made its final decision the settlers and their cohorts in the knesset, chief among them the MKs and ministers from the jewish home have been losing their poo poo, yesterday a settler teenaged girl stabbed an Israeli police man, they've been throwing stones at the demolition crews and the policemen and setting fire to tires and whatever's handy, none have been shot thus far, oddly enough. Earlier today Naftalli went to Beit El and made an impassioned speech standing on a nearby rooftop encouraging the mob to keep defying the supreme court's decision stating that dismantling the buildings was 'giving a boon to palestinian terrorism' (although, as noted, the land owner fought to reclaim his land through strictly legal channels), Minister of Justice Ayelet Shaked who only two weeks ago passed legislation allowing the courts to imprison rioters and stone throwers for up to twenty years without needing to prove criminal intent has called the demolitions an act of deception by the Likud ministers and threatened that it shall be answered in kind by the Jewish Home, MK Motti Yogev also of the jewish home has called to "take the D-9 bullduzoers and flatten to the supreme court building". So what does Supreme Leader do about all of these very public acts of incitement and lawlessness? He's authorized the expension of the Beit El settlement through the building of 300 new housing units.
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Jul 29, 2015 14:54
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Some posturing has got to be involved here. The entire Likud party is going out of its mind condemning the "targeting of the settlements", except for the one tiny voice of dissent belonging to Moshe Ya'alon, minister of defense, who just so happens to be the person who actually makes any of the decisions. After last election a lot of politicians realized that the Israeli public has swung drastically to the right wing. This is a phenomenon that had been acknowledged before, but only after last elections the political system seemed to really grasp the extent of it. The politicians are adjusting their rhetoric accordingly, and you can see the effect across the board. Meretz passed the threshold just barely. Yesh Atid & Labor noticeably changed their tune (Lapid 2012: "The peace process is essential to ensure the future of Israel"; Lapid 2015: "drat it Bibi alienating the USA is not a good idea"). And everyone else, starting with Likud and going to the right, have officially entered a game of right-wing chicken. Except, that is, for Netanyahu -- who after those elections has become officially untouchable. You won't hear him saying anything about this issue unless it becomes convenient for him to intervene.
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Jul 29, 2015 17:57
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Amnesty International and Forensic Architecture just released a detailed report on the black friday/hannibal directive bombing of Rafah last august.quote:There is overwhelming evidence that Israeli forces committed disproportionate, or otherwise indiscriminate, attacks that killed scores of civilians in their homes, on the streets and in vehicles and injured many more, including through repeated use of artillery and other imprecise explosive weapons in densely populated civilian areas. Hundreds of homes and other civilian structures were destroyed or damaged. In some cases, there are indications that they directly fired at and killed civilians, including some who were fleeing. Such attacks continued even after Lieutenant Goldin was declared dead on 2 August. quote:Given the presence of hundreds of civilians, many of whom were unable to leave their homes due to continuous aerial bombardment and tank fire, the Israeli army had a legal obligation to avoid use of imprecise explosive weapons and to take other feasible precautions to spare civilians and civilian objects. Throughout the period from 1 to 4 August, the Israeli army failed to verify that they were targeting military objectives and to take other necessary precautions. In some cases they warned civilians to stay in their homes which were then bombarded; in other instances they failed to provide safe routes for civilians who were attempting to flee under heavy fire. quote:To the extent that some of the violations committed by the Israeli army in Rafah between 1 and 4 August may have been carried out as part of a widespread or systematic attack on the civilian population in Rafah, in furtherance of a state policy, they may also constitute crimes against humanity.
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Jul 29, 2015 19:53
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emanresu tnuocca posted:So funny the Beit El demolitions haven't been brought up itt, thought I'd give you guys something to slaver over. It sounds like just a typical incident in an overall trend of endless settlement expansion in the West Bank, with any constraint or legal defense maneuvered around. Demolishing the two illegal structures sounds like a smokescreen, anyway - an example to point to when dealing with moderates and leftists to say "Look, see, we're obeying the law, settlement activity is controlled and fair (ignore all the resistance)" while the same processes are used to expand the settlement elsewhere and further the overall goal of slicing up the West Bank into little Bantustans. We're all familiar with the trend and Israel's defenders have an arsenal of different responses we've seen before, so I guess the real news will be when the courts finally decide that even legal and documented Palestinian land ownership is not a defense or the settlements spread sufficiently that annexing the whole "Area C" region becomes feasible.
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Jul 29, 2015 22:31
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The farce here is that basically this government is not even able to pretend it gives a poo poo about the rule of law and basic human rights for palestinians in the west bank. That demolishing two buildings is completly meaningless is exactly what makes this whole thing noteworthy, the standard of proof required by the courts for palestinians to prove private land ownership is already extremely unreasonable (as demonstrated with the recent Susiya demolition orders) and even when ownership is induspitable the Israeli government uses various martial law regulations to have the IDF seize certain territories and declare them as training grounds and the such at which case palestinians are prevented from accessing their lands and settlers start doing their usual routine of bringing caravans and expanding until such a point were the IDF declares that it no longer requires those lands and then they somehow magically become absentee property or other such tricks, so, what's notable right now that in the rather rare case where the courts to order the demolition of settler built buildings on private palestinian land the settlers and the government fail to capitalize and demolish two empty buildings to pretend that the rule of law does apply in the west bank, instead the settlers pretend this is the gaza disengagement all over again and their MKs join in and make it very publicly known that they don't give a poo poo about the rule of law as long as it's jewish settlers who are doing the thieving. To top it all off Bibi is so dependant on the settler's support in the knesset that instead of telling them to gently caress off and arresting a bunch of people to show the world that Israel and the IDF police the settlers and protect the palestinians he announces that he'll just build more housing units in that very settlement.
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Jul 29, 2015 23:55
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I really am not trolling here when I ask this, but what are the chances that say in the next tyen years Bibiand both Abbas die, the plo goes into chaos and someone like Bennet gets elected PM? Also in such a scenario how bad would things get in Israel?
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Jul 30, 2015 00:42
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Bibi is only 66, we still have a bunch of time with that fucker. He will lose an election sometime before he dies, is my bet. As for Bennet, he lost a bunch of power these past elections but I think many right wing voters are rather appreciative of the rabble rousing him and his party are doing so maybe his star is on the rise again, who knows, it's not like he's significantly more right wing than Netanyahu imo, he's just a lot more focused on appeasing the settlers where Netanyahu did previously care somewhat about trying to pretend Israel is a not an ethnocracy. Ultimately it's still likelier that Netanyahu's eventual successor will come from Likud, who knows though. If Israelis will elect Bennet or some one like him it could only mean massive support to the annexation of the west bank, and who can tell what can of worms that could open.
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Jul 30, 2015 01:30
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On a scale of, say, AJE to Inspire, where does Electronic Intifada rank in terms of blatant bias and reliability? Same question but with Mondoweiss. I've lapsed quite badly in the last few years being in any way engaged with news from this region and I remember, while not trusting them also not being totally suspicious of everything that's written there as I am now. So has something changed, or am I just more skeptical nowadays?
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Jul 30, 2015 05:18
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I don't know poo poo about mondoweiss but EI is not so much unreliable but heavily biased in favor of the palestinians and tbh I take a lot of their coverage with a dose of salt although I want to agree with them but when it comes to actually citing examples like casualties and the like I tend to go for Amnesty International or B'Tselem, etc. You're not winning hearts and minds when you cite a website called Electronic Intifada.
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Jul 30, 2015 05:33
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Right, they're both blatantly biased in favor of their own points of view (which aren't necessarily the same), but they're reasonably reliable. I wouldn't blindly trust everything they report ore agree with everything they say, but that's true of any media. I don't read Mondoweiss anymore though, feels too much like a group blog.
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Jul 30, 2015 05:55
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EI is interesting for what it is, although I'm sure most of its fans don't read the equivalent sites on the other side to balance it out. Weiss is a weirdo who likes to obsess about Jewish over-representation in media and finance, never mind all the strange anti-Clinton stuff. He probably wrote the best magazine piece ever about Bohemian Grove though.
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Jul 30, 2015 06:25
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The farce here is that basically this government is not even able to pretend it gives a poo poo about the rule of law and basic human rights for palestinians in the west bank. One especially aggravating part in relation to the settlers throwing rocks at the IDF on the site is that last week a new law was introduced that allows stone throwers to be imprisoned for five to twenty years. As the time of its introduction Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked said “Tolerance toward terrorists ends today. A stone-thrower is a terrorist and only a fitting punishment can serve as a deterrent and just punishment.” Strange how the rhetoric is no longer mentioned when its Jewish settlers throwing the stones. I can already guess now how many of the settlers will be imprisoned for their actions.
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Jul 30, 2015 06:56
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I've never known AJE to provide bad reporting, but they can be counted on to provide no reporting at all with regards to certain matters (basically anything related to Qatar's ruling elite and their close interests). So they do a good job covering %90 of stories in the mideast, and you'll just have to look elsewhere for the rest of it.
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Jul 30, 2015 07:00
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team overhead smash posted:One especially aggravating part in relation to the settlers throwing rocks at the IDF on the site is that last week a new law was introduced that allows stone throwers to be imprisoned for five to twenty years. I've read some people saying that Shaked's bill was intentionally designed to apply only to 'rioters' in east jerusalem as technically Israeli law isn't enforced in the west bank by the Israeli police but rather by the IDF that operated by its own directives (which, incidentally, were modified a couple of weeks ago when the IDF announced that it's RoE concerning Palestinians and Settlers is now the same... surprisingly this wasn't made apparent in Beit El or Se-Nur yesterday), so you know, smoke and mirrors as usual.
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Jul 30, 2015 11:15
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I've read some people saying that Shaked's bill was intentionally designed to apply only to 'rioters' in east jerusalem as technically Israeli law isn't enforced in the west bank by the Israeli police but rather by the IDF that operated by its own directives (which, incidentally, were modified a couple of weeks ago when the IDF announced that it's RoE concerning Palestinians and Settlers is now the same... surprisingly this wasn't made apparent in Beit El or Se-Nur yesterday), so you know, smoke and mirrors as usual. So you're saying we can expect a shitload of settlers to be placed in administrative detention and be subjected to standing for hours at a checkpoint for no reason, or get threatened with the rape of family members by GSS operatives?
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Jul 30, 2015 15:30
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Ultramega posted:So you're saying we can expect a shitload of settlers to be placed in administrative detention and be subjected to standing for hours at a checkpoint for no reason, or get threatened with the rape of family members by GSS operatives? Last I checked, settlers don't belong to political organizations which promote suicide bombings of Israeli civilian infrastructure. There is a reason, and that reason is risk-minimization resulting from the collapse of inter-religious communities and social networks caused by the intifadas.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:45
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Wait so you're saying the settlements don't negatively impact inter-religious communities or social networks?
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Jul 30, 2015 15:50
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MrNemo posted:Wait so you're saying the settlements don't negatively impact inter-religious communities or social networks? You can't negatively impact that which the intifadas killed dead.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:52
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Bolek posted:On a scale of, say, AJE to Inspire, where does Electronic Intifada rank in terms of blatant bias and reliability? Same question but with Mondoweiss. I don't remember ever seeing anything that particularly reeked of garbage or bullshit from Electronic Intifada, but they've very clearly picked a side and they're pretty open about it. I generally avoid citing it in discussions, because they're very obviously pushing a particular viewpoint and most people will dismiss them based on their name alone, but I don't think I've ever seen them making poo poo up or doing trumped-up bullshit articles. I don't follow them regularly, though. Ultramega posted:So you're saying we can expect a shitload of settlers to be placed in administrative detention and be subjected to standing for hours at a checkpoint for no reason, or get threatened with the rape of family members by GSS operatives? That's up to politics. Technically the West Bank is under martial law (though the reality is quite a bit more muddled) and I can't imagine the IDF enjoys dealing with settlers' poo poo, but with the current state of the government and public opinion, I can't see the politicians authorizing any kind of action against the settlers.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:54
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My Imaginary GF posted:You can't negatively impact that which the intifadas killed dead. Well this is an interesting line of reasoning. I'm sure I could compare that to the idea that Israel was 'a land without a people' or the idea of the Native Americans being driven off land as they didn't have any idea of a settled home or something. Then you could double down on that position and probably draw a comparison to Gaza that squarely blames Hamas for the destruction of infrastructure there and I can point out that Israel cannot be stripped of agency for their acts in retaliation and then we go into a circular argument about agency for a bit before someone else joins in and somethingsomething proto-antisemitism. I'll save the thread a derail and just thank you for your time.
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Jul 30, 2015 15:59
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My Imaginary GF posted:You can't negatively impact that which the intifadas killed dead. Or the IDF bulldozes/deports/expels from their native (and often legal) homeland. 
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Jul 30, 2015 16:03
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Main Paineframe posted:That's up to politics. Technically the West Bank is under martial law (though the reality is quite a bit more muddled) and I can't imagine the IDF enjoys dealing with settlers' poo poo, but with the current state of the government and public opinion, I can't see the politicians authorizing any kind of action against the settlers. Yeah it was a hyperbolic statement. The ONE time I can recall in recent memory of a settler getting evicted and prosecuted for living in an illegal outpost, his lawyer claimed it was an extreme and unprecedented punishment and I don't think the IDF even demolished said outpost...I think. http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.645375 Also lol he's fuhrer kahane's grandson. Figures.
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Jul 30, 2015 16:34
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Ultramega posted:So you're saying we can expect a shitload of settlers to be placed in administrative detention and be subjected to standing for hours at a checkpoint for no reason, or get threatened with the rape of family members by GSS operatives? Pretty sure I said the opposite?
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Jul 30, 2015 16:46
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emanresu tnuocca posted:the IDF announced that it's RoE concerning Palestinians and Settlers is now the same sorry if i misunderstood you but i took that to mean they'd be applying the same harsh and unjust measures against both
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Jul 30, 2015 16:54
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Ultramega posted:sorry if i misunderstood you but i took that to mean they'd be applying the same harsh and unjust measures against both Yes and I implied (or meant to?) that it was just lip service cause they didn't shoot any of the rioters in Beit El.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:08
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6 people stabbed at Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade. 4 hospitalized, one suspect arrested.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:17
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Holy poo poo Al i JUST literally finished reading that article. Somewhere Naftali Bennett smiles and nods approvingly. Christ.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:29
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Huh. On my very first Jerusalem pride parade, I and some hysterical dude were both interviewed by a local network (I don't think we were interesting enough to get on the air) - he was convinced that the counter-demonstrators were just waiting for their chance to murder us all, and I was highly dismissive of his concerns. Now I'm kinda glad I'm in my hometown, helping the family out, instead of hanging out in Jerusalem. Weird. Edit - Literally the biggest big of negative feedback I got so far was some random douchebag in a random corner of the Russian internet trying to organize an x-Chan raid on my livejournal because I did a photo report of my participation in that pride parade. I really thought that poo poo was behind us. Xander77 fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Jul 30, 2015 |
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Jul 30, 2015 17:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:6 people stabbed at Jerusalem Gay Pride Parade. 4 hospitalized, one suspect arrested. well i guess this just underlines its importance
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Jul 30, 2015 17:34
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In breaking news, at least six Jews have been injured in a vicious stabbing rampage in the heart of Jerusalem. No worries, though - there hasn't been a single cry of terrorism this time. After all, the perpetrator was just a "religious youngster" (a Haredi Jew), not one of those vile, inhuman terrorists! The victims? Marchers in Jerusalem's annual gay pride parade. The motivation? Almost certainly religious, since the Haredi believe homosexuality is a sinful violation of God's law and refer to the gay pride march as "the abomination parade". Details are a bit scarce, but the timing is quite something - it's been just over ten years since the last time a Haredi man stabbed several people at a Jerusalem gay pride parade, and the perpetrator of that incident was released from jail just a couple of months ago after finishing his ten-year sentence. I wonder if the timing's related? After all, last decade's assailant, with his proclamation of " I came to murder in the name of God. Such abomination cannot exist in Israel", became somewhat of a hero among the anti-gay far right.
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Jul 30, 2015 17:46
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