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So what are the Bernie-or-bust kids going to do when Bernie enthusiastically campaigns for Hillary? Burn their t-shirts like sports fans do when a star player signs with their rivals?
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Jul 29, 2015 05:11
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I don't like Hillary, not because she's a woman, but because she takes bribes from monied interests, and doesn't communicate to the electorate what those monied interests want her to do.
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Jul 29, 2015 05:13
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MrBims posted:She's doing a good enough job of dropping her net favorability and polling in general election matchups on her own dime. A multibillion dollar, decades long campaign against her still hasn't destroyed her. I'd say she's doing ok. Her net favorability at the moment has more to do with the stories in the news about her, which are all negative because she isn't campaigning in any particularly great capacity, than anything lasting. She's avoiding saying anything because it will eat news cycles better spent on the Republican clown car and galvanize the Republican field against her. Once we get closer to actual primaries we'll see how the numbers change and make predictions based on that. As for Bernie, he doesn't really have the financial support for a real run at the presidency, nor does he have a track record showing that he'll be able to weather the venomous, disingenuous attacks that would be levied against him in a serious contest. He's fine when talking about the issues, but so were Gore and Kerry who very quickly found out that lies and personal attacks can sink a presidential bid quite effectively. So far he's had an easy ride where he can say what he likes and get painted as an underdog going against the establishment. He hasn't gotten hit with questions about religion, diplomacy, or specific economic policy gotcha questions on a national network yet and it will be interesting to see how he handles them. I'm personally hoping he does an excellent job because those questions are bullshit, but they also happen to be inordinately important to the average American who only vaguely tunes in to politics on rare occasion. Suppose the mainstream media paints Sanders as: a Jew Atheist who is soft on Iran, Syria, and ISIS while supporting radical pie in the sky spending plans while paying for them with unprecedented tax increases that will come out of your wallet and kill jobs. How likely is the average American going to vote for him, even if they support each and every one of his policies individually? Remember how the average American loves every individual Obamacare provision, but hates Obamacare? ElrondHubbard fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 05:16
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Yes, it is. It was a Christmas present. Medium Amber. Too cheap for Fancy
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Jul 29, 2015 05:33
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Mirthless posted:It's not like there hasn't been substantial, actual sexism in nearly all of these threads in the last week. It's hard to believe it's not there when it's right in front of you. I don't think it's the main reason people have for not liking Hillary, obviously, but just like there was a great deal of Democrats who wouldn't vote for Obama because he happened to be black, I think there's a similar contingent of Democrats who won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman. And just like in 2008 and 2012, if you claim that you chose to vote for the Republican because the Democrat didn't meet some bizarro progressive litmus test, I'm just going to go ahead and assume you have some loving wrong opinions about black people and women, not that you have some weird hyper-principles that require you to loop around and vote against yourself when you don't get exactly what you want. Where is the evidence
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Jul 29, 2015 05:38
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Mirthless posted:Man I guess you're right, both sides are the same and it really doesn't matter who is in the supreme court, at least if you're a straight white male anyway. This is the answer, and why Bernie supporters have almost totally turned me off over the course of this early primary. Like, you're so wrapped up in being an outsider and aggressive about economic policy that you can't imagine why, failing that, there's incentive to stop these like this from happening under a Republican president. As a black gay male with a single mother, I can think of plenty of issues that would make a whole fuckton of difference with a Ginsburg/Scalia combination off of the court and replaced with an Alito double instead of another Ginsburg/Kagan combination. It's the height of white male selfishness. I mean, seriously, all four justices not appointed by Obama or a Bush will be 78 or older by the 2017 inauguration. (3-2 conservative lean minus those four) It's not inconceivable that a two term president places four justices and dictates the direction of the Supreme Court for 20 or more years.
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Jul 29, 2015 05:44
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(the ruling was 5-4 you loving shitlord)
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The X-man cometh posted:So what are the Bernie-or-bust kids going to do when Bernie enthusiastically campaigns for Hillary? Burn their t-shirts like sports fans do when a star player signs with their rivals? It's weird but I probably just won't vote for her I know I'm pretty wacky, lol.
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Jul 29, 2015 05:49
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this thread is feeling the leaking bern
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Jul 29, 2015 05:50
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AARP LARPer fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Jan 22, 2016 |
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Jul 29, 2015 05:54
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Mirthless posted:It's not like there hasn't been substantial, actual sexism in nearly all of these threads in the last week. It's hard to believe it's not there when it's right in front of you. I don't think it's the main reason people have for not liking Hillary, obviously, but just like there was a great deal of Democrats who wouldn't vote for Obama because he happened to be black, I think there's a similar contingent of Democrats who won't vote for Hillary because she's a woman. And just like in 2008 and 2012, if you claim that you chose to vote for the Republican because the Democrat didn't meet some bizarro progressive litmus test, I'm just going to go ahead and assume you have some loving wrong opinions about black people and women, not that you have some weird hyper-principles that require you to loop around and vote against yourself when you don't get exactly what you want. Hm, yes, all the Bernie supporters saying they're going to vote for a Republican if Sanders doesn't win the primary. This is certainly something that's happening.
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Jul 29, 2015 05:56
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Hm, yes, all the Bernie supporters saying they're going to vote for a Republican if Sanders doesn't win the primary. This is certainly something that's happening. What is the point of all of the ideological piss-fights at all then, if everyone here is agreeing "Vote Bernie when I can and vote D afterward regardless?" Or are you arguing about differences between "Won't vote D for Hillary" and "Will vote R instead"?
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Jul 29, 2015 06:04
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It is kind of amazing how people having managed to take the most left wing and progressive candidate to run for President with any actual support in decades, who is running against an architect of the New Democrats third wayism, and make it so that supporting him is the bigoted, anti-minority and anti-women vote.
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Jul 29, 2015 06:04
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Hm, yes, all the Bernie supporters saying they're going to vote for a Republican if Sanders doesn't win the primary. This is certainly something that's happening. There are probably some, just statistically, but as big of a Bernie supporter as you can get and I'm voting for the Democratic nominee in the primary no matter what. I'm actually slightly worried that instead of energizing the base, he'll create apathy if he loses. Hopefully he pulls Clinton enough to the left economically that he can sincerely get his followers to switch to her if necessary.
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Jul 29, 2015 06:06
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Beforehand posted:What is the point of all of the ideological piss-fights at all then, if everyone here is agreeing "Vote Bernie when I can and vote D afterward regardless?" Or are you arguing about differences between "Won't vote D for Hillary" and "Will vote R instead"? I don't know, but if anyone here plans to vote R if their preferred D loses, fess up so I can yell at you.
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Jul 29, 2015 06:07
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Mirthless posted:Anybody remember the lily-white camp of Hillary voters who switched sides to McCain in 2008? I'm going to go ahead and say it wasn't because Obama was too liberal for them. Yeah, I remember both of those voters.
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Jul 29, 2015 06:13
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:It is kind of amazing how people having managed to take the most left wing and progressive candidate to run for President with any actual support in decades, who is running against an architect of the New Democrats third wayism, and make it so that supporting him is the bigoted, anti-minority and anti-women vote. It's kinda telling, isn't it? This is a large part of why I hesitate to describe myself as a Democrat. While Dems are nowhere near as bad as Republicans, they're still infected with the partisan bullshit that causes them to make crazy arguments like that. Also they like to call authentic leftist ideas immature and accuse people who contemplate voting for actual progressive candidates of being childish and naive. See, they're Very Serious People. It's at times like this the siren song of the "BOTH PARTIES ARE THE SAME" school of thought appeals, and I have to stop and remember that the Republican Party's core values are antithetical to the American tradition, and they are actively working to destroy democracy. Nearly every vote I cast for a Democrat is a vote against the Republican, not a sign I respect the Democrat or have any hopes they'll do much productive work.
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Jul 29, 2015 06:16
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:It is kind of amazing how people having managed to take the most left wing and progressive candidate to run for President with any actual support in decades, who is running against an architect of the New Democrats third wayism, and make it so that supporting him is the bigoted, anti-minority and anti-women vote. This reaction doesn't seem to follow from anything I've seen in this thread though. AT WORST, people have worried about Bernie's viability nationally (even if he were to win the D nomination) and chided Bernie supporters on tone. Nobody likes to be told to regulate tone lest they seem racist/sexist, whatever, but I don't think it's a fair leap to suggest that anyone has said Bernie is a bigoted vote.
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Jul 29, 2015 06:21
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Spatula City posted:It's kinda telling, isn't it? This is a large part of why I hesitate to describe myself as a Democrat. While Dems are nowhere near as bad as Republicans, they're still infected with the partisan bullshit that causes them to make crazy arguments like that. Also they like to call authentic leftist ideas immature and accuse people who contemplate voting for actual progressive candidates of being childish and naive. See, they're Very Serious People. It's at times like this the siren song of the "BOTH PARTIES ARE THE SAME" school of thought appeals, and I have to stop and remember that the Republican Party's core values are antithetical to the American tradition, and they are actively working to destroy democracy. I typed up a whole thing, and accidentally deleted it, so numbered list. 1. I don't think it's fair, necessarily, to throw one's hands up and say "both parties are the same" for any real reason. 2. I think this fight is a result of the left's inability to dig in quite like the right. We can sort of come up for reasons for why that might be, but look at Roe/Wade (42 years ago), and the Voting/Civil Rights Acts (at or approaching 50 years ago). Conservatives have no problem dinking and dunking and taking BIG steps only when possible to win the day on ideology. 3. I can see the appeal of "I want to get this thing done as soon as possible because its' morally hosed", but I think there's got to be a better way of having two camps until one of them can win the day. I've found myself more on the "I'll take a centimeter to the left if I think asking for three inches is going to knock me rightward.), but I think that's a viewpoint that necessarily requires more "gently caress it, we're finished" than the other way. 4. This results in the more "Let's just take a step left and be cool with that until we can unfuck some of our issues." camp pissing on the "Nope, this poo poo needs done" camp, and then it's an in-war/piss-fight more than anything. (I think the right gets burned on this, but a lot less because they're already at least 35 years (if we start at Reagan, but probably more) into the work, and they've set themselves up such a nice framework.) EDIT: And here, the issue isn't even quite as bad as that, because everyone seems to agree to go for the big leap, but plenty will be satisfied with even small progress. (Depending on whether and how large the SCOTUS thing is to the person in question).
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Jul 29, 2015 06:31
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My issue isnt with Bernie, I like him. My issues are with the firing squad his supporters form on the internet. I rarely hear anyone say anything about Bernie that is followed by some venom about Hillary. Bernie is cool, and I like his ideas but (imo) there isnt a national platform ready to implement it. Its good that he is priming the stage for the party to go to the left. I like that. But poisoning the well is hosed. Pop on over to the freep thread and watch how they dissolve into cannibalistic free for all as the choices narrow. Even by the time Romney won the primary he was already limping. There was little need for opposition research, the party had already dragged its candidate through the mud. Now you can say "Bernie isnt a DEMON-RAT!!" but here's the truth: He caucuses with the Democrats and is running for the democratic nomination. Quit making GBS threads in the well. If by some wild shift in the electorate Bernie manages to get the nod, he will need the Democrat Machine and Hillary's supporters. bird cooch fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 06:48
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If Bernie loses the primary, I'm voting for Vermin Supreme. I can't bring myself to vote for any of the establishment candidates. I agree that Hillary is preferable to the GOP guys, but she's still terrible. There is a reason so many Americans are disillusioned with the political system. It's not even that I'm being a child and saying that if my guy can't win, I'm going to throw a tantrum and refuse to vote for whoever beats him; it's that until Bernie announced I really had no intention of voting at all in 2016.
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Jul 29, 2015 06:48
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Spatula City posted:It's at times like this the siren song of the "BOTH PARTIES ARE THE SAME" school of thought appeals, and I have to stop and remember that the Republican Party's core values are antithetical to the American tradition, and they are actively working to destroy democracy. I was with you before and after this statement, but if you don't think the Republican Party is sincere in its beliefs then why do you think the democrat party is?
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Jul 29, 2015 06:54
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Mirthless posted:Anybody remember the lily-white camp of Hillary voters who switched sides to McCain in 2008? No.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:07
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:It is kind of amazing how people having managed to take the most left wing and progressive candidate to run for President with any actual support in decades, who is running against an architect of the New Democrats third wayism, and make it so that supporting him is the bigoted, anti-minority and anti-women vote.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:18
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:It is kind of amazing how people having managed to take the most left wing and progressive candidate to run for President with any actual support in decades, who is running against an architect of the New Democrats third wayism, and make it so that supporting him is the bigoted, anti-minority and anti-women vote. Probably because his most ardent and vocal supporters aren't actually taking their cues from his positive, issues-driven campaign and are instead attacking Hillary in ways most likely to make them feel defensive (not to mention taking a lot of cues from frothing-at-the-mouth right-wing media hysteria about her being an evil old hag), while simultaneously declaring if (when) Bernie doesn't win the nomination they'll ignore his endorsement of Hillary and stay home on election day. If you don't live in a swing state then fine, whatever, make your statement, but if through inaction you contribute to letting a Bush take power because "Oh the big parties are bought and paid for what's the difference" then you haven't learned a goddamn thing from the last fifteen years. You want to hold the Supreme Court, and have the rulings overturned be Citizens United and not Roe v. Wade or marriage equality? You want to keep the Iran deal in place instead of launching the biggest, stupidest war yet? You want the DREAM Act instead of the Great Wall of America? Swallow your pride and vote for Hillary if (when) it comes to that.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:23
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Omi-Polari posted:The GOP is awful but conservatives have been saying that the Democratic Party establishment is, in fact, totally cynical and willing to just call people racists or misogynists as a political bludgeon whether or not the charges are true. I think you accidentally put "but" instead of "and" or something. Conservatives whined about the race card during the Charleston church massacre. I'm pretty sure their opinion on race and misogyny issues should be taken with several tons of salt.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:25
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Dolash posted:Probably because his most ardent and vocal supporters aren't actually taking their cues from his positive, issues-driven campaign and are instead attacking Hillary in ways most likely to make them feel defensive (not to mention taking a lot of cues from frothing-at-the-mouth right-wing media hysteria about her being an evil old hag), while simultaneously declaring if (when) Bernie doesn't win the nomination they'll ignore his endorsement of Hillary and stay home on election day. Honestly this post makes me want to vote R, literally everything you're saying is disingenuous and wrong
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Jul 29, 2015 07:30
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Would you say that the people disillusioned by politics as usual and turned off by the Hill-dogg, laying out there ripe for conversion, constitute a... silent majority? Perhaps even a moral one? I do think anyone who seriously claims there are no differences between the Republicans and the Democrats now is an idiot. Are the Democrats where they ought to be? No. Are they a whole lot further away from the shitheads that are the Republican party? Yes. You can claim they aren't good enough - frankly, you're probably right - but no difference? Darth Windu posted:Honestly this post makes me want to vote R, literally everything you're saying is disingenuous and wrong 
Nessus fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jul 29, 2015 |
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Jul 29, 2015 07:30
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All I'm going to say is that my plan from the start has been to push for Bernie until my hands fall off. If he fails, I'll vote for Hillary once. She won't be getting a 2nd term vote from me unless she shows me something more progressive in her 4 years. I'd rather have an overly progressive president that won't see half of their ideas implemented than see another moderate make excuses for poo poo like 2008 and the better-than-nothing approach given to the ACA. I realize with Congress in the state it's in, any Democratic President that leans seriously left is going to have a hard time in office. But jesus I'm loving sick of establishment Democrats lacking the backbone to actually lean left, and it's naive as hell to think that the Republican party won't be able to find SOMEONE in the next four-eight years to better represent them while the Democrats poo poo their diapers as usual. EDIT: Hillary is a bad candidate, and her taking the honor of first female president would be a serious bummer.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:36
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MrWillsauce posted:If Bernie loses the primary, I'm voting for Vermin Supreme. I can't bring myself to vote for any of the establishment candidates. I agree that Hillary is preferable to the GOP guys, but she's still terrible. There is a reason so many Americans are disillusioned with the political system. It's not even that I'm being a child and saying that if my guy can't win, I'm going to throw a tantrum and refuse to vote for whoever beats him; it's that until Bernie announced I really had no intention of voting at all in 2016. You're a dumbass. Next?
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Jul 29, 2015 07:36
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Joementum posted:Bernie has a chance in the sense that quantum possibilities exist. What makes him unelectable?
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Jul 29, 2015 07:37
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Darth Windu posted:Honestly this post makes me want to vote R, literally everything you're saying is disingenuous and wrong Every word he said was right. I was going to post something like that myself.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:42
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Premise 1: Every vote counts, especially in downticket races. Premise 2: There's a difference between Democrats and Republicans. Conclusion: Vote.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:43
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Darth Windu posted:Honestly this post makes me want to vote R, literally everything you're saying is disingenuous and wrong Do you have a rebuttal besides "You can't tell me what to do, neener neener"? Because stow it until you can convince me that Al Gore would've invaded Iraq or appointed Roberts and Alito and voting Nader didn't indirectly enable that.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:45
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Gamma Nerd posted:What makes him unelectable? 1. Minority/woman outreach. He seems to have been working on this at least. 2. Crossover appeal actual as opposed to hypothetical. I'm not going to buy into some reserve army of non-voters waiting for a real true progressive candidate before they emerge en masse to enact The Promised Land, because that narrative is bullshit from left and right alike. 3. How over is he gonna actually get outside of the people in lily-white states who are tuning in to the primary in late July, 2015? I don't know. We'll find out. 4. Will he do principled, honorable, sparkley-eyed things like telling the Democratic party establishment/leadership in Congress to go gently caress themselves, in order to forge a new way beyond politics as usual? (My read is that this leads to him not accomplishing much if anything.) None of these are impossible to overcome but it's a pretty steep hill. (So to speak.)
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Jul 29, 2015 07:48
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Dolash posted:If you don't live in a swing state then fine, whatever, make your statement, but if through inaction you contribute to letting a Bush take power because "Oh the big parties are bought and paid for what's the difference" then you haven't learned a goddamn thing from the last fifteen years. You want to hold the Supreme Court, and have the rulings overturned be Citizens United and not Roe v. Wade or marriage equality? You want to keep the Iran deal in place instead of launching the biggest, stupidest war yet? You want the DREAM Act instead of the Great Wall of America? This is really the core of the matter, and it's not disingenuous or wrong. Abstaining from voting for a reason that you can articulate is a valid strategy as far as participating in democratic politics is concerned. It tends to work best at local levels, since a smaller community makes it easier for those abstaining to make it clear why they're abstaining. Theoretically, though, if enough serious Bernie supporters/leftists want to push Democrats further left, they could stay home and make it very clear that they're not voting for Hillary and are demanding that the party go left more. This only works assuming that there are enough individuals interested in this strategy to actually cost Hillary the election. Given that there almost certainly aren't enough people fitting that description, the whole strategy is a wash. Moreover, there is quite literally no reason to believe a movement of that scale could be effectively organized and executed. It's much more likely that irritable Bernie supporters staying home would, at best, weaken Hillary's margin of victory, and, at worst, cost her the election by a point or three. The latter outcome doesn't exactly send a clear message, either. And then even assuming that the strategy I just outlined actually worked (massive assumption, but let's just go with it for a second), you still have to accept the sort of things that Dolash outlined. Even a four-year window gives a GOP president + Congress time to make key appointments, legislate bad policy, and make diplomatic blunders. If ones of those blunders involves, for example starting a war in which a bunch of people die, is that cost that we could accept in order to create a more leftist Democratic Party through this strategy? I'm no great Hillary fan, but the costs being discussed here almost certainly outweigh any squeamishness over a  vote in any swing state.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:48
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Hilary has made campaign finance reform a plank in her campaign, Hilary has unveiled a pretty neat and ambitious climate plan, Hilary supports raising the minimum wage, Hilary will probably nominate liberal justices, I'm fine voting for Hilary if Bernie burns out I don't understand how people can be so bitter about the objectively most progressive campaign ever run by a major candidate, and I'd like to hear what linchpin issues Hilary Clinton leans so conservative on that I should feel ashamed to vote for her
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Jul 29, 2015 07:50
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quadrophrenic posted:Hilary has made campaign finance reform a plank in her campaign, Hilary has unveiled a pretty neat and ambitious climate plan, Hilary supports raising the minimum wage, Hilary will probably nominate liberal justices, I'm fine voting for Hilary if Bernie burns out Keystone XL. Supporting the oil industry undoes all the effects of her climate plan. 33% of electricity being renewable by 2030 is also not nearly enough mobilization to prevent a catastrophic outcome.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:53
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Nader wouldn't have been as successful if the Democrats had actually addressed the concerns of the left - his success and their loss is entirely the New Democrats fault. Voting for a left wing third party, especially in swing states, is absolutely the right thing to do if you consider yourself a leftist. I will disagree with Bernie when he ends up endorsing Hillary as he has said he would, and would much prefer he ran as a independent, though I understand why he will be doing it.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:54
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Nader wouldn't have been as successful if the Democrats had actually addressed the concerns of the left - his success and their loss is entirely the New Democrats fault. Voting for a left wing third party, especially in swing states, is absolutely the right thing to do if you consider yourself a leftist. I will disagree with Bernie when he ends up endorsing Hillary as he has said he would, and would much prefer he ran as a independent, though I understand why he will be doing it.
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Jul 29, 2015 07:59
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I just don't want to vote for the status quo, and I don't think progressives should settle for the Democratic party. If there were more genuine candidates like Bernie, I'd vote for them if he lost, but I really don't see any other options if he drops out. By the way, I don't really like the posts about Hillary being a shapeshifting lying reptilian either, but she's certainly nowhere near as pure as Bernie. I'll grant that the Republicans are way worse, but not being a Republican isn't good enough for me. This is the first time I've been called a dumbass on Something Awful.
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Jul 29, 2015 08:00
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