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Kim Jong Il posted:Violence is disproportionate because Israel is a rich western country that gets billions in military aid which can only be spent on products from US defense contractors every year, while Hamas's state sponsors have been more interested in shipping Qassams than more advanced military equipment. It's a question of means, and that doesn't imply anything about their intent to commit armed conflict, which remains inherently high, but momentarily sated by getting blown to loving smithereens three times in the past decade. Who started Operation: Cast Lead and Operation: Protective Edge? There's no doubt that plenty of Hamas' government officials don't shed tears over damage to Israel (because of sanctions placed on the Gaza Strip), but the idea that both parties are just as bloodthirsty is at-odds with how the vast majority of these conflicts in the past decade have started.
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Aug 1, 2015 19:58
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Neurolimal posted:Who started Operation: Cast Lead and Operation: Protective Edge? That's not really a useful argument, given that the official Israeli line is that Hamas started both (rockets from Gaza and kidnapping/killing Israeli teenagers, respectively). Yes there's a difference in degree, but you're not going to convince any pro-Israel individual so long as they can point to thing-Hamas-supposedly-did-to-start-it in response to defend their worldview. ComradeCosmobot fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Aug 1, 2015 |
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Aug 1, 2015 20:05
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Oh, Hamas is significantly more bloodthirsty. Israel has shown it's callously indifferent, which is a vastly different thing.
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Aug 1, 2015 20:45
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There were several rallies today to protest the stabbing at last week's Pride Parade, and rampant homophobia generally. The one in Tel Aviv, run by Aguda - The Israel LGBT National Taskforce, decided to add a stipulation to politicians who wish to speak in their rally, to avoid them making a facile attempt at pinkwashing their views: they all had to sign a version of this declaration:  tl;dr: whoever signs this is affirming that they will act against incitement to violence against anyone, and will remember that they also represent the LGBT community, and therefore will act for equal rights for them, long after this specific rally. Bennett and Magal from Jewish Home declined to sign this, and basically left as soon as they arrived. I think they're going to try and paint this as them being targeted, but we have the internet these days. Funniest thing is that when you read the posts on Aguda's Facebook page, a lot of commenters were convinced that this would have absolutely no effect whatsoever. 
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Aug 1, 2015 21:29
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There were several rallies today to protest the stabbing at last week's Pride Parade, and rampant homophobia generally. That's a pretty awesome declaration that I wasn't expecting. Good show @ gay israeli friends
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Aug 1, 2015 21:35
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Kim Jong Il posted:Oh, Hamas is significantly more bloodthirsty. Israel has shown it's callously indifferent, which is a vastly different thing.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:08
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Which of course makes it OK to kill thousands of civilians. The important thing is that they were indifferent about it. "welp killed a bunch of civlians again  "
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Aug 1, 2015 23:11
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Apparently the following has been making the rounds of right-wing social media: This is President Rivlin. The title says: "Reuven Rivlin a traitor kike may his name and memory be erased" This was about the time, 20 years ago, when then Prime Minister Rabin was shown in a kufiya. That November he was assassinated.
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Aug 2, 2015 05:40
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Wait, what did the President do (or not do) that has the right wing so upset?
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Aug 2, 2015 05:56
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RandomPauI posted:Wait, what did the President do (or not do) that has the right wing so upset? He called the burning of innocent Palestinians, including a 18-month-year-old to death, an act of terrorism. He clearly is not patriotic enough, nor does he care enough about Jews, if he dares make such a statement. He consistently and publicly fights racism in Israeli society as far as his ceremonial role would allow, and they really, really don't like that. It's similar to the responses from American Freepers towards Obama's "Black Lives Matter"/"He could have been my son", except they have managed an assassination once.
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Aug 2, 2015 06:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Apparently the following has been making the rounds of right-wing social media: At least they moved up from SS uniforms 
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Aug 2, 2015 07:26
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 In some clash between settlers and the Palestinian villagers they've come to harass yesterday some Israeli policewoman apparently got a little too close to the action and got a bit scared, two palestinian villagers offered to shield her with their bodies. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 13:33 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 12:25
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Kim Jong Il posted:Oh, Hamas is significantly more bloodthirsty. Israel has shown it's callously indifferent, which is a vastly different thing. Israel gets way too  over little poo poo to be called indifferent.
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Aug 2, 2015 12:42
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
oh no policewoman!!! the palestinians, who don't have Sure deodorant thanks to Israeli blockade, are assaulting you with their unsure body odor!!!
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Aug 2, 2015 13:27
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Kim Jong Il posted:Oh, Hamas is significantly more bloodthirsty. Israel has shown it's callously indifferent, which is a vastly different thing. Really? How so? They seem pretty much identical to me, the more media friendly veneer the IDF has aside. When you have people gunning down unarmed civilians running away from them or sniping civilians looking to try and find their relatives in the wake of a bombing, you can't really say that's not bloodthirsty. Though some of it is probably relatively detached, the artillery bombardments, the same can be said for the firing of rockets. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 13:28
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One of the victims of the stabbing at the parade in Jerusalem has succumbed to her wounds. Schlisel will surely get multiple life sentences now.
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Aug 2, 2015 16:05
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And she was 16, too. He's going to spend the rest of his life in jail I hope.
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Aug 2, 2015 17:15
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
I think various Israeli posters in this thread have mentioned that the Settlers aren't particularly liked among the rest of the Israeli populace. Is there a chance that poo poo like this could turn public sentiment against the settlements enough for people to do something?
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Aug 2, 2015 17:39
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no
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Aug 2, 2015 17:39
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If I had to venture a guess, most Israeli posters ITT are upper middle class men who come from a secular background, mostly living in upper middle class towns and most likely specifically in Tel-Aviv, our opinions are hardly representative of anything that occurs outside 'the state of tel-aviv'. Settlers are very popular among considerable segments of the israeli public, everyone who votes likud and rightward loving loves settlers.
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Aug 2, 2015 17:43
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How do Likud and further right-wing parties fare among younger Israelis? I know there was a depressive atmosphere of "even the liberal youth despise palestine" during the big Protective Edge anti-leftist protests (the ones with the nazi imagery), but I have a naive hope that, overall, the younger generation are more receptive to genuine peace.
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Aug 2, 2015 17:50
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emanresu tnuocca posted:If I had to venture a guess, most Israeli posters ITT are upper middle class men who come from a secular background, mostly living in upper middle class towns and most likely specifically in Tel-Aviv, our opinions are hardly representative of anything that occurs outside 'the state of tel-aviv'. Settlers are very popular among considerable segments of the israeli public, everyone who votes likud and rightward loving loves settlers. I'm not entirely sure but I think most Israeli posters here don't live in Israel at the moment either? Neurolimal posted:How do Likud and further right-wing parties fare among younger Israelis? I know there was a depressive atmosphere of "even the liberal youth despise palestine" during the big Protective Edge anti-leftist protests (the ones with the nazi imagery), but I have a naive hope that, overall, the younger generation are more receptive to genuine peace. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/poll-half-of-israeli-high-schoolers-oppose-equal-rights-for-arabs-1.264564 quote:Nearly half of Israel's high school students do not believe that Israeli-Arabs are entitled to the same rights as Jews in Israel, according to the results of a new survey released yesterday. The same poll revealed that more than half the students would deny Arabs the right to be elected to the Knesset. The ultra-orthodox have more kids  EDIT: Death threats to Rivlin: http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/1.669104 DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 18:10
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(double)
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Aug 2, 2015 18:14
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DarkCrawler posted:I'm not entirely sure but I think most Israeli posters here don't live in Israel at the moment either? I don't think that's true but I'm not gonna start running tallies of 'known israeli posters' and the such. Near the elections most Israelis around here posted that they were in the country to vote (for Meretz mostly) and I assume most didn't just happen to fly to the country for the elections.
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Aug 2, 2015 18:34
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I don't think that's true but I'm not gonna start running tallies of 'known israeli posters' and the such. Near the elections most Israelis around here posted that they were in the country to vote (for Meretz mostly) and I assume most didn't just happen to fly to the country for the elections. True.
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Aug 2, 2015 19:00
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Neurolimal posted:How do Likud and further right-wing parties fare among younger Israelis? I know there was a depressive atmosphere of "even the liberal youth despise palestine" during the big Protective Edge anti-leftist protests (the ones with the nazi imagery), but I have a naive hope that, overall, the younger generation are more receptive to genuine peace. I think the younger generation are even more far-right, overall? There's not a whole lot of pro-Palestinian rhetoric floating around in Israel and the kids are the ones most vulnerable to the massive amounts of right-wing rhetoric in Israel, particularly in the more devoted and enclosed right-wing groups like the Haredi and the settler extremists, where children are basically indoctrinated into hatred. Although the culprits of right-wing violence are rarely positively identified, when they are caught they almost always seem to be on the younger end of the population. The oldest of the suspects in June's burning of a historic church is 20 years old; the rest range from 15 to 19 years of age. Of the three Israelis on trial for burning a Palestinian teen alive last year, two of them were teenagers. Yitzhak Rabin's assassin was in his twenties. Contrary to what younger Americans seem to believe, racism and hatred are not perpetuated solely by angry old men who watch Fox News all day - no, not even in the US.
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Aug 3, 2015 16:20
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Main Paineframe posted:I think the younger generation are even more far-right, overall? There's not a whole lot of pro-Palestinian rhetoric floating around in Israel and the kids are the ones most vulnerable to the massive amounts of right-wing rhetoric in Israel, particularly in the more devoted and enclosed right-wing groups like the Haredi and the settler extremists, where children are basically indoctrinated into hatred. Perpetrated, no. Perpetuated, certainly.
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Aug 3, 2015 17:33
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:I think various Israeli posters in this thread have mentioned that the Settlers aren't particularly liked among the rest of the Israeli populace. Is there a chance that poo poo like this could turn public sentiment against the settlements enough for people to do something? Pretty much, the current theory is that Israel is denouncing the attacks to make themselves more presentable looking to the ICC.
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Aug 3, 2015 20:43
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CommieGIR posted:Pretty much, the current theory is that Israel is denouncing the attacks to make themselves more presentable looking to the ICC. Thinking the ICC has anything to do with it is really farfetched. It's pretty much just that despite the Israeli public's massive shift to the right, things still haven't got to the point where a politician can go out shout "YES! BURN THE CHILD!" to the cheers of the crowd. I'd give it 3-4 more election cycles. Bear Retrieval Unit fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 21:16
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:Thinking the ICC has anything to do with it is really farfetched. It's pretty much just that despite the Israeli public's massive shift to the right, things still haven't got to the point where a politician can go out shout "YES! BURN THE CHILD!" to the cheers of the crowd. I'd give it 3-4 more election cycles. The fringe Kahanists like Dov Lior and Benzi Gopstein are pretty much doing exactly that already, and moving left one tick in the right-wing crazytrain, you have settler figures like Bezalel Smotrich saying that the attacks were unforgivable but really guys, did you have to provoke them by razing those (illegally built on stolen land empty) buildings? Moving one tick left from THAT you have this fine column from Israel's Tom Friedman, Haim Shine, which somehow managed to turn the murders into a crazy funhouse mirror glorifying the Chosen People. I'm not kidding. http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_opinion.php?id=13369 quote:The ability to fulfill the "Greater Israel' vision depends on maintaining law and order in Judea and Samaria. The nations of the world examine the settlement enterprise with a magnifying glass. They are just waiting for an opportunity to claim that Israel cannot ensure the safety of the Palestinians who live in these liberated areas. liberated areas quote:There is no other country in the world where the president and the prime minister would make hospital visits to the survivors of such an incident. Yes, Israel is literally the only country where political leaders visit the victims of terrorist attacks. Literally no other country in the world does this. Nope. quote:There are few other countries in the world in which the homosexuals can live with unfettered rights as they do in Israel. the homosexuals
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Aug 3, 2015 21:37
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:Thinking the ICC has anything to do with it is really farfetched. It's pretty much just that despite the Israeli public's massive shift to the right, things still haven't got to the point where a politician can go out shout "YES! BURN THE CHILD!" to the cheers of the crowd. I'd give it 3-4 more election cycles. Pretty much, when it comes to right wing views there's a fair gap between 'the scary Palestinians need to stay on their side' and 'BURN THE BABY AHAHAHAHAHA YES'. Like, I don't have trouble believing most of the people, even the anti-Palestinian ones, saying 'woah what the gently caress these guys are monsters' genuinely believe that and it's not some elaborate show for the ICC
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Aug 3, 2015 23:33
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Bear Retrieval Unit posted:Thinking the ICC has anything to do with it is really farfetched. It's pretty much just that despite the Israeli public's massive shift to the right, things still haven't got to the point where a politician can go out shout "YES! BURN THE CHILD!" to the cheers of the crowd. I'd give it 3-4 more election cycles. Assimilation to regional norms is inevitable, eh?
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Aug 3, 2015 23:47
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Not really what that post was saying, at least that's not what I took from it. Are you somehow conflating the general horror and despair of middle eastern countries with the sea change in israeli politics/society? Sorry if that wasn't your intention but if it was isn't it pretty cynical to use that as a pretext for the hardening of attitudes of even 'doveish' figures like herzog or rabin back in the day? Pretty much every country adjacent to israel has been attacked by the IDF or at least got shock and awed by the IAF. There's obviously more to it than israel's foreign policy, although it should at least be understood these things don't happen in a vacuum.
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Aug 4, 2015 00:37
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Ultramega posted:Not really what that post was saying, at least that's not what I took from it. Are you somehow conflating the general horror and despair of middle eastern countries with the sea change in israeli politics/society? Sorry if that wasn't your intention but if it was isn't it pretty cynical to use that as a pretext for the hardening of attitudes of even 'doveish' figures like herzog or rabin back in the day? Pretty much every country adjacent to israel has been attacked by the IDF or at least got shock and awed by the IAF. There's obviously more to it than israel's foreign policy, although it should at least be understood these things don't happen in a vacuum. And every one of Israel's neighbors has attacked it. I agree that Israeli public opinion and politics are shifting hard to the right, but as you note, these things don't happen in a vacuum.
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Aug 4, 2015 01:29
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TheImmigrant posted:And every one of Israel's neighbors has attacked it. I agree that Israeli public opinion and politics are shifting hard to the right, but as you note, these things don't happen in a vacuum. It's hard to think of many countries where every one of their neighbors has not attacked it. The US has had every one of its neighbors attack it.
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Aug 4, 2015 18:19
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uninterrupted posted:It's hard to think of many countries where every one of their neighbors has not attacked it. Well you know the UK still keeps its nuclear weapons because of France right. edit: sorry, Yes Prime Minister joke. NLJP fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 20:17
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uninterrupted posted:It's hard to think of many countries where every one of their neighbors has not attacked it. And the US has enjoyed a century and a half of peace with both, other than the Pancho Villa thing.
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Aug 4, 2015 20:20
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uninterrupted posted:It's hard to think of many countries where every one of their neighbors has not attacked it. Come, now. There's plenty to say in favor of the Palestinian cause without comparing the 1948 war to the 1846 Mexican-American war with respect to their influence on current public opinion. quote:Yes Prime Minister joke Bibi Netanyahu facts, #34: Bibi Netanyahu can make a courageous decision and still win the election Triple Elation fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 20:24
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Meir Kahane's grandson arrested for planning on carrying out a bunch of attacks so as to collapse the state and rebuild it in the extreme right-wing nationalist vision. For the love of god, don't read the comments 
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Aug 4, 2015 20:32
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suboptimal posted:Meir Kahane's grandson arrested for planning on carrying out a bunch of attacks so as to collapse the state and rebuild it in the extreme right-wing nationalist vision. I read them and they weren't too bad (for the internet anyways).
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