I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

oh no someone attacked Defense Minister Moshe Ya�alon!

it was a Jew so nobody got arrested

Holy poo poo, that's not just any Jew, that's self-proclaimed former right-hand-man to Meir Kahane Baruch Marzel! If anybody should be on the shortlist for administrative detention, he's the one. I can't believe they didn't even arrest him. Yes I can.

# ? Aug 11, 2015 22:28

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 03:13

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

You forgot about plucky Jordan

And Iraq. And the revisionist portrayal of evil bellicose Israel attacking poor, peace-loving Syria and Egypt and Jordan in '67.

CommieGIR posted:

Because they feel it should be a Jew only holy site. They've also started arresting Muslims who try to go there to pray.

Pretty sure there aren't going to be too many devout Muslims making pilgrimages to either the tomb of King David or the site of the Last Supper, so "they" probably aren't arresting Muslims who attempt to do so. Or are you referring to some other site?

# ? Aug 12, 2015 00:27

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

And Iraq. And the revisionist portrayal of evil bellicose Israel attacking poor, peace-loving Syria and Egypt and Jordan in '67.

What makes Israeli preemptive defense legitimate, but not Japanese preemptive defense?

# ? Aug 12, 2015 00:33

The Insect Court: Nov 22, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

Effectronica posted:

What makes Israeli preemptive defense legitimate, but not Japanese preemptive defense?

Have you been reading stuff from the IHR like Tezzor, making this a sincere reflection of some creepy red-brown Buchananite-style revisionism on WWII? Because if it's just rhetorical I don't really need to explain to you that the United States was not massing armed forces on the borders of Japan after expelling international peacekeepers amidst increasing bellicose calls for the annihilation of Japan? Needless to say, a strong consensus of mainstream scholarship is against you in both cases.

Effectronica posted:

So in other words, you have no principles whatsoever?

For those following along who are actually interested in the answer to a question that was posed in bad faith, and in a way so simple not even you could misinterpret it, Israel on the eve of the 67 war and Japan on the eve of Pearl Harbor are fundamentally different situations and thus one is a textbook case of preemptive war while the latter can only somewhat generously be called a case of preventative war(and not a just war in any case). Points for originality in equating Israel with Imperial Japan instead of the same ol' :godwin:

I guess.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 12, 2015 00:41

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

The Insect Court posted:

Have you been reading stuff from the IHR like Tezzor, making this a sincere reflection of some creepy red-brown Buchananite-style revisionism on WWII? Because if it's just rhetorical I don't really need to explain to you that the United States was not massing armed forces on the borders of Japan after expelling international peacekeepers amidst increasing bellicose calls for the annihilation of Japan? Needless to say, a strong consensus of mainstream scholarship is against you in both cases.

So in other words, you have no principles whatsoever?

# ? Aug 12, 2015 00:52

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Holy poo poo, that's not just any Jew, that's self-proclaimed former right-hand-man to Meir Kahane Baruch Marzel! If anybody should be on the shortlist for administrative detention, he's the one. I can't believe they didn't even arrest him. Yes I can.

He attacked him with his voice.
If an arab or a druze had done this, A)they would be dead, and their house would be bulldozed hopefully without their family members in it, B)people would flock to social media to voice their support for the killing of a filthy terrorist and how justified it was because WORDS CAN HURT AND KILL.

Ultramega fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Aug 12, 2015

# ? Aug 12, 2015 05:20

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0IWkYMX3s

# ? Aug 12, 2015 12:10

Avshalom: Feb 14, 2012; by Lowtax

Jews. (In a good way.)

# ? Aug 12, 2015 12:33

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

Pretty sure he's christian.

# ? Aug 12, 2015 12:52

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

emanresu tnuocca posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0IWkYMX3s

professional click zone

# ? Aug 12, 2015 12:56

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

It looks like the recent Jewish terrorism attacks may have already done irreparable damage, and that the recent crack down may be too little and far too late. There's been numerous reports lately of Palestinian villages forming night watch organizations and vigilante squads, dedicated to guarding their villages against settler attacks as well as detecting and chasing off settler terrorists before they can commit more arsons or other attacks. It's a dangerous situation - these are organized groups that are not subject to any higher authority, nor do they really trust the authorities, on either the Israeli or Palestinian side. There's considerable risk of some of these groups radicalizing, and if they then link up and remain organized it could become a national movement that poses a serious threat to the Abbas regime or nearby settlements.

http://nytimes.com/2015/08/04/world/middleeast/palestinian-vigilante-effort-marks-stark-change-in-west-bank.html

quote:

Early one recent morning, a few residents of this sleepy hilltop hamlet heard that Jewish settlers were hurling rocks at a house. Almost instantly they started posting messages on Facebook, rousing neighbors — then somebody’s brother called a friend, who called his cousin, who called the Muslim preacher, who rushed to the mosque, flicked on a megaphone rigged to the minaret and shouted:

“Citizens must gather to repel the settlers!” said Hatem Dawabsheh, a Duma resident, recalling the early Sunday morning episode. “It was faster than Facebook,” he laughed. “Everybody heard it at the same time.”

Tens of Duma’s young men headed into the olive orchards, using their cellphones for illumination and wooden broomsticks for protection, hoping their presence had shooed the attackers away.

The impromptu vigilante effort underscored a stark change in this West Bank village after Jewish extremists were suspected of firebombing a house on Friday, killing an 18-month-old boy, Ali Dawabsheh, and severely burning his parents and 4-year-old brother. Duma, an isolated village, had long ago found a peaceful accommodation in an otherwise tense area. Its residents helped build nearby settlements, taking jobs in construction, and were not very involved in issues of governance and local politics.

But now, with a mixture of anger and ambivalence, they run security patrols — and clash with Israeli forces. With newfound vigor, they loudly criticize their Palestinian representatives, furious that officials co-opted the slain child’s funeral to appear instead as a festival of allegiance to the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas.

Now, some speak of uprising.

“Can we explode against the occupation, without exploding against the authority?” asked Mohammad Dawabsheh, 32 (most residents of the hamlet share the same family name). “No. You don’t fix your garden before fixing the house,” he said.

But this shift — to lashing out, to vigilante patrols, to vociferously condemning Palestinian governance — is bleeding out across the West Bank amid rising frustration. Weary of conflict after the violence of their second intifada, Palestinians speak of deep unease over the future, and despair with their present.

Peace talks have been stalled for years, and Palestinian efforts to hold Israel accountable in international forums — particularly the International Criminal Court — are unlikely to bring results in the near future. The Palestinian government, led by Mr. Abbas, 10 years into what was supposed to be a five-year term, is increasingly seen as neglectful and corrupt.

Justice in local courts is equally elusive. The Israeli rights group Yesh Din reported in May that the prospects of a Palestinian complaint leading to criminal conviction are just 1.9 percent. The group, which investigates law enforcement in the West Bank, estimated that 85.3 percent of all investigative files were closed because of “the failure of the police investigators to locate suspects or to find sufficient evidence to enable indictment.”

“There’s no clear message to enforce the law and protect Palestinians,” said Ziv Stahl, the director of Yesh Din’s research department. Palestinians “tell us they don’t even want to bother to file with the police, and basically they are right.”

In tit-for-tat violence, on Monday, assailants thought to be Palestinians hurled a firebomb into a vehicle in an Arab neighborhood of East Jerusalem, moderately wounding the driver, who lost control of her vehicle and crashed into another car, said Luba Samri, an Israeli police spokeswoman.

Some fear the specter of another uprising is inching closer with each fatal shooting of a Palestinian by Israeli forces — six in recent weeks — and with each attack by extremist Jews.

“We throw stones because nobody has guns,” said Moustafa, 18, in the Jalazoun refugee camp, where mourners were holding a wake for a teenager who was fatally shot in a clash with Israeli soldiers on Friday. He and other protesters commented on the situation under the condition of only providing their first names.

“If we had any encouragement at all,” said his friend, Amir, 20, “all of us would rise up.”

In Duma, the first protest against Israel came on Saturday, a day after the arson attack, when dozens of youths, hurling rocks and burning tires, clashed with Israeli soldiers.

“The elders told us to go demonstrate,” said another young man, who sat with his friends at Duma’s elementary school, transformed into a large mourning tent, as Palestinian dignitaries gave speeches, largely ignored by a sweating crowd on a recent blazing summer’s day.

“If this happened a month ago, only 15 people would have turned up, and the old people would have told us to stay home,” he said.

Instead, the youths have taken up the all-too-familiar pattern of throwing rocks and dodging security forces. Moustafa and Amir headed to a junction near a Jewish settlement, where they were met by another young Palestinian. With a red scarf wrapped around his face, and a rock clutched in one hand, he directed vehicles away with the other. About a dozen other youths waited, projectiles handy, to hurl at khaki-clad Israeli soldiers who shimmered behind a wall of smoke from a burning tire.

“I am afraid that such a situation will breed very unpredictable circumstances,” said Basem Ezbidi, a professor of political science at Birzeit University who is currently lecturing at Qatar University.

Mr. Ezbidi said Mr. Abbas would move forcefully against any Palestinian attempt to ignite a conflict with Israel, but also noted Palestinians could easily rise up against Mr. Abbas. “The anger is against the authority.”

In Duma, Palestinians shrugged when they heard their government planned to file a suit with the International Criminal Court over the arson.

“How will it help us?” asked a man who sat with his friends at the elementary school. “They can send all the files they want, but who will protect us here?”

The Dawabsheh family were not Fatah supporters; their neighbors described them as Islamists. The grandmother of the dead child, Rihab, 66, described the family as devout Muslims. Her husband was the village’s preacher for 35 years, until he lost his vision, and she learned to read at 59, spending her days reciting the Quran to her blind husband.

Yet the villagers also reached out in ways that contradicted their newfound anger, indicating their weariness and ambivalence toward escalation. It suggested the push-and-pull of residents who, unused to the hard politics of Palestinian nationalism, basically hoped for a peaceful resolution to their problems.

The group of friends said they intended to present a list of services they needed to the Palestinian Authority-sponsored village council, hoping for a response.

The village even hosted religious Jewish Israelis in the funeral tent, showing them the burned-down house where the arson attack occurred.

“I feel pain, sadness” said Mordechai Zeller, 35, a skullcap-wearing resident of Maale Gilboa, a religious kibbutz. “I thought of my own children,” he said, as a line of women wearing black face veils and robes walked past.

The sight of religious Israelis in other villages would be startling, particularly after such a violent attack, but not in Duma, even in the wake of the attack. The visitors were left alone, even though one of the veiled women who had walked past, Alaa Dawabsheh, 34, said she believed Jews had no place in her homeland.

Members of the Dawabsheh family reached out to Israelis: The dead child’s uncle spoke at a rally in Tel Aviv condemning violence, and his grandfather wrote an op-ed for the Israeli daily Yediot Ahronoth, begging that his grandson Ali be “the last victim of this terror war.”

“We are simple people, who pursue and want peace,” wrote Hussein Dawabsheh. “For God’s sake, enough. How much longer? We want life.”

# ? Aug 12, 2015 14:48

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

The only thing that surprises me is that it's happening now instead of, say, 60 years ago.

# ? Aug 12, 2015 15:12

ToxicAcne: May 25, 2014

Soooo.... Third Intifada?

# ? Aug 13, 2015 01:19

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

What will that accomplish beyond a lot of fatalities and ceding more land to Israel?

# ? Aug 13, 2015 01:51

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

It's kind of sick to hope for a third intifada; plenty of hawks in the knesset and the IDF general staff are probably itching for a reason to mow the grass one more time. The question I'm asking myself is jesus christ how much longer is the boot going to continue stomping on this face? Obviously the answer is forever.

# ? Aug 13, 2015 02:03

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Kim Jong Il posted:

What will that accomplish beyond a lot of fatalities and ceding more land to Israel?

Is there anything the Palestinians could do that would not result in ceding more land to Israel?

# ? Aug 13, 2015 10:24

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

ToxicAcne posted:

Soooo.... Third Intifada?

Not unless a Palestinian civil war happens first. Abbas will crack down, hard, on any mass violence that happens without his approval, and the population knows it. There might be an upswing in terrorism and more clashes against settlers, but any organized violent resistance movement not controlled by Fatah is probably going to end up fighting the PA security forces more often than the IDF.

The problem is, that might just happen. There's plenty of quotes in the article suggesting that the vigilantes think Abbas needs to go (not surprising; his popularity isn't the greatest and he hasn't handled the arson attack well at all), and Abbas will not tolerate an armed group in the West Bank that doesn't answer to him. If these vigilantes organize into a larger movement, Abbas has far more reason to worry than the settlers do, at least at first.

A bigger worry than either of those right now, though, is what the Israeli extremists will do in response to the sudden crackdown on Jewish terrorism. The principle of "price tag" attacks, after all, is to show that any attempt to move against the interests of the Israeli far-right will be punished by an escalation in terrorist attacks. It's been too quiet lately.

Main Paineframe fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Aug 13, 2015

# ? Aug 13, 2015 16:26

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Main Paineframe posted:

A bigger worry than either of those right now, though, is what the Israeli extremists will do in response to the sudden crackdown on Jewish terrorism. The principle of "price tag" attacks, after all, is to show that any attempt to move against the interests of the Israeli far-right will be punished by an escalation in terrorist attacks. It's been too quiet lately.

Well, do keep in mind that they've started using administrative detention on suspected Jewish terrorists, and have already applied it to some, putting them in the hole for six months, so that might actually have pushed some of the rest into hiding.

# ? Aug 13, 2015 16:54

CommieGIR: Aug 22, 2006; The blue glow is a feature, not a bug; Pillbug

Absurd Alhazred posted:

Well, do keep in mind that they've started using administrative detention on suspected Jewish terrorists, and have already applied it to some, putting them in the hole for six months, so that might actually have pushed some of the rest into hiding.

What's with the sudden change in the Israeli attitude? Are they worried about an Intifada that badly?

# ? Aug 13, 2015 16:58

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

CommieGIR posted:

What's with the sudden change in the Israeli attitude? Are they worried about an Intifada that badly?

I think it's the combination of the stabbing at Jerusalem Pride (ending in the death of an Israeli Jew, but also exposing rank incompetence in policing) with the burning of Ali Saad Dawabsha, a literal baby, less than a week after violent resistance to demolition of doubly-illegal settler homes. It combines a fear of the PA not being able to contain an intifada, with that of the (Jewish) public losing all confidence in the authorities` ability to keep them safe, or their soldiers. Add to that the failure to stop the Iran deal, and the government just really needed to show some form of capacity for action, and putting people behind bars is their go-to, due process be damned.

# ? Aug 13, 2015 17:10

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

You have to hand it to israel though. through multiple governments, labor, likud, etc. they've demonstrated a profound disregard for due process and reasonable doubt. That article had me thinking, how do arabic family names pass to other members of families? Pretty much everyone quoted in that article had the surname dawabsheh. They obviously aren't all relatives of THE dawabsheh's who were the victims of jewish terror. Really ignorant of arabic culture, sorry.

# ? Aug 13, 2015 17:48

emanresu tnuocca: Sep 2, 2011; by Athanatos

It's a tribe/clan name, it's rather common in arabic societies from what I gather. In many cities and villages there's often one prominent family name shared by a significant portion of the population, I guess they often trace their ancestry to one common ancestor a couple of centuries ago. I've tried to make this post not sound like orientalist garbage but I am not sure I succeeded? It's a thing.

Anyway, as for the perceived change in Israeli policy, I'd say first let's wait to see whether anything actually changed, cause arresting a couple of extremists who actively call for the fall of the Israeli government isn't really that noteworhy other than those extremists growing bolder. In general I'd say it's pretty obvious that Israeli policy irt to the west bank encourages land seizures but would prefer keeping the unsightly violence of the 'burning toddlers' variety to a minimum, unless you burn the toddlers with a hellfire missile cause that's different for some reason. It's all about keeping up appearances, it's necessary for Israel to be able to pretend on some level that the settlements are necessary to protect Israeli citizens, once it appears as though it's necessary to protect the palestinians from the settlers (in a manner that can't be readily denied) people start asking questions.

emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Aug 14, 2015

# ? Aug 13, 2015 18:33

Triple Elation: Feb 24, 2012; 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = -1

Israeli views on dead and miserable Palestinians are divided into three camps, generally speaking. The "lol gently caress the Palestinians" camp, the "dammit that's horrible but those are the realities of war" camp, and the "dammit that's horrible period, we are on Israel's side but stop doing this no matter the implications" camp.

The three camps are engaged in a constant propaganda war, which is in many ways mirrored in foreign policy and global discourse. Of course you have various additional camps even less sympathetic to Israel who sometimes like to meddle in the debate and concern troll (a long time ago, in an older iteration of this thread, I managed to get some guy to admit to me once - excuse me if I paraphrase - that "Yeah, I talk about the '67 borders but that's just a convenient tactic, I don't see any legitimacy for a Jewish state to exist at all, in whatever borders. Who the gently caress cares about being honest in a hosed up situation like this? The cause of unmaking Israel as it is today to make life better for the Palestinians justifies the means").

The balance of power between those three groups has a huge influence on Israeli politics and Israel's international image. It's true that a lot of people don't see the big difference between the burning baby incident and, say, the entirety of Operation Tzuk Eitan. The 'gently caress the Palestinians' group doesn't see any such difference - to them it's all fair game. The "dammit that's horrible period" camp and any camp less sympathetic to Israel than that (including the consensus in this thread) doesn't see any difference either - to them, both are heinous crimes against humanity.

To surmise: if the entire world were comprised of Kahanists and SA posters, cracking down on Jewish terrorism would make no sense. But that's not the case, because you have the "such are the realities of war" group. Again I know you guys find that whole attitude ridiculous and laughable but since it's Likud making that decision and not you, try looking at it from Likud's perspective.

Do you have "such are the realities of war" Israelis? Yes - lay down the Israeli political parties on a spectrum and at the very least anyone between the center of Likud and the center of Labor falls in that camp. That's enough electoral power for 40 knesset seats, a full third of the Israeli Parliament. This is huge - it's a pressure group you do not want to alienate (ask Labor, they'll tell you: They have literally stopped putting the prospect of peace on the front of their campaigns because this group has acquired a knee-jerk negative reaction to that rhetoric during the last two decades). Let's do a rough estimate and say that half of Likud's power is coming from this group - from people who think that Labor is wishy-washy and naive, and that Tzuk Eitan was fully justified with all its consequences, but draw the line at "lol let's kill Palestinian civilians and make their lives hell as revenge for something they didn't even do". Does Likud want to risk a schism with this voter base? No, it does not. In 2006, exactly because of such a schism, Likud got kicked down to a meager 12 seats and seemed on the way out of the stage of history. It took a very drawn out sequence of events to pull Bibi back into the fold of this group and allow him his comeback (Namely: The fallout of the disengagement plan and the rise of Hamas in Gaza; Sharon's demise; and the Deterioration of Kadima under Olmert, particularly the handling of the Second Lebanon War which was, in the Israeli public eye, an inexcusable fumble).

Do you have "such are the realities of war" non-Israelis? Yes - I'd go as far as to say that this ethos is a main pillar of Israeli foreign policy and, ah, "Hasbara". So, yes, Bibi will compromise that ethos to hell and back as long as he feels that in so doing, he has something to gain. But if and when he starts feeling the ground shaking under his feet from the other direction - if he sees the "Israel kills Palestinians because it must" camp within and outside Israel waking up and saying in a discontent, groggy tone "wait, what the gently caress" - you bet he's going to do whatever needs to be done to put them back to sleep and keep his hands on the reins of gov't.

And there's no wake up call quite like a burning Palestinian baby.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 12:06

Zanzibar Ham: Mar 17, 2009; You giving me the cold shoulder? How cruel.; Grimey Drawer

Triple Elation posted:

Israeli views on dead and miserable Palestinians are divided into three camps, generally speaking. The "lol gently caress the Palestinians" camp, the "dammit that's horrible but those are the realities of war" camp, and the "dammit that's horrible period, we are on Israel's side but stop doing this no matter the implications" camp.

Can you explain what you mean by 'we are on Israel's side'? You mean physically in that they live in Israel, or in that they think Israel is mostly in the right? Or something else?

# ? Aug 14, 2015 12:11

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

Zanzibar Ham posted:

Can you explain what you mean by 'we are on Israel's side'? You mean physically in that they live in Israel, or in that they think Israel is mostly in the right? Or something else?

Probably the Israel has the right to exist and should continue to be a Jewish state, but if at all possible, without all the murder the oppression?

Personally I think Israel is hosed either way. You can't be both a democratic state and a jewish state. It just doesn't work together. Pick one and stick with it. Personally I'd love a complete seperation of church and state Israel in which Palestinians are given the exact same rights as Israelis and covers the west bank and gaza. That's never going to happen though.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 12:23

Triple Elation: Feb 24, 2012; 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = -1

Zanzibar Ham posted:

Can you explain what you mean by 'we are on Israel's side'? You mean physically in that they live in Israel, or in that they think Israel is mostly in the right? Or something else?

They don't necessarily live in Israel. They support Zionism in its most stripped-down definition - the existence of Israel as a 'home for the Jewish people' in some form, though the implementation details vary. Among this group these details will veer very close, and even properly arrive at, "Jewish nominally, equally everyone's in practice" territory. They support total separation of religion and state, they abhor the occupation, they despise Bibi possibly more than any other person in history (to a friend speaking to me I'd say, half-in-jest, 'including Hitler', but this is a serious discussion thread so I won't). Politically I'm talking about the left fringe of labor, Meretz, possibly some right fringe of Hadash still nominally sympathetic to Zionism on a "there there, it can still be a thing" level, and most of everything/everyone with ties to the New Israel Fund. It's this camp that gave a huge push to topple Bibi's regime last election and up until the last minute was really honestly convinced they were going to succeed. I mean, political streams to the right of them got dragged into it also, but the "stoppit dammit" guys were the driving force.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 12:23

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Triple Elation posted:

Israeli views on dead and miserable Palestinians are divided into three camps, generally speaking. The "lol gently caress the Palestinians" camp, the "dammit that's horrible but those are the realities of war" camp, and the "dammit that's horrible period, we are on Israel's side but stop doing this no matter the implications" camp.

That first camp is the plurality and only getting bigger with time since they are a majority in the younger generations.

Triple Elation posted:

I managed to get some guy to admit to me once - excuse me if I paraphrase - that "Yeah, I talk about the '67 borders but that's just a convenient tactic, I don't see any legitimacy for a Jewish state to exist at all, in whatever borders. Who the gently caress cares about being honest in a hosed up situation like this? The cause of unmaking Israel as it is today to make life better for the Palestinians justifies the means").

It's a valid point. Israel as it is today is based on the oppression of Palestinians both as a mean and as an objective; and current forecast is that it is only going to get worse tomorrow. As for the legitimacy of a state defined entirely by racial supremacism and theocracy; it's hard to conciliate it with modern liberal ideals such as "human rights" and "democracy".

# ? Aug 14, 2015 12:38

Zanzibar Ham: Mar 17, 2009; You giving me the cold shoulder? How cruel.; Grimey Drawer

Triple Elation posted:

They don't necessarily live in Israel. They support Zionism in its most stripped-down definition - the existence of Israel as a 'home for the Jewish people' in some form, though the implementation details vary. Among this group these details will veer very close, and even properly arrive at, "Jewish nominally, equally everyone's in practice" territory. They support total separation of religion and state, they abhor the occupation, they despise Bibi possibly more than any other person in history (to a friend speaking to me I'd say, half-in-jest, 'including Hitler', but this is a serious discussion thread so I won't). Politically I'm talking about the left fringe of labor, Meretz, possibly some right fringe of Hadash still nominally sympathetic to Zionism on a "there there, it can still be a thing" level, and most of everything/everyone with ties to the New Israel Fund. It's this camp that gave a huge push to topple Bibi's regime last election and up until the last minute was really honestly convinced they were going to succeed. I mean, political streams to the right of them got dragged into it also, but the "stoppit dammit" guys were the driving force.

What about people who think that a Jewish state is important, but it doesn't necessarily have to be in the Land of Israel (in theory, though I really don't know where else it could be now, since all habitable places in the world are already inhabited I'd assume, even if it didn't stop us before)?

# ? Aug 14, 2015 12:56

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Miftan posted:

Probably the Israel has the right to exist and should continue to be a Jewish state, but if at all possible, without all the murder the oppression?

So in your opinion, what are the acceptable methods of maintaining an ethnic state? Can we cross of forced population transfer, apartheid, and forced sterilization?

# ? Aug 14, 2015 12:57

Miftan: Mar 31, 2012; Terry knows what he can do with his bloody chocolate orange...

ANIME AKBAR posted:

So in your opinion, what are the acceptable methods of maintaining an ethnic state? Can we cross of forced population transfer, apartheid, and forced sterilization?

I was replying to Zanzibar Ham's question. This isn't my personal view. See the next sentence in my post.

Miftan posted:

Personally I think Israel is hosed either way. You can't be both a democratic state and a jewish state. It just doesn't work together. Pick one and stick with it. Personally I'd love a complete seperation of church and state Israel in which Palestinians are given the exact same rights as Israelis and covers the west bank and gaza. That's never going to happen though.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 13:01

ugh its Troika: May 2, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Cat Mattress posted:

That first camp is the plurality and only getting bigger with time since they are a majority in the younger generations.

It's a valid point. Israel as it is today is based on the oppression of Palestinians both as a mean and as an objective; and current forecast is that it is only going to get worse tomorrow. As for the legitimacy of a state defined entirely by racial supremacism and theocracy; it's hard to conciliate it with modern liberal ideals such as "human rights" and "democracy".

It's not. The unstated bit behind the "Israel should be destroyed" opinions generally is "and all the non-Palestinians in it should be killed to make room". You know those Al Aqsa brigade gangtags that some older posters have? Some of those arn't ironic, in any way, shape, or form.

Fortunately most of the more extreme anti-Israel posters got flushed out when LF was crushed.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 13:58

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

-Troika- posted:

It's not. The unstated bit behind the "Israel should be destroyed" opinions generally is "and all the non-Palestinians in it should be killed to make room". You know those Al Aqsa brigade gangtags that some older posters have? Some of those arn't ironic, in any way, shape, or form.

Fortunately most of the more extreme anti-Israel posters got flushed out when LF was crushed.

"It's not reasonable because of unrelated argument I made up in my head."

Why is a racially pure homeland for Jews something that should be supported, as opposed to a racially pure homeland for Germans.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 14:33

Triple Elation: Feb 24, 2012; 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + ... = -1

Cat Mattress posted:

That first camp is the plurality and only getting bigger with time since they are a majority in the younger generations.

Something about that narrative has always bothered me.

I mean, on the one hand you have the Palestinians who have been living in this conflict their whole lives. They were born into it. For them the Israelis are a hated enemy that has brought them nothing but pain, tears and funerals. But still, the majority of Palestinians are not power hungry racist douchebags with zero semblance of humanity. They do not believe in purposefully targeting civilians, and most of them just want to live their lives with their families in peace. They are only drawn to extremism out of reactionary anger, seeking justice against injustice done to them, and out of a conviction that there is no other way.

Then on the other hand you have the Israelis, who were also born into the conflict, and for them the Palestinians are also a hated enemy that has brought them nothing but pain, tears and funerals - even as the Israelis have been luckier and have belonged to the ultimately stronger party, and have suffered less pain, tears and funerals as a result. But unlike with the Palestinians, the majority of Israelis have let go of their humanity. They're racist, they believe in purposefully targeting innocent civilians, and they are long past just wanting to live their lives with their families in peace - they want the Palestinians to go through suffering for its own sake.

How can this be? What caused this divergence? It's not the genetics, obviously. Must be the environmental factors, then, which makes this a right up miracle, since the Palestinians are in a much worse predicament, and you would expect them to be more driven to extremism, not less. Is it the Palestinian educational system? Is Judaism vastly more radical than Islam? What gives?

# ? Aug 14, 2015 14:41

FlamingLiberal: Jan 18, 2009; Would you like to play a game?

That's another question I have not been able to figure out. Things have been way worse for younger Palestinians the last 15 years or so than for young Israelis, but the level of violence is flip-flopped. Meanwhile you have the massive bombing campaigns on Gaza.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 14:46

Zanzibar Ham: Mar 17, 2009; You giving me the cold shoulder? How cruel.; Grimey Drawer

I don't think it's that difficult to understand. Palestinians understand the horrors of the occupation better than the Israelis, so they're less willing to inflict those horrors on others. Meanwhile most Israelis hear about Israeli deaths through their TVs or social media, so they don't really get it.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the forced draft has something to do with it.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 14:51

Elias_Maluco: Aug 23, 2007; I need to sleep

FlamingLiberal posted:

That's another question I have not been able to figure out. Things have been way worse for younger Palestinians the last 15 years or so than for young Israelis, but the level of violence is flip-flopped. Meanwhile you have the massive bombing campaigns on Gaza.

Im not palestinian or israeli, but I have an impression I got with the few israelis Ive met and talked too.

It seemed to me like they just want to be regarded like the civilized, first world people they consider themselves to be and live their clean modern first world lives like regular first world people. But they cant, cause of that drat war that makes everyone in the world looks at then as bad people, barbarians, murderers and oppressors, which they cant be, of course, cause they are the clean, civilized people, they are the true victims, the palestinians are the real barbarians.

So they just want to get rid of this problem (I mean: the existance of palestinias and palestine lands) and get on with their first world modern lives but those palestinians insist on being there and alive.

It is like Israel is a fine gentleman trying to show of his good manners and fine clothes at a rich people party, but he's got a huge blood stain on its shirt and nobody can look at anything else.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 15:02

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

FlamingLiberal posted:

That's another question I have not been able to figure out. Things have been way worse for younger Palestinians the last 15 years or so than for young Israelis, but the level of violence is flip-flopped. Meanwhile you have the massive bombing campaigns on Gaza.

Also, Israel has penned in the Palestinians in a way that makes large scale violence impossible. They have already achieved what South Africa was trying to achieve with Bantustans.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 15:11

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

Triple Elation posted:

How can this be? What caused this divergence? It's not the genetics, obviously. Must be the environmental factors, then, which makes this a right up miracle, since the Palestinians are in a much worse predicament, and you would expect them to be more driven to extremism, not less. Is it the Palestinian educational system? Is Judaism vastly more radical than Islam? What gives?

Israeli have the upper hand, and will continue to have it for the foreseeable future, so the conflict is ultimately in their benefit. The more it goes on, they more they gain from it.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 15:24

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Any one know anything about the most recent report of an arson attack?

ALso frankly I doubt Israel is as safe in the westbank as it likes to pretend. If the PLO collapses I suspect much of it arms will end up in the hands of very vengful and anti israli palistinians who will make the westbank as much of a hell for Israel as south africa was for the afrikaners.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 15:56

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 03:13

SyHopeful: Jun 24, 2007; May an IDF soldier mistakenly gun down my own parents and face no repercussions i'd totally be cool with it cuz accidents are unavoidable in a low-intensity conflict, man

So why does the Arab Peace Initiative get so little discussion in general? I mean, it blows holes in the pro-Israel trope about being surrounded by enemies but otherwise I rarely see it get brought up.

# ? Aug 14, 2015 15:58

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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