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ActusRhesus posted:
It reminds me of that scene in Liar, Liar where Jim Carrey objects and the judge asks him why and he says "because it's detrimental to my case."
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Aug 15, 2015 03:50
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Dead Reckoning posted:Bad conduct that can't be proven isn't good, it's just utterly irrelevant to any sort of real world discussion. It is relevant because when you're talking about the system investigating itself often "not being able to prove something" indicates that there's a problem with the system. The cop who killed Eric Garner did kill Eric Garner. He wasn't even charged. Just because he wasn't found guilty doesn't mean there is no problem. A prosecutor apparently couldn't convince a jury that charges should be brought up. Does that mean, since the state couldn't prove it, nothing bad happened? After all, you just said that if they couldn't prove it, reality is irrelevant.
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Aug 15, 2015 03:51
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ActusRhesus posted:No, I'm saying we don't punish people for poo poo that isn't proven beyond allegation. Standard in a civil trial is low. Preponderance of the evidence. 50.1% If you can't make that then literally, it probably didn't happen. The problem here is that, yes, in each individual case, we need to wait for trial. However, it may be sound to point to the large number of allegation to show a pattern that is not directed at one thing. The blue wall is certainly a thing. I can tell you in my current policy position it is one of the major concerns of fairly high up people in large law enforcment organtizations. For reasons you'd understand I can't get into much greater specifics. I can also tell you I've drunk with more than enough cops who have acknowledged it as a thing. It isn't generally that formal these days, those structures were brought down in the 90s, but "no snitching" is still a thing. Here, at least, formal retaliation is not a huge thing, though I can think of a few cases I've heard of recently, though if people get caught, they will be poo poo canned for it. Things like slowing down response times are real, though most of it is hazing type poo poo or fuckong with shifts. Here you will almost never hear of a real one resolving, they all get resolved in secret settlements.
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Aug 15, 2015 03:56
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ActusRhesus posted:you are confusing two separate issues. What if you're in a department that has a written policy that differs from the verbal policy in practice. Say, supervisors allow officers who work two with only one shift off to clock out from patrol, and drive the patrol car home, then come back for their personal vehicle at the end of the next shift. Say also, that every officer takes advantage of this on average once a week. Now the whistle blower gets fired for misuse of a police vehicle. Would that, in your mind be retaliation or is it just discipline for legitimate performance issues? I'm not saying that's the fact pattern in any of the articles on the last page, but I'm curious how you think of that.
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Aug 15, 2015 03:56
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ActusRhesus posted:I'm surprised no one has yet pointed out that a news article reporting that someone is suing for allegations of whistleblower retaliation is not the same as an article saying said lawsuit was successful. While a single accusation certainly isn't proof, if you have a large number of accusations of the same nature you can be pretty certain that the thing in question is, in fact, happening. Also, not all accusations/crimes are created equal in terms of how likely they are to be true. If a woman accuses a man of rape, it is more likely that she is telling the truth than that she isn't (of course, this alone shouldn't be enough to get the accused convicted). I imagine people accusing their employers of wrongful firing is also a thing where justified/true accusations are more common than false ones (I'm open to evidence that this isn't the case, but I find it unlikely that people would frequently lie about retaliatory firing/punishment by their employers*). As an analogy to the situation in question, if you have a very large number of women claiming to have been raped, then you can be quite certain that a lot of women were raped, even if some of those women might be lying. (This is actually a kind of obvious logical thing; you would be right if someone were speaking of a single incident, but when you extrapolate out to multiple incidents it is extremely likely that many/most will be true.) *As a side note to this, I believe that it's generally better as a rule of thumb to default to siding with employees over employers, since they usually have far less power in the relationship. It's not like the employer would be going to prison if found guilty, so there's no need for some extremely high burden of proof. The worst case scenario would almost always hurt the employee (who is losing his job) than the employer (who might be forced to retain a bad employee or provide some financial compensation).
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Aug 15, 2015 07:51
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Berk Berkly posted:No? Bad cops harm the profession's mission as a whole (i.e. public trust of law enforcement is an important thing, bad cops harm that trust, causing an adversarial relationship where for instance nobody trusts even a traffic cop to conduct a regular traffic stop without starting some poo poo especially when the driver is non-white/straight/male) and create a situation where their unduly-gained power influences prosecutorial conduct the courts and allows influence vice-versa. These abuses of power encourage some in the thread to push for total disarmament of police, others just for de-militarization of the police, and still others for more comprehensive reforms consisting of a mixture of actions. Getting rid of cops entirely is a big ol' strawman or the cynical words of a troll. (In short,  , in case you think I'm arguing with you.)
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Aug 15, 2015 08:38
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Ytlaya posted:Also, not all accusations/crimes are created equal in terms of how likely they are to be true. If a woman accuses a man of rape, it is more likely that she is telling the truth than that she isn't (of course, this alone shouldn't be enough to get the accused convicted). I imagine people accusing their employers of wrongful firing is also a thing where justified/true accusations are more common than false ones (I'm open to evidence that this isn't the case, but I find it unlikely that people would frequently lie about retaliatory firing/punishment by their employers*). As an analogy to the situation in question, if you have a very large number of women claiming to have been raped, then you can be quite certain that a lot of women were raped, even if some of those women might be lying. Actually, while I don't buy the "false accusation epidemic" touted by the men's rights lobby, false rape allegations are not uncommon at all, especially in the military and college environments where you have trainings that literally teach "one drink of alcohol = no consent" and people who enter into ill-advised consensual sexual encounters now incorrectly believe it was "rape" because they had consumed 2 zimas. This does't mean they were lying. they probably do feel victimized. And maybe on a moral level they were, but it's not rape. Ergo false report. As for retaliation claims....drat near every poo poo bag sailor I had to separate would, once he realized he was going to get a sack of hammers dropped on him would file some bullshit IG report about *something* and then complain he was being retaliated against. The "OMG HE MADE A SPEEDING TICKET GO AWAY!" sound a lot more like that scenario than a genuine "I am concerned abut this division" scenario. I am not saying retaliation doesn't happen. I'm sure it does just as it happens in EVERY work environment. All I am saying is an allegation does not = proof of guilt.
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Aug 15, 2015 12:46
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What are some numbers that we can associate with your perception of 'not uncommon' and what are the rates of false accusations in those institutions?
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Aug 15, 2015 14:13
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This is a little late, but the article about: "police officer doesn't kill guy because he doesn't want to be seen as a murder" like, the police have the suspect, right? the could easily have phrased it as "cop attacked, gets roughed up, subdues attacker" "we take assaulting a officer very serious" like, everyone would of agreed that the police handled this excellent, but instead, we get the officer in question saying he would of shoot him if he could of gotten away with it.
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Aug 15, 2015 14:42
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captainblastum posted:What are some numbers that we can associate with your perception of 'not uncommon' and what are the rates of false accusations in those institutions? Studies vary and numbers are higher in areas with concentrated populations of younger people (e.g. college and military) , but for general population, most reputable studies converge around the 2-10% range. http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf http://www.icdv.idaho.gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/12/false-reports-outpace-sex-assaults-in-the-military/?page=all http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/12/college_rape_campus_sexual_assault_is_a_serious_problem_but_the_efforts.html As both a defense counsel and a prosecutor in the military, I definitely saw false allegations. (e.g. a sailor who was about to be sent to non-judicial punishment for underage drinking claimed she was sexually assaulted by a white guy, a black guy, an asian guy, and a hispanic guy. United Colors of Beneton was unavailable for comment) I think more reports were true than false, even the ones that could not be proven. And even among the "false reports" I don't think they were all lying...some were just genuinely mistaken on the definition of sexual assault. But pretending false reports never happen is just as disingenuous as claiming that a majority of reports are false. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 14:59 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 14:53
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Do you think bill cosby is a rapist? One or two allegations, alright maybe not. Your obtuse attitude only accepting completed trials and outright ignoring the common result of confidential settlements is awfully disingenuous. Your mra example of one woman making a false rape claim is also purposely avoiding the issue. If those gang of four men had multiple accusations that woman's individual story would become more and more believable. No one condemns the system over any one incident DARPA fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 15:01
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DARPA posted:Do you think bill cosby is a rapist? settling isn't an acknowledgment of guilt. Sometimes it's just cheaper than the lawsuit. It may be because of guilt...or it may not. As to what I think about a person's guilt or innocence: irrelevant. If the complaint is people are not punished, then no, I don't have a problem with people not getting punished for unproven allegations. There are plenty of people I think are guilty. And I can't prove it. And the charge either gets nolled or goes to trial and ends in an acquittal.
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Aug 15, 2015 15:08
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Going with the statement that "false rape allegations are not uncommon at all, especially in the military and college environments" - a high end of 10% in a college environment seems uncommon to me. 2% is definitely uncommon in my opinion.
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Aug 15, 2015 16:22
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captainblastum posted:Going with the statement that "false rape allegations are not uncommon at all, especially in the military and college environments" - a high end of 10% in a college environment seems uncommon to me. 2% is definitely uncommon in my opinion. If 2% or 10% is uncommon to you, which voids the statement "false rape allegations are not uncommon," then does the fact that less than 10% of all police interactions end in police brutality mean that police brutality is uncommon?
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Aug 15, 2015 16:30
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ActusRhesus posted:As both a defense counsel and a prosecutor in the military, I definitely saw false allegations. (e.g. a sailor who was about to be sent to non-judicial punishment for underage drinking claimed she was sexually assaulted by a white guy, a black guy, an asian guy, and a hispanic guy. What about this explains why the claim was false, or are you just heaping a little dog whistle racism in with your apparently self-hating misogyny?
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Aug 15, 2015 16:35
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DrNutt posted:What about this explains why the claim was false, or are you just heaping a little dog whistle racism in with your apparently self-hating misogyny? So "I saw [this race] do this" now leads to "YOU'RE A RACISTTTTT"
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Aug 15, 2015 16:37
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DrNutt posted:What about this explains why the claim was false, or are you just heaping a little dog whistle racism in with your apparently self-hating misogyny? can you please explain to me how someone else claiming she was raped by a Beneton Ad makes me a racist? Or how acknowledging the fact that there are documented studies that show 2-10% depending on jurisdiction of sexual assault reports are false makes me a "self-hating misogynist"? I'm frankly baffled.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:13
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Cole posted:So "I saw [this race] do this" now leads to "YOU'RE A RACISTTTTT" Dude...I didn't even see it...it was someone else's report. So now "someone falsely accused a racially mixed quartet of raping her" = YOU'RE A RACIST!
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Aug 15, 2015 17:14
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DrNutt posted:a little dog whistle racism ActusRhesus posted:YOU'RE A RACIST! Cole posted:"YOU'RE A RACISTTTTT" You two seem awful defensive about racism, for some reason. DrNutt asked a question but I guess because they used the word 'racism' that's enough to not answer and go into hysterical strawman capslock mode.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:22
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ActusRhesus posted:can you please explain to me how someone else claiming she was raped by a Beneton Ad makes me a racist? Why does the fact that the men were of different races make her a liar? Was she clearly just a gutter slut who was taking it from everybody? And if it had nothing to do with the facts of the case, why mention it? Studies don't make you a self-hating misogynist, but your dismissive attitude toward rape training on college campuses and in the military does. Isn't it likely that, rather than false rape accusations being more common in those environments, rape in general is more common due to environmental conditions so you also see more false accusations? You get so pedantic about language and details but then you say poo poo like " they teach women that a couple zimas means they can't consent!" like some ridiculous MRA caricature.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:22
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ActusRhesus posted:Dude...I didn't even see it...it was someone else's report. I think the general discussion of "Let's give wacky examples of false rape accusations" does nothing to further anyone's arguments here. The racial aspect in this example was not super blatant, but it's still tacitly having fun with the trope of the "woman claims she was raped, and will say it was a black guy [or other minority] because that's what society expects" by taking it to the extreme. Fake edit: Jesus, especially with your comment about "United Colors of Beneton". That's poor taste to make in an anecdote about false rape accusations.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:23
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lfield posted:You two seem awful defensive about racism, for some reason. His question included calling AR a racist and a misogynist. What kind of response does someone expect from that type of question? But hey, keep calling us racist if it makes you feel better, even though it kind of just makes you look a bit foolish.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:23
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DrNutt posted:Why does the fact that the men were of different races make her a liar? When did AR say that is specifically what made her a liar? I really want to know.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:24
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DrNutt posted:rape training nobody needs to be trained in how to rape. that's a horrible loving thing to say. (this is an example of taking things out of context like you do. stop it.) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 15, 2015 17:25
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Cole posted:When did AR say that is specifically what made her a liar? I really want to know. Well it was the only detail of the case that she deemed fit to provide us with. And what have I taken out of context exactly?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:33
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DrNutt posted:Well it was the only detail of the case that she deemed fit to provide us with. And what have I taken out of context exactly? So specifically, when was their race the only thing that made her a liar? Either [this portion of what AR said] or [this was never said]. You didn't answer this question for me, so I won't answer your context question for you. Are you saying it is racist to describe the suspects involved if they aren't white?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:34
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Cole posted:So specifically, when was their race the only thing that made her a liar? If there was anything else, AR didn't say it. We're not mind readers here.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:36
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lfield posted:If there was anything else, AR didn't say it. We're not mind readers here. That doesn't answer the question. What specifically was racist about what AR said? Describing the suspects?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:38
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Cole posted:So specifically, when was their race the only thing that made her a liar? Since you have trouble reading, I'll say it again: it was the only detail of the case she deemed fit to share with us. So I understood that, according to AR, something about the racial makeup of the alleged attackers made that situation more likely to be a lie. I mean, either that or AR was making a no doubt hilarious rape joke for us.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:38
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Cole posted:If 2% or 10% is uncommon to you, which voids the statement "false rape allegations are not uncommon," then does the fact that less than 10% of all police interactions end in police brutality mean that police brutality is uncommon? Yes, police brutality is uncommon. Racial bias in the judicial system is not uncommon, and racial bias leading to interactions that would not have otherwise occurred are not uncommon. Retaliation against police officers attempting to police other officers does not appear to be uncommon - even you acknowledged a 20% rate. Do you think that 20% is still uncommon? I don't. I think that you're also reading into my question a bit - I'm not trying to ask a loaded or gotcha question, I'm trying to get a clear understanding of ActusRhesus's position.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:39
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DrNutt posted:Since you have trouble reading, I'll say it again: it was the only detail of the case she deemed fit to share with us. So I understood that, according to AR, something about the racial makeup of the alleged attackers made that situation more likely to be a lie. I mean, either that or AR was making a no doubt hilarious rape joke for us. So the literal facts of a case make it racism? If I said "this white guy was beat up by five black guys" is that racist, or is that stating facts if, in fact, a white guy was beat up by five black guys?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:40
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captainblastum posted:Yes, police brutality is uncommon. Racial bias in the judicial system is not uncommon, and racial bias leading to interactions that would not have otherwise occurred are not uncommon. Retaliation against police officers attempting to police other officers does not appear to be uncommon - even you acknowledged a 20% rate. Do you think that 20% is still uncommon? I don't. I think that you're also reading into my question a bit - I'm not trying to ask a loaded or gotcha question, I'm trying to get a clear understanding of ActusRhesus's position. I acknowledged a 20% rate when that is all someone was looking for. When you are specifically looking for police brutality coverups and you only get 20%, that's actually horribly low considering you literally never even factored in anything other than police brutality coverups. The percentage is a lot lower than 20%. 20% hinged on very specific factors and was not all inclusive to all police officers. For example, if I posted several links of cops doing good things, that would lower that 20% significantly.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:43
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Cole posted:So the literal facts of a case make it racism? Bringing up race when it's unwarranted by the discussion is a common tactic of racists, yes.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:44
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DrNutt posted:Bringing up race when it's unwarranted by the discussion is a common tactic of racists, yes. This entire thread is about the judicial system and racism though?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:46
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Cole posted:This entire thread is about the judicial system and racism though? That would be a case where it is warranted, you goof. It is not necessary to describe the race of accused rapists unless you're trying to assign some meaning to their race. AR's meaning was that because the woman claims her attackers were of different races, she was lying. Maybe we just need more facts about the case, or maybe AR is being racist. Who knows ~
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Aug 15, 2015 17:49
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lfield posted:That would be a case where it is warranted, you goof. Not necessary to who? To you? Why are you the law of the land on what is necessary information?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:51
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Cole posted:This entire thread is about the judicial system and racism though? In what way did the race of the accused rapists add to the discussion? Context matters. You apparently are confused about what context is, however, since you accused me of taking things out of context, and I have not.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:51
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DrNutt posted:In what way did the race of the accused rapists add to the discussion? Context matters. You apparently are confused about what context is, however, since you accused me of taking things out of context, and I have not. Actually I'll simplify my question: How did knowing that they were men add to it?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:53
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DrNutt posted:Why does the fact that the men were of different races make her a liar? Was she clearly just a gutter slut who was taking it from everybody? And if it had nothing to do with the facts of the case, why mention it? Also, nearly everyone who has had contact with the military's flailing attempt at sexual assault training is dismissive of it. It's wildly unrealistic compared to how sexually active adults behave. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 17:54
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Cole posted:Not necessary to who? To you? Why are you the law of the land on what is necessary information? You stopped reading before you got to the end of that sentence, I see. Give it another go. I believe in you, Cole.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:58
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