I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

A lot of Israeli Jews are realizing the inherent problems in Israeli doctrines and starting to go 'wait no I'm not sure I'm into being in some crazy army of David part two or whatever' when they have roots and history elsewhere as well. Israel's strategy of 'no just shove every Jew we can in the borders' had appeal for a few generations after, ya know, the whole genocide thing but now those people's grandchildren are going 'wait, so we were Romanian or Polish or Hungarian before we came here, what happened to that part of us?' It was understandable for grandpa and grandma to have no interest in going back because, yea gently caress that, but now there's a gulf between generational experiences. The holocaust and other problems are historical tragedies, memories we're taught and, of course every Jew views that poo poo as a horrific event that must never be allowed to happen again, but at the same time we didn't suffer, our blood wasn't shed, we have the connection without the fresh wounds and in a culture like ours those family bonds and connections are supposed to be important.

I don't think there will be a mass exodus of Jewish youth (eh? Eeeeh?) from Israel, but I do think sooner rather than later the government is going to HAVE to give these people reason to stay other than 'BOOGABOOGA THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA GIT YA'. Israel, to many, is still a spiritual identity more than a literal set of borders in the sand, so when you see your politicians supporting movements that you frankly feel are horrific, it becomes easier to say 'ok, I'm out. Have fun with this, I'll wait for some sign from God or something that this land really is blessed for us and come back then.'

# ? Aug 18, 2015 04:29

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 05:00

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

The Insect Court posted:

What would you say when that person's defenders insist he never said he is a racist, that's he's merely talking about thugs and criminals who just so happen to be black, that he's got a black friend, that the real racists are the blacks who conflate the "thugs" with the good blacks and how those race hucksters bear much of the blame for racist violence and they're just trying to persecute and silence well-intentioned anti-thug activists like themselves? Would that sway you?

I will say that those sort of arguments don't sway me when they come from . I would say that they're racists because they legitimize the rhetoric of racism and adopt classical racist canards. Qualifiers and provisos like "it's about culture, not race!" or "I don't have anything against the good ones" are flimsy excuses.

And besides, if you want a meaningful thought experiment here, the analogy isn't about race it's about the reaction if a performer of Palestinian ancestry was singled out and told to issue a public statement recognizing the right of Israel to exist as a Zionist state and to engage in self-defense. It's pretty clear what the result would be. The same people shrugging at a Jewish artist being attacked as a "lover of Israel" and a "Zionist" would be tearing their hair out.

The first two paragraphs here seem like you're agreeing with my point but then you veer off in the third paragraph and what you're saying just falls apart

The whole thing we're talking about is whether BDS were justified. You can't use the unevidenced assumption that he was singled out for his race, which you use in your analogy, to prove the point that he was singled out for his race. It's a circular arguement and doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny or logic.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 08:43

Zulily Zoetrope: Jun 1, 2011; Muldoon

The Insect Court posted:

Likewise, I would find 'ironic racism' like this just as objectionable if it were gross anti-Arab racism rather than antisemitism. I believe it's important to be intellectually consistent in matters like this.

How did you identify that remark as racist? Care to elaborate? Specifically, how is it different from the statement that "Hey, I'm no expert. I'm not sure if the Palestinians should have a country," in such a way that not only is the latter not racist, but the people objecting to it are?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 11:33

Kim Jong Il: Aug 16, 2003

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

lol poo poo's hosed

But as the article notes French Jews are arriving in droves. Left-wing malaise in Israel is nothing new, but the real question is how the overall picture looks. Certainly the growth of Haredim and Religious Zionists are not a heartening trend.

People want EU citizenship, but their ancestral homelands like Hungary or Belarus are anti-Semitic shitholes, and the climate in Western Europe is rapidly degrading.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 13:04

Adar: Jul 27, 2001

Kim Jong Il posted:

But as the article notes French Jews are arriving in droves. Left-wing malaise in Israel is nothing new, but the real question is how the overall picture looks. Certainly the growth of Haredim and Religious Zionists are not a heartening trend.

People want EU citizenship, but their ancestral homelands like Hungary or Belarus are anti-Semitic shitholes, and the climate in Western Europe is rapidly degrading.

Personally I'm splitting the difference and going for Crown Dependency-topia :v:

A good chunk of the EU is definitely hosed but oh well wasn't really planning on learning a fourth language anyway.

Also, when a Jew with bad opinions who is unconnected to I/P in any other way gets asked for a loyalty oath, the takeaway should really not be "oh well, he has bad opinions".

# ? Aug 18, 2015 13:14

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

Adar posted:

Also, when a Jew with bad opinions who is unconnected to I/P in any other way gets asked for a loyalty oath, the takeaway should really not be "oh well, he has bad opinions".

He wasn't asked to take a loyalty oath and asking someone who will be performing at a festival linked with peace and human rights to confirm that they don't have anti-peace and anti-human rights views when their previous statements and actions indicate they do is common sense.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 13:24

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Tatum Girlparts posted:

A lot of Israeli Jews are realizing the inherent problems in Israeli doctrines and starting to go 'wait no I'm not sure I'm into being in some crazy army of David part two or whatever' when they have roots and history elsewhere as well. Israel's strategy of 'no just shove every Jew we can in the borders' had appeal for a few generations after, ya know, the whole genocide thing but now those people's grandchildren are going 'wait, so we were Romanian or Polish or Hungarian before we came here, what happened to that part of us?' It was understandable for grandpa and grandma to have no interest in going back because, yea gently caress that, but now there's a gulf between generational experiences. The holocaust and other problems are historical tragedies, memories we're taught and, of course every Jew views that poo poo as a horrific event that must never be allowed to happen again, but at the same time we didn't suffer, our blood wasn't shed, we have the connection without the fresh wounds and in a culture like ours those family bonds and connections are supposed to be important.

I don't think there will be a mass exodus of Jewish youth (eh? Eeeeh?) from Israel, but I do think sooner rather than later the government is going to HAVE to give these people reason to stay other than 'BOOGABOOGA THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA GIT YA'. Israel, to many, is still a spiritual identity more than a literal set of borders in the sand, so when you see your politicians supporting movements that you frankly feel are horrific, it becomes easier to say 'ok, I'm out. Have fun with this, I'll wait for some sign from God or something that this land really is blessed for us and come back then.'

Rather than that, I'd say the bigger problems are ones of economic opportunity. Certainly, the climate of fear that current Israeli politics have fanned is a factor, but a number of the actual people interviewed - especially the younger ones - said they were leaving because they saw greater economic opportunity in Western Europe. Which makes sense. The Israeli economy isn't doing so hot, with immigrants being hit particularly badly. Ex-Soviet Jews have still largely failed to integrate economically, even two decades after they immigrated, and new immigrants from find it extremely hard to break into the job market, even if they're skilled workers from Western Europe. People love to talk about immigration to Israel...but you rarely hear about the troubles they face when they arrive at Israel, where they're not considered real Jews, where an overall poor economy is compounded by discrimination against non-Israeli-born Jews, and where they're not fluent in the local language and no one understands their first language. Israel does plenty to brag about how many Jews migrate there from elsewhere, but by all accounts it does an extraordinarily poor job of integrating these newcomers once they enter the country.

http://m.jpost.com/Diaspora/Four-ou...zFBNjRCNjhGQTA=

quote:

Around 40 percent of recent immigrants to Israel consider returning to their countries of origin, according to a study carried out by Gvahim, a nongovernmental organization that works for the integration of immigrant academics. The NGO surveyed 300 new arrivals, 59% of from the United States and France.

Six out of 10 new immigrants, or olim, polled responded that the primary barrier to employment in Israel is a lack of knowledge regarding the Israeli job market, with an additional 28% citing language difficulties.

An overwhelming majority of 88% said having good personal connections is the primary factor involved in obtaining a job in the country while only 24% said that this is the case abroad.

A quarter of those polled stated that the most important move in integrating into the local job market is involvement in government sponsored training programs. Some 22% said there needs to be “a change of attitude by employers regarding hiring olim,” while one in five called for a provision of incentives for hiring immigrants.

“The survey’s findings indicate that the olim population faces specific difficulties in their integration into the Israeli job market,” said Gvahim CEO Gali Shahar. “In view of the recent waves of anti-Semitism in Europe, the task of finding a livelihood for the thousands of olim expected to arrive in Israel becomes a national challenge, which requires the participation of all the bodies involved, government ministries, the business sector and employers from other sectors.”

The government is working on guidelines for easing the transition for accredited professionals.

Last week the cabinet approved a NIS 180 million aliya plan for France, Belgium and Ukraine and within the next month, the Economy Ministry is expected to complete an inquiry into recognizing the French BTS higher technicians’ degree.

Speaking with The Jerusalem Post last week, Dr. Dov Maimon, a French expert who authored the proposal of the Jewish People Policy Institute in Jerusalem, said that the government plan lacked such elements as tax incentives for companies that relocate as well as provisions for business incubators and temporary work permits for physicians and other professionals.

In a statement on Sunday, JPPI president Avinoam Bar-Yosef called the initiative a “positive step in the right direction,” but said that it “takes into account less than one-third of those eligible to make aliya from Western Europe,” including 120,000 French and Belgian Jews who he described as “strong candidates for aliya.”

“The cabinet decision does not take into account JPPI’s recommendation to establish a special administrative unit within the Prime Minister’s Office to oversee and coordinate efforts among the various government agencies involved such a process.

Furthermore, the plan does not mention JPPI’s recommendation to encourage and assist in transferring Jewish-French owned business and investments to Israel, [and] to create appropriate places of employment for the French-speaking new immigrants,” he said.

In response to the Gvahim poll, Avi Zana, who heads the French immigration promotion organization Ami Israel, told the Post that just because a high percentage of immigrants think about emigration is not an indicator of a high rate of return.

Citing statistics that 75% of French Jews have thought about emigrating while the actual number that leaves is much lower, Zana said that 40% of new arrivals considering leaving “doesn’t mean they are going to come back.”

Economic integration is easier for French Jews than Americans, because many find work telecommuting or even flying back-and-forth between the two countries, he added.

“As increasing numbers of Jews leave Europe, we have a unique opportunity to draw unprecedented aliya from Western countries to Israel. In order to do so, however, we must demonstrate that we are serious about helping new immigrants build their lives here,” Jewish Agency spokesman Avi Mayer commented. “We welcome the government’s most recent steps to ease new immigrants’ integration into the Israeli workforce.

At the same time, we call for the development of a comprehensive national aliya strategy in order to ensure that Israel remains the No. 1 choice for Jewish emigrants from Europe and around the world.”

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.625191

quote:

Israel has invested heavily in the successful absorption of new immigrants, but new numbers of those leaving cast a pall on the success of this endeavor. According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, half of the Israelis who left the country in 2012 for more than a year were immigrants who were not born here. A quarter of those leaving were designated as “others,” a term reserved for immigrants deemed Jewish for obtaining citizenship but not according to Jewish law (halakha).

Yogev Karasenty, an adviser at the Jewish Agency, presented these figures recently at the Knesset against the backdrop of debate on the conversion reform. He believes that the numbers indicate a problem in the process of absorbing these people. “The number of immigrants who came and left is uncomfortably high,” he says. “We’d like to see a much better blending of these immigrants into Israeli society, and we’re convinced that more accessible conversion will change things around.” That’s the new buzz word: “accessible conversion.”

“Conversion is a process of acceptance into Israeli society,” says Karasenty. “It’s tantamount to serving in the army, and the two have been linked together not coincidentally. These two frameworks give an imprimatur of ‘Israeliness,’ without which a person’s sense of belonging is affected.”

In response to the claim that the numbers don’t indicate that conversion problems are at fault, Karasenty says anyone thinking otherwise should offer an alternative explanation for the daunting numbers. “Conversion is part of the story, not all of it, but it’s prominent. When you convert, you become part of the larger group and acquire a sense of belonging. When you’re an outsider it’s easier to leave. The fact that even the CBS labels them as ‘others’ highlights their marginalization.”

Seeking to hear some stories behind the statistics, Haaretz talked to immigrants from the former Soviet Union who have decided to leave Israel, including some of those defined as “others.” Some faced difficulties upon arrival while others felt at home immediately. They all see themselves as Israelis and regard Israel as their home. Those who were considered not Jewish according to halakha said that this was a major component in their sense of not belonging.

“I came here at the age of nine from Moscow, but I’m defined as ‘other,’ like a pig,” says 34-year-old Neta Kunin bitterly. A year ago she followed her partner to Barcelona. “It’s true that non-Jewish Russians leave because they are treated like second-class citizens. You don’t feel it on a daily basis but when you need to be married or buried you can’t do a thing. I didn’t join the army for that reason – why should I serve and then if anything happens you’ll bury me outside the cemetery?”

Kunin says the Jewish issue comes up before marriage does. She told men whom she met that she wasn’t Jewish according to Jewish law. “You meet the most secular man, and as he bites into his lobster he declares that his children have to be Jewish,” she relates cynically. She’s had partners who didn’t tell their parents that she wasn’t Jewish. Her parents and grandparents are pressuring her to convert, but she’s had a traumatic experience with the ordeal. She’s tried three times already. “The first time was with a female rabbinic instructor who tortured us any way she could.“ Kunin says the process involves learning how to tell a kosher egg from a non-kosher one, how to be a woman, to cook, to make dishes kosher, with a little bit of Judaism thrown in.

“I tried again two or three years ago, since I heard a reform had made things easier. It was easier, with men and women together in class, but the lecturer sounded dismissive of our way of life.” What bothered her was that native Israelis don’t have to go through all that to be considered Jewish. “Why should I go through hell, and lie, only to be equal to them? In all these cases women lie to the rabbinical courts. Nobody I know keeps the rules afterwards. The process only produces liars who mock the whole procedure.” She held out longer on her third attempt, but gave up again.

“I believe that someone who’s lived here for 20 years, speaking Hebrew and working for a living, should be able to take a short test in Jewish history and become Jewish – why all this torture and lying?”

After a year in Barcelona, no one asks her if she eats kosher or is Christian. She has no intention of returning. “In Israel there is a daily struggle for survival of people who fight each other, looking for ways to vent their frustration.”

Rabbi Shaul Farber from the Itim NGO, which accompanies immigrants during their conversion process, knows a couple who left after going through it. After a lengthy process they refused to marry when getting their conversion papers, so their conversion fell through. “I don’t think everyone leaves for these reasons, but it is a factor,” he says.

“The problem is not in halakha, but in the people who are running things. One has to find solutions for people who see themselves as Jewish, as belonging to Jewish communities. Some would say, Let them leave, but I want to tell them that Israel belongs to them too.”

Kunin believes it’s easier for immigrants to leave since they’ve immigrated once already, unlike Israelis who are rooted here. “I was born in a country that no longer exists, so my home is Israel.”

Immigrants twice-over

Lena Dagtiar, also 34, who came to Israel at age 12, agrees. “It was easier for me to leave since I wasn’t born there. Like Kunin, she is not considered Jewish by the Rabbinate. She studied biology in Israel and jumped at an offer from Berlin. The Jewish question is part of the public discourse in Israel, which made her feel she didn’t belong. “They constantly discuss it, making you feel not a part of things.”

“I told people I wasn’t Jewish, to put things out in the open, and I even considered converting, but then decided that it wasn’t important.” She was mostly angry that her sister couldn’t get married in Israel. “When I came to Berlin I thought I’d return, but that won’t happen soon. What clinched it was the mentality in Israel – everyone is into your personal affairs with an opinion about your lifestyle. In Berlin you get the feeling that you can be whatever you want to and it’s okay. That’s very special.” The economic situation also played a role, since in Berlin she can make ends meet, unlike in Israel. Nevertheless, she still maintains she feels most at home in Israel.

A., who is Jewish, nevertheless felt like an outsider, like a stigmatized “Russian.” “My children were called names and didn’t want to speak Russian, which annoyed me since we were previously subjected to anti-Semitism in Russia. Here they feel proud of their origins.”

Others interviewed said they left for better business opportunities, noting that they felt at home in Israel and still do. Only in their new countries did they understand what many immigrants in Israel felt, as outsiders.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 15:39

ToxicAcne: May 25, 2014

Are most of these "others" Reform Jews?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 17:33

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

ToxicAcne posted:

Are most of these "others" Reform Jews?

Nope, they're mostly those who qualify for Law of Return due to having a Jewish grandparent, but who are otherwise not considered Jewish by the Orthodox. So they're secular or part-Christian. The Rabbinate does not appreciate them being grandfathered in.

There are ethnic overtones to this: in 2013 Shas, representing Mizrahi traditional and religious Orthodox Jews, had a TV ad (withdrawn after complaints) with a couple, a Mizrahi groom and a Russian bride, getting married, only to find that the bride is not Jewish - a short fax later, she is "converted", to th. It was an attack on attempts By Lieberman's Israel Beitenu to make conversion less stringent, and used the stereotype of relatively recent Russian immigrants as not being real Jews.

Here, I found it: use CC to see the English subtitles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8D2O71jUZU

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:00

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

I remember reading the part a few months ago about the guy eating lobster and demanding that his children be born jewish and scoffing deeply.

I doubt the two are interconnected but I can't help but think one of the reactions to the olim integration problem is the schism that has formed between the rabbinical court and the subsequent new court that has been getting talked about a lot on ha'aretz.

I hate matisyahu's music so If I were ever to go to a fest he was slated to perform at and he got pulled from the bill I would incredibly not care.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:00

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

team overhead smash posted:

He wasn't asked to take a loyalty oath and asking someone who will be performing at a festival linked with peace and human rights to confirm that they don't have anti-peace and anti-human rights views when their previous statements and actions indicate they do is common sense.

He was asked a question he could never answer satisfactory to the organizers solely because Matisyahu is a Jewish raeggae performer.

That's antisemitism, an act which you are attempting to justify. Justifying antisemitism is antisemitic.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:13

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

Nothing you post makes any sense and it's spelled reggae you loving idiot.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:17

sexpig by night: Sep 8, 2011; by Azathoth

Main Paineframe posted:

Rather than that, I'd say the bigger problems are ones of economic opportunity. Certainly, the climate of fear that current Israeli politics have fanned is a factor, but a number of the actual people interviewed - especially the younger ones - said they were leaving because they saw greater economic opportunity in Western Europe. Which makes sense. The Israeli economy isn't doing so hot, with immigrants being hit particularly badly. Ex-Soviet Jews have still largely failed to integrate economically, even two decades after they immigrated, and new immigrants from find it extremely hard to break into the job market, even if they're skilled workers from Western Europe. People love to talk about immigration to Israel...but you rarely hear about the troubles they face when they arrive at Israel, where they're not considered real Jews, where an overall poor economy is compounded by discrimination against non-Israeli-born Jews, and where they're not fluent in the local language and no one understands their first language. Israel does plenty to brag about how many Jews migrate there from elsewhere, but by all accounts it does an extraordinarily poor job of integrating these newcomers once they enter the country.

http://m.jpost.com/Diaspora/Four-ou...zFBNjRCNjhGQTA=

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/.premium-1.625191

Oh for sure I wasn't trying to say that was the only reason, or even the main reason, just a factor. I agree the biggest thing making people 'nah I'm out' is economic situation, I've just spoken with a lot of older Israelis with a 'yea it sucks but we stick it out because this is Israel' attitude, while their children often don't share it and instead go 'nah if I can't make a living here I'm gonna bail back home'. A lot of my family and friends of the family who are there are from Soviet nations and yea that's pretty much 100% accurate and an absolute disgrace. I'm totally with the woman saying 'if we're here and working and speak the language let us take some dumb test and be done with it then', making a Jew jump through hoops to prove what a good and proper Jew they are (even though they're a-ok with us dirty dirty reform types) is just demeaning and cruel.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:28

team overhead smash: Sep 2, 2006; Team-Forest-Tree-Dog:
Smashing your way into our hearts one skylight at a time

My Imaginary GF posted:

He was asked a question he could never answer satisfactory to the organizers solely because Matisyahu is a Jewish raeggae performer.

That's antisemitism, an act which you are attempting to justify. Justifying antisemitism is antisemitic.

If he was literally incapable of stating that Palestinians are deserving of human rights and human rights abuses committed against them are wrong then he seems to be exactly the kind of racist that could be banned from humanitarian events.

Also if it was solely because he was a Jewish reggae performer as you claim and not to do with his pro-zionist comments, how come Israeli Jewish reggae performers who haven't made anti-Palestinian comments performed at the festival without incident a few years ago?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:30

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

He was asked a question he could never answer satisfactory to the organizers solely because Matisyahu is a Jewish raeggae performer.

That's antisemitism, an act which you are attempting to justify. Justifying antisemitism is antisemitic.

No, he couldn't answer satisfactory because he hates Palestinians. So he wasn't able to perform.

If he had simply acknowledged the inherent human rights of Palestinians there wouldn't have been any problems. Instead, he chose hatred of his fellow man and was not allowed to play.

The system works.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:32

Ultramega: Jul 9, 2004

I doubt he ~hates~ palestinians, dude. That's, to be fair, putting words in his mouth. All he's said with certainty is that palestine was never a country, the mavi marmara crew brought molotovs and weapons with them and that palestinians don't deserve self-determination.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 18:59

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

team overhead smash posted:

If he was literally incapable of stating that Palestinians are deserving of human rights and human rights abuses committed against them are wrong then he seems to be exactly the kind of racist that could be banned from humanitarian events.

Also if it was solely because he was a Jewish reggae performer as you claim and not to do with his pro-zionist comments, how come Israeli Jewish reggae performers who haven't made anti-Palestinian comments performed at the festival without incident a few years ago?

Busy atm so I cant check the link, but if the latter is true and israeli jewish artists have been welcome before, then this seems like an open-and-shut case that he was booted due to comments about palestine, than antisemitism.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:07

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

uninterrupted posted:

No, he couldn't answer satisfactory because he hates Palestinians. So he wasn't able to perform.

If he had simply acknowledged the inherent human rights of Palestinians there wouldn't have been any problems. Instead, he chose hatred of his fellow man and was not allowed to play.

The system works.

How I, and most others outside leftist, antisemitic circlejerks read your post:

"He was asked a question solely because he's Jewish and attends regular Jewish services while being active within the Jewish community, a question which his faith precludes him from being able to answer, therefore he deserves to be denied gainful employment because of his Jewish faith."

Why should a non-Israeli Jew have to acknowledge arab issues in order to have gainful employment in the developed world? They shouldn't, and to say otherwise is to be antisemitic and prove the eternal need for Israel as a Jewish state.

Ultramega posted:

I doubt he ~hates~ palestinians, dude. That's, to be fair, putting words in his mouth. All he's said with certainty is that palestine was never a country, the mavi marmara crew brought molotovs and weapons with them and that palestinians don't deserve self-determination.

All valid and reasonable stances within polite society. A nation which would elect a state department listed terrorist organization to governanfe is not a nation which deserves to be regarded with the same rights as state-level institutions are afforded.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:08

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

Ultramega posted:

I doubt he ~hates~ palestinians, dude. That's, to be fair, putting words in his mouth. All he's said with certainty is that palestine was never a country, the mavi marmara crew brought molotovs and weapons with them and that palestinians don't deserve self-determination.

Of course he does. Anyone saying "jews don't deserve a country, they should go back to Europe" would be called an antisemite, I don't see any significant difference between that and Matisyahu's statements.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:09

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

uninterrupted posted:

Of course he does. Anyone saying "jews don't deserve a country, they should go back to Europe" would be called an antisemite, I don't see any significant difference between that and Matisyahu's statements.

Jewish identity wasn't created out of opposition to the rights of Jews to own and retain the property which they had legitimately and validly acquired through their self-determination and hard endeavours. Palestinian identity did not exist at the founding of the Jewish state; Jordanian and Egyptian identity, in addition to an undercurrent of antisemitic pan-arabism, did.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:12

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

Why should a non-Israeli Jew have to acknowledge arab issues in order to have gainful employment in the developed world?

Because he said he hates Palestinians.

If you say you hate black people, I'm not hiring you. It's called economic freedom.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:14

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

Jewish identity wasn't created out of opposition to the rights of Jews to own and retain the property which they had legitimately and validly acquired through their self-determination and hard endeavours. Palestinian identity did not exist at the founding of the Jewish state; Jordanian and Egyptian identity, in addition to an undercurrent of antisemitic pan-arabism, did.

Hahaha, you're flailing pretty hard.

Matisyahu got dumped from a concert because he's a piece of poo poo. In the coming years, anyone who support the illegal Israeli occupation will end up broke on the streets, and the fact that this has you so mad is a sign of how powerful BDS is. Rototom Sunsplash may have literally saved lives.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:19

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

uninterrupted posted:

Hahaha, you're flailing pretty hard.

Matisyahu got dumped from a concert because he's a piece of poo poo. In the coming years, anyone who support the illegal Israeli occupation will end up broke on the streets, and the fact that this has you so mad is a sign of how powerful BDS is. Rototom Sunsplash may have literally saved lives.

He got dumped because he's Jewish and actively practices his faith within the Jewish community. All this goes to show is that BDS is an antisemitic hate organization, which needs to be investigated as such by the state institutions within America.

If you belong to BDS, just as if you were active in neonazi groups or the kkk, such memberships must be considered to attest to your character when you wish to join and engage with institutions in America.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:29

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

Matisyahu posted a response about a day ago on his Facebook page:

"The festival organizers contacted me because they were getting pressure from the BDS movement. They wanted me to write a letter, or make a video, stating my positions on Zionism and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to pacify the BDS people. I support peace and compassion for all people. My music speaks for itself, and I do not insert politics into my music. Music has the power to transcend the intellect, ideas, and politics, and it can unite people in the process. The festival kept insisting that I clarify my personal views; which felt like clear pressure to agree with the BDS political agenda. Honestly it was appalling and offensive, that as the one publicly Jewish-American artist scheduled for the festival they were trying to coerce me into political statements. Were any of the other artists scheduled to perform asked to make political statements in order to perform? No artist deserves to be put in such a situation simply to perform his or her art. Regardless of race, creed, country, cultural background, etc, my goal is to play music for all people. As musicians that is what we seek. - Blessed Love, Matis"

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:31

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

ToxicAcne posted:

Are most of these "others" Reform Jews?

Nah, Reform Judaism is mostly a Western movement, I think. Most of the former Soviet Jews are non-observant or basically secular - they may identify as Jewish ethnically, but not religiously. Not really surprising, considering the dim view that the Soviet Union officially took of religion in general and Judaism in particular.

Orthodox Judaism is very strict about who counts as a Jew. As far as the rabbinical court is concerned, you are not Jewish unless your mother was a born or officially converted Orthodox Jew, or unless you have been converted to Orthodox Judaism by a rabbi sanctioned by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate. On the other hand, the Law of Return considers you Jewish if any of your parents or grandparents were Jewish. So if your father was Jewish, your mother was non-Jewish, and you were raised as a religious Jew all your life, then you're still not Jewish as far as the Chief Rabbinate is concerned. You'd be allowed to immigrate as a Jew under the Law of Return, but as far as the religious authorities are concerned, the child of a non-Jewish mother is not Jewish and has to convert to Judaism just like any other non-Jew. In the Soviet Union, no one gave a poo poo about that because only the ultra-devout Orthodox were that into the details of it; most secular Jews recognized that the child of a Jew who was raised Jewish has plenty of claim to call themselves a Jew. In Israel, though, the only government organ that takes a secular view of Judaism is the immigration board; once you're in the country, someone who was raised Jewish but doesn't quite meet the halakhic matrilineal requirements is officially considered non-Jewish.

And naturally, the rabbinical courts are total jackasses about it and will refuse to allow you to convert unless you make sure to publicly lead a devout Orthodox Jewish lifestyle - for example, if you have a significant other, they may refuse to convert you unless you agree to marry as soon as you're finished converting (because premarital sex is sinful). It's not a problem you can ignore, either. In addition to the day-to-day discrimination which has already been mentioned, if you're not an officially-sanctioned member of one of the dozen or so religious communities recognized by the Israeli state, then you can't get married and cemeteries will refuse to take your body.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:31

Broken Mind: Jan 27, 2009

How many other performers have in the past made statements denying the Palestinians the right to self determination?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:34

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Broken Mind posted:

How many other performers have in the past made statements denying the Palestinians the right to self determination?

How many other performers are singled out for being Jewish musicians and denied economic opportunity because of the antisemitic movement that is BDS?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:36

WhiskeyJuvenile: Feb 15, 2002; by Nyc_Tattoo

Clearly, Haaretz is anti-semitic and in thrall to anti-semitism
:goonsay:

quote:

What I'm about to write will not come easily for me.

I used to be one of those people who took issue with the label of apartheid as applied to Israel. I was one of those people who could be counted on to argue that, while the country's settlement and occupation policies were anti-democratic and brutal and slow-dose suicidal, the word apartheid did not apply.

I'm not one of those people any more.� Not after the last few weeks.

Not after terrorists firebombed a West Bank Palestinian home, annihilating a family, murdering an 18-month-old boy and his father, burning his mother over 90 percent of her body - only to have Israel's government rule the family�ineligible�for the financial support and compensation automatically�granted Israeli victims of terrorism, settlers included.

I can't pretend anymore. Not after�Israel's Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked, explicitly declaring stone-throwing to be terrorism, drove the passage of a bill holding stone-throwers�liable to up to 20 years in prison.
The law did not specify that it targeted only Palestinian stone-throwers. It didn't have to.

Just one week later, pro-settlement Jews hurled rocks, furniture, and bottles of urine at Israeli soldiers and police at a West Bank settlement, and in response, Benjamin Netanyahu immediately rewarded the Jewish stone-throwers with a pledge to build hundreds of new settlement homes.

This is what has become of the rule of law. Two sets of books. One for Us, and one to throw at Them. Apartheid.

We are what we have created. We are what we do, and the injury we do in a thousand ways to millions of others. We are what we turn a blind eye to. Our Israel is what it has become: Apartheid.

There was a time when I drew a distinction between Benjamin Netanyahu's policies and this�country I have loved so long.

No more. Every single day we wake to yet another outrage.

I used to be a person who wanted to believe that there were moral and democratic limits � or, failing that, pragmatic constraints - to how low the prime minister was willing to go, how far he was willing to bend to the proud proponents of apartheid, in order to bolster his power.

Not any more. Not after Danny Danon.

Not when the prime minister's choice to represent all of us, all of Israel at the United Nations, is a man who�proposed�legislation�to annex the West Bank, effectively creating Bantustans for Palestinians who would live there stateless, deprived of basic human rights.

The man who will represent all of us at the United Nations, the man who will speak to the Third World on our behalf, is the same man who called African asylum seekers in Israel "a national plague."

The man who will represent all of us at the United Nations is the same politician who proposed legislation aimed at crippling left-leaning NGOs which come to the aid of Palestinian civilians and oppose the institution of occupation, while giving the government a green light to keep financially supporting right-wing NGOs suspected of�channeling funds�to support�violence�by pro-settlement Jews.

What does apartheid mean, in Israeli terms?

Apartheid means�fundamentalist clergy�spearheading the deepening of segregation, inequality, supremacism, and subjugation.

Apartheid means Likud lawmaker and former Shin Bet chief Avi Dichter calling Sunday for�separate, segregated roads and highways�for Jews and Arabs in the West Bank.

Apartheid means hundreds of attacks by settlers targeting Palestinian property, livelihoods, and lives, without convictions, charges, or even suspects. Apartheid means uncounted Palestinians jailed without trial, shot dead without trial, shot dead in the back while fleeing and without just cause.

Apartheid means Israeli officials using the army, police, military courts, and draconian administrative detentions, not only to head off terrorism, but to curtail nearly every avenue of non-violent protest available to Palestinians.

Late last month, over the explicit protest of the head of the Israeli Medical Association and human rights groups combatting torture, Israel enacted the government's "Law to Prevent Harm Caused by Hunger Strikes." The law allows force-feeding of prisoners, even if the prisoner refuses, if the striker's life is deemed in danger.

Netanyahu's Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan, who pushed hard for passage of the bill,�has called�hunger strikes by Palestinian security prisoners jailed for months without charge or trial "a �new type of suicide terrorist attack through which they will threaten the State of Israel".

Only under a system as warped as apartheid, does a government need to label and treat non-violence as terrorism.

Years ago, in apartheid South Africa, Jews who loved their country and hated its policies, took courageous roles in defeating with non-violence a regime of racism and denial of human rights.

May we in Israel follow their example.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:41

Broken Mind: Jan 27, 2009

My Imaginary GF posted:

How many other performers are singled out for being Jewish musicians and denied economic opportunity because of the antisemitic movement that is BDS?

If he is the only one who made such comments, then he is being singled out because of what he said, not because he was Jewish. If you want to show that it could only be because he is Jewish then please provide evidence of other performers there who have said things similar to him and are still being excluded. Just because he is Jewish doesn't mean he is excluded for being Jewish.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:41

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Broken Mind posted:

If he is the only one who made such comments, then he is being singled out because of what he said, not because he was Jewish. If you want to show that it could only be because he is Jewish then please provide evidence of other performers there who have said things similar to him and are still being excluded. Just because he is Jewish doesn't mean he is excluded for being Jewish.

What motivated Matisyahu to make such statements, Broken Mind? His Jewish faith.

BDS is an antisemitic hate group and deserves to be treated as such. This Matis conflagration is only the beginning of their campaign of hatred. We must call BDS before a special committee of Congress on antisemitism in America and the world so that BDS can face appropriate oversight for its hateful actions.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:47

Broken Mind: Jan 27, 2009

My Imaginary GF posted:

What motivated Matisyahu to make such statements, Broken Mind? His Jewish faith.

BDS is an antisemitic hate group and deserves to be treated as such. This Matis conflagration is only the beginning of their campaign of hatred. We must call BDS before a special committee of Congress on antisemitism in America and the world so that BDS can face appropriate oversight for its hateful actions.

So I take it you don't have an example of one of the other performers saying such things.

There are plenty of non-Jewish people who deny the existence of Palestine, so people can be motivated to such a stance without having to appeal to Jewish faith. Also, even if he was using his Jewish faith to justify his racism, that wouldn't make it okay, nor would pointing out the racism be antisemitic. The fact that many people of Jewish faith do not support Israel should show that his more controversial comments do not spring forth from his Jewish faith, though.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 19:55

My Imaginary GF: Jul 17, 2005; by R. Guyovich

Broken Mind posted:

So I take it you don't have an example of one of the other performers saying such things.

There are plenty of non-Jewish people who deny the existence of Palestine, so people can be motivated to such a stance without having to appeal to Jewish faith. Also, even if he was using his Jewish faith to justify his racism, that wouldn't make it okay, nor would pointing out the racism be antisemitic. The fact that many people of Jewish faith do not support Israel should show that his more controversial comments do not spring forth from his Jewish faith, though.

the question is one of sincerely-held belief. Do they deny the existance of Palestine out of sincerely held Jewish faith? If so, they are discriminated against by the antisemitic movement known as BDS when attacked on their Jewish faith.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:00

uninterrupted: Jun 20, 2011

My Imaginary GF posted:

What motivated Matisyahu to make such statements, Broken Mind? His Jewish faith.

BDS is an antisemitic hate group and deserves to be treated as such. This Matis conflagration is only the beginning of their campaign of hatred. We must call BDS before a special committee of Congress on antisemitism in America and the world so that BDS can face appropriate oversight for its hateful actions.

You are not allowed to have a faith that calls for the deaths of innocents, or other abominations.

If there is a branch of Judaism which hinges on the murder of innocent Palestinians, it must be rooted out and eliminated, the same as radical Islam which preaches the murder of innocents, or radical Mormonism which still practices polygamy.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:07

Broken Mind: Jan 27, 2009

My Imaginary GF posted:

the question is one of sincerely-held belief. Do they deny the existance of Palestine out of sincerely held Jewish faith? If so, they are discriminated against by the antisemitic movement known as BDS when attacked on their Jewish faith.

By that standard the nation of Israel is antisemitic and should be boycotted.

But no, the question is not one of sincerely held faith, as I already demonstrated being that one can be Jewish without having or expressing his racist beliefs. Just because someone claims to believe something because of sincerely held belief does not mean they actually believe it for that reason (unless you want to say their sincerely held beliefs about their sincerely held beliefs about why they believe what the believe, which is way too clunky and can infinitely regress).

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:09

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

WhiskeyJuvenile posted:

Clearly, Haaretz is anti-semitic and in thrall to anti-semitism

The correct term is self hating jew :eng101:

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:31

Fajita Queen: Jun 21, 2012

My Imaginary GF posted:

Jewish identity wasn't created out of opposition to the rights of Jews to own and retain the property which they had legitimately and validly acquired through their self-determination and hard endeavours. Palestinian identity did not exist at the founding of the Jewish state; Jordanian and Egyptian identity, in addition to an undercurrent of antisemitic pan-arabism, did.

Why do you support genocide?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:35

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

My Imaginary GF posted:

the question is one of sincerely-held belief. Do they deny the existance of Palestine out of sincerely held Jewish faith? If so, they are discriminated against by the antisemitic movement known as BDS when attacked on their Jewish faith.

Bullshit. Political beliefs are still open to criticism, even if they are motivated exclusively by sincerely-held faith and religious belief. This is no different from an organization which actively pursues gay rights cutting ties with a musician who claimed that homosexuality can be "cured", after first asking that musician to issue a statement of support for gay rights. Even if that belief comes from their sincerely-held Christian faith, and even if they're the only Christian musician that was invited to the event and the only musician that was asked to issue a statement clarifying their political position, that still doesn't make it discriminatory against Christians. Discriminatory against homophobes, maybe, but the role religion plays in their bigotry is irrelevant, and organizations are not obligated to excuse bigotry if a bigot cites religious justification for their views.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:44

Neurolimal: Nov 3, 2012

quote:

Late last month, over the explicit protest of the head of the Israeli Medical Association and human rights groups combatting torture, Israel enacted the government's "Law to Prevent Harm Caused by Hunger Strikes." The law allows force-feeding of prisoners, even if the prisoner refuses, if the striker's life is deemed in danger.

Netanyahu's Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan, who pushed hard for passage of the bill, has called hunger strikes by Palestinian security prisoners jailed for months without charge or trial "a new type of suicide terrorist attack through which they will threaten the State of Israel".

This is disgusting. Everyone who supported this bill should feel ashamed.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:45

Fuck You And Diebold: Sep 15, 2004; by Athanatos

My Imaginary GF posted:

the question is one of sincerely-held belief. Do they deny the existance of Palestine out of sincerely held Jewish faith? If so, they are discriminated against by the antisemitic movement known as BDS when attacked on their Jewish faith.

So given it is a sincerely held belief by Palestinians that they do exist, they are being discriminated against by the antisemitic movement known as zionism?

# ? Aug 18, 2015 20:56

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 05:00

Bear Retrieval Unit: Nov 5, 2009; Mudslide Experiment

Neurolimal posted:

This is disgusting. Everyone who supported this bill should feel ashamed.

If they could feel shame they wouldn't be in the current government.
At least so far the medical association is refusing to follow this law, though individual doctors who agree with it have been popping up in the media.

# ? Aug 18, 2015 21:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > I/P: post-semitism in the desert of the deal

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