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John Dyne posted:The difference is dude has a level 45 guy and he wants to buy the expansion, get to level 50 (however that may be), and not be assed to have to run around the world finishing whatever remains of the story quests. That really isn't a lot to ask. Me buying the game and expecting to be able to do Heavensward jobs from level 1 is different from some dude coming back after so many patches and an expansion and not getting to do anything with the expansion even after he hits max level, because he didn't get to see the triumphant ending of Final Fantasy Story Number 17. Wildstar doing a thing better than the goon favorite Final Fantasy 14. That has got to hurt. And it makes me happy.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:11
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It's weird to me that people have a problem with content being gated behind "you have to do this bunch of quests" but not with content being gated behind "you have to farm xp to level 45/60/90/whatever". e: Neverwinter and probably other games have an interesting meta option "you have to have ### GEAR SCORE"
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Aug 22, 2015 23:19
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Weird that WoW never really cribbed public quests, aka "the only enduring legacy of Warhammer Online." I think GW2 has done them best, especially with the ones that chain into new events. It's really cool helping an NPC and then actually following them a distance and seeing them start up another event.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:22
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Flesh Forge posted:It's weird to me that people have a problem with content being gated behind "you have to do this bunch of quests" but not with content being gated behind "you have to farm xp to level 45/60/90/whatever". Compare this to having to do a linear story and I can see why people dislike it.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:25
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That's only true in really old games that have been around a long time and have accumulated a lot of alternate content, and some game developers never bother to make alternate content at all (neverwinter again e.g.). TERA is a fun game but it is 100% on rails.* Why is it a good design to prevent players, even new ones, from going really wherever the gently caress they want and doing whatever they gently caress they want? Especially in games where you're supposed to be some sort of badass or hero. *admittedly there are two rails but they're parallel Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Aug 22, 2015 |
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Aug 22, 2015 23:32
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Flesh Forge posted:It's weird to me that people have a problem with content being gated behind "you have to do this bunch of quests" but not with content being gated behind "you have to farm xp to level 45/60/90/whatever". One of the largest issues with it is the way FF14's story ends up implemented. I played ARR at launch and that was great, but I also completely understood the frustration of people that ended up starting even 1-2 months in, because FF14 has a number of story points where you need a group to clear content to progress. And when everyone's moved on, that is a bitch and a half to get through for something that shouldn't be in issue in the first place. Pointed example: The end of FF14's pre-expansion story sends you into an (at the time) end-game dungeon. It was the actual dungeon run, not some solo-able story mode. I didn't have a problem doing this when I got there, because at least half of Please Be Careful was actively doing that content, either to finish their own story or as part of endgame gearing. By the time Crystal Tower was coming out, we were frequently having trouble finding enough guildies to do 'charity story runs' for people in anything like a timely manner. I point this out because that content wasn't even outdated yet. Now it's also out of date for anyone doing current endgame, which exacerbates the issue. Your other option is to play literally any other game, level to the new cap however you can, and then go do the new content everyone's actively working on.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:36
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Zizi posted:One of the largest issues with it is the way FF14's story ends up implemented. I played ARR at launch and that was great, but I also completely understood the frustration of people that ended up starting even 1-2 months in, because FF14 has a number of story points where you need a group to clear content to progress. And when everyone's moved on, that is a bitch and a half to get through for something that shouldn't be in issue in the first place. In FFXIV you get end game currency for doing low level stuff so I'm not sure what more you want?
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Aug 22, 2015 23:50
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Rorus Raz posted:Weird that WoW never really cribbed public quests, aka "the only enduring legacy of Warhammer Online." I mean for gently caress's sake healers could have a friendly target and an enemy target simultaneously. Their powers affected one or both automatically as appropriate. Why do other MMOs not do this?
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Aug 22, 2015 23:52
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Flesh Forge posted:It's weird to me that people have a problem with content being gated behind "you have to do this bunch of quests" but not with content being gated behind "you have to farm xp to level 45/60/90/whatever". The issue lies in the fact that to move the story along, you need to do dungeons and group content, and you can't do some of the content anyways unless you've gone through the story. WoW makes it easier to get past earlier levels as the content gets older and older, so you spend much less time dealing with old content versus the new content. You can get up and play with your friends in about a week or two, which means someone brand new to the game, or returning from a point where they were in older content, can actually SEE this new poo poo in their first month of subscription time. However, when you can't do a dungeon your buddies want to do because you haven't unlocked it by playing the story missions out, well... that's kinda dumb and lovely. I know that was an issue I had in FF14; I had friends who wanted to do one of the mid-level dungeons, some haunted house I think, and even though I was the appropriate level I hadn't gotten to it via the story quests yet; I'd done a lot of side quests, levees, and fates. So I had to waddle my rear end through story quests, running here and there, just to unlock the dungeon and do the run with my friends. It works for a single player game, but not for an MMO where you might have a long week at work and now you can't do poo poo with your buddies because you're five story quests behind. I can understand both sides of it but dammit, if I wanna do poo poo with my friends in a video game I'm paying for, I should be able to do that poo poo with them if I'm the right level. Making me have to fly to loving Elfland and console some upset birds just to get me closer to fighting skeletons in an abandoned mansion is stupid.
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Aug 22, 2015 23:58
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Asimo posted:I maintain that Warhammer Online was a Good Game that was crippled by a few blatantly poor decisions during its development. And because it failed everyone else completely ignored the multiple good ideas it had. Not to say the game didn't do a lot of stupid poo poo, but outside factors seemed to make it very difficult for them to have any chance at saving the game.
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Aug 23, 2015 00:18
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John Dyne posted:The issue lies in the fact that to move the story along, you need to do dungeons and group content, and you can't do some of the content anyways unless you've gone through the story. WoW makes it easier to get past earlier levels as the content gets older and older, so you spend much less time dealing with old content versus the new content. You can get up and play with your friends in about a week or two, which means someone brand new to the game, or returning from a point where they were in older content, can actually SEE this new poo poo in their first month of subscription time. You should have done the story quests. They give good xp. 
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Aug 23, 2015 00:20
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hobbesmaster posted:In FFXIV you get end game currency for doing low level stuff so I'm not sure what more you want? Well, to start with, I could care less, except to explain one reason why people feel gating expansion content behind levels is substantially better than gating it behind story quests. That said, I explained exactly what more I could want: Zizi posted:...level to the new cap however you can, and then go do the new content everyone's actively working on. Asimo posted:I mean for gently caress's sake healers could have a friendly target and an enemy target simultaneously. Their powers affected one or both automatically as appropriate. Why do other MMOs not do this? IIRC, it was actually even better than this, since WAR had targeting pass-through in specific-- which is to say, that if you targeted a friendly (like a tank), heals would land on the tank and damaging skills would pass-though to the tank's target. Less-common, you could also target an enemy, and damage skills would land on it while healing would pass-through to its target(probably either yourself or a member of your group getting chewed on). This owned so, so hard. It was also practically required by classes like Warpriests and Disciples of Khaine, who had to do damage in order to have energy to heal with in the first place. Zizi fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Aug 23, 2015 |
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Aug 23, 2015 00:31
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hobbesmaster posted:In FFXIV you get end game currency for doing low level stuff so I'm not sure what more you want? To not have game content story progress locked. You can't even just be carried through the content because anyone helping gets deleveled, so you can't just blow through it to catch up TO PLAY WITH YOUR FRIENDS. I suppose nothing I can say or argue will convince you that this is an insane business plan. But I don't think being able to hop in and play with your friends instead of grind out an extensive story first is an insane business plan.
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Aug 23, 2015 00:34
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Rorus Raz posted:I think you could make a decent argument that WAR got screwed by corporate decisions multiple times. The first being EA's decision to launch it right before Wrath of the Lich King, meaning not only was the game competing with WoW's best expansion, but it had to cut a lot of content to do so. The second being what many Games Workshop being...Games Workshop and not allowing the game to go Free-to-Play but having the devs waste their time on a horrible moba spinoff that died in beta. There was even an expansion in the works, but they were told no.  It was still the only traditional fantasy MMO to actually have fun PVP though.
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Aug 23, 2015 00:36
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Asimo posted:Yeah, it's obviously been a few years but I seem to recall the development team struggling with assorted bullshit shoved in their face by EA. Like wasn't the insanely grueling leveling curve due to them being forced to drastically boost the required XP to level like two weeks before release because the beta testers were leveling "too quickly?" With the net result of almost everyone who tried the game giving up around level 15-20 when the sheer bullshit grind was insurmountable. The PVP was indeed fun but not without its incredibly dumb decisions. Maps were level gated so once you got to lvl 11 you could no longer do the fun and hectic lvl 1-10 pvp map. That wasn't too bad initially because the second tier pvp map was also fun and hectic. Then you got to lvl 21-30 map and suddenly you not only needed a bigger team which made the queue take a lot longer, the map was basically just winding pathways over lava meaning classes with knockback would just dominate classes without it. When we got to that point basically everyone I played with together decided to not bother anymore.
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Aug 23, 2015 01:14
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Holyshoot posted:The only thing you're missing out on are the 3 jobs you don't get to play until you're level 50 and have completed the story line up to Heavensward. What you're saying is "I want to buy wow and start at level 1 and have access to garisons and alternate outland right away". That is not what people are saying at all. They're saying, "When I hit the appropriate level I should be able to access the expansion content without having to slog through a bunch of irrelevant story quests."
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Aug 23, 2015 01:30
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Shadowlyger posted:That is not what people are saying at all. They're saying, "When I hit the appropriate level I should be able to access the expansion content without having to slog through a bunch of irrelevant story quests." This. Exactly. If this were the case I would have purchased the expansion and happily run around on my fat bird mount filling my kill log with stuff and just enjoying the sights. I suspect I'm not the only one to feel this way so there are a ton of lost sales and far less dungeons filled as a result which very realistically impacts the game in numerous ways. Fortunately, Wildstar fixed this problem by not being good enough to have an expansion.
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Aug 23, 2015 01:35
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Zizi posted:...level to the new cap however you can, and then go do the new content everyone's actively working on. Still not getting why this is OK either, other than just because it's traditionally mandatory.
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Aug 23, 2015 01:50
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Flesh Forge posted:Still not getting why this is OK either, other than just because it's traditionally mandatory. Typically expansion content will begin at the old level cap and go forward. It's more a problem of levels still being a thing than anything. But even then some games will let you, or even scale you up to that content. Basically it's ok because it's the status quo. Adding in the need for story progress needlessly further hinders beyond what is normal.
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Aug 23, 2015 01:54
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Flesh Forge posted:Still not getting why this is OK either, other than just because it's traditionally mandatory. FF14 doesn't have new characters, since everyone can just change jobs, and that means this point may be lost on you but do you really, REALLY like going through content completely and utterly that you've already experienced before after making a new character? I mean, that's why WoW has compressed the XP needed to get up there, because no one wanted to make a monk in MoP and be stuck doing the poo poo they've done 10 times over on their other characters. That's why Death Knights were able to go right into Outlands right after finishing their starting zone, and why demon hunters are gonna probably be put right at the start of WoD content. That's why WoW does it. They know no one who comes back is going to want to have to be forced to do the same poo poo they've already done JUST to do the new poo poo.
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Aug 23, 2015 02:05
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Saxophone posted:To not have game content story progress locked. You can't even just be carried through the content because anyone helping gets deleveled, so you can't just blow through it to catch up TO PLAY WITH YOUR FRIENDS. For what it's worth, the expansion made it possible to do low level dungeons without level syncing, so its definitely possible for friends to blow through dungeons for you.
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Aug 23, 2015 02:35
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too bad wildstar ate dog poo poo
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Aug 23, 2015 03:02
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more like dICK posted:For what it's worth, the expansion made it possible to do low level dungeons without level syncing, so its definitely possible for friends to blow through dungeons for you. It was already possible before the expansion.
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Aug 23, 2015 03:09
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Unguided posted:It was already possible before the expansion. No it wasn't, the ability to ignore level syncs and go into a level 15 dungeon as a level 50 or 60 was added in 3.0. Of course that bit of content is added for everyone and not just for expansion havers.
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Aug 23, 2015 03:27
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Saxophone posted:This. Exactly. Just so you know, no one in the goon guild for ffxiv will ever agree with you over this. I spent a lot of posting time trying to explain this exact concept to them, and they refuse to understand it "because Final Fantasy is about the story"
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Aug 23, 2015 03:41
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I'm gonna slaughter a sacred cow here and say that across the board Final Fantasy's story has always been rubbish, in every version I've played or heard of 
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Aug 23, 2015 03:46
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Flesh Forge posted:I'm gonna slaughter a sacred cow here and say that across the board Final Fantasy's story has always been rubbish, in every version I've played or heard of Final Fantasy and most MMO are actually pretty similar in that regard. At best the story is inoffensive and doesn't get in the way while getting you to go places and kill poo poo. At worst it's Final Fantasy X.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:14
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Flesh Forge posted:It's weird to me that people have a problem with content being gated behind "you have to do this bunch of quests" but not with content being gated behind "you have to farm xp to level 45/60/90/whatever". It is EXACTLY ONE HUNDRED QUESTS that take roughly ten to fifteen hours, assuming decent but not amazing luck with the group finder. Like I really like FFXIV but forcing people to do so many quests to access the expansion and do current relevant content is dumb.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:17
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:Just so you know, no one in the goon guild for ffxiv will ever agree with you over this. I spent a lot of posting time trying to explain this exact concept to them, and they refuse to understand it "because Final Fantasy is about the story" I mean, I'd probably even go back and complete it later. For as well as that game got pulled out of the fire, this is just one massive bone-headed thing that I will never understand. Now, if I go back, I'm going to be trying to find groups for content that isn't relevant to the expansion and... ugh.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:19
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Flesh Forge posted:Still not getting why this is OK either, other than just because it's traditionally mandatory. Because I'd like to do the content everyone else is doing, not outdated poo poo no one is doing anymore.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:20
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Bombogenesis posted:It is EXACTLY ONE HUNDRED QUESTS that take roughly ten to fifteen hours, assuming decent but not amazing luck with the group finder. Like I really like FFXIV but forcing people to do so many quests to access the expansion and do current relevant content is dumb. Yeah wow that's a lot of bullshit to do at max level just to move on to current content. Not as bad as Wildstar's old attunement, but that's a loving bullshit attunement process in and of itself.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:23
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Omnicrom posted:No it wasn't, the ability to ignore level syncs and go into a level 15 dungeon as a level 50 or 60 was added in 3.0. Of course that bit of content is added for everyone and not just for expansion havers. Three or seven people with endgame gear could easily carry a newbie through the quest dungeons easy. The only hard ones were the last two fights and the second one got nerfed hard because it was the last mandatory instance before the expansion.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:23
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Unguided posted:Three or seven people with endgame gear could easily carry a newbie through the quest dungeons easy. The only hard ones were the last two fights and the second one got nerfed hard because it was the last mandatory instance before the expansion. Then I suppose that further begs the question; If you're dumbing down content to make it way easier just so people can get through it to play the shiny stuff, why even make them?! 
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Aug 23, 2015 04:34
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Shadowlyger posted:Because I'd like to do the content everyone else is doing, not outdated poo poo no one is doing anymore. But because of FFXIV level synching and the rewards for roulettes there are end game players doing those things.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:40
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Bombogenesis posted:It is EXACTLY ONE HUNDRED QUESTS that take roughly ten to fifteen hours, assuming decent but not amazing luck with the group finder. Like I really like FFXIV but forcing people to do so many quests to access the expansion and do current relevant content is dumb. Also note that almost none of those quests contain anything fun. 80+% are just traveling to a zone to talk to an npc who tells you to travel to another zone.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:48
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Mattavist posted:Also note that almost none of those quests contain anything fun. 80+% are just traveling to a zone to talk to an npc who tells you to travel to another zone. Is it possible to do those on a cool-rear end flying mount? Because having a cool-rear end flying mount increased the bullshit I was willing to put up with drastically in WoW.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:58
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These complaints make no sense to me. The stuff you are doing in the 2.x story is very relevant to what happens in heavensward. It isn't wasted content. Further, the content isn't really new either since it's the exact same bear rear end collecting and running all over creation as the 2.X content. If you already don't want to do that then I don't even know why you would be looking at Ff14 to begin with. Obviously people looking to level one of the new jobs are sol and that was dumb imo.
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Aug 23, 2015 04:59
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Because walking around and talking to NPCs is really loving boring. All of it could take place in a 10 minute cutscene.
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Aug 23, 2015 05:01
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Failboattootoot posted:These complaints make no sense to me. The stuff you are doing in the 2.x story is very relevant to what happens in heavensward. It isn't wasted content. Further, the content isn't really new either since it's the exact same bear rear end collecting and running all over creation as the 2.X content. If you already don't want to do that then I don't even know why you would be looking at Ff14 to begin with. Eh, it does take a while to do and many of them drag on (loving Ramuh chain). There's nothing really difficult about them, just annoying. It made sense at release because you'd play these story stuff with each new patch rather than doing them all at once. There's six trials (boss fights) and two mandatory dungeons and they're nothing special in terms of difficulty though that doesn't stop other players from being a liability. They're all included in the various daily bonuses for doing roulettes too so they're mostly full of players who've already cleared the content before.
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Aug 23, 2015 05:08
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GW2, while their whole "limited time content" thing was awful, did do a cool recap for the first "season" where an NPC does a summary of it via cutscene and you get a bit of loot for sitting through it. If you're SUPER curious about it then you have the option to get futher details on specific characters.
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Aug 23, 2015 05:13
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