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Tatum Girlparts posted:What does this even mean? Literally force Israelis to stay in Israel? Bar them from entering other countries? Silence them if they speak outside Israel? All of the above, and yes, a coup if necessary. The current situation is unacceptable. All citizens of Israel are guilty, as they all pay taxes and serve in the military of an apartheid regime. Again, would there be this much bellyaching of hurting peoples precious fee-fees while they herd a minority into ghettos if we were talking about Nazi Germany?
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Aug 29, 2015 03:23
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uninterrupted posted:All of the above, and yes, a coup if necessary. The current situation is unacceptable. Maybe other people are interested in playing oppression Olympics with you. Me, I am asking whether the sanction is legitimate and others also ask whether it will be effective. None of your posts have touched on either of these, the actual relevant aspects of policy.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:25
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Maybe other people are interested in playing oppression Olympics with you. Me, I am asking whether the sanction is legitimate and others also ask whether it will be effective. None of your posts have touched on either of these, the actual relevant aspects of policy. How could it not be legitimate? People are allowed to spend their money and associate with who they wish. Unless you're implying people should be required to buy israeli goods? As far as effectiveness, again, the sanctions against South Africa were a major reason for the fall of apartheid.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:32
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uninterrupted posted:How could it not be legitimate? People are allowed to spend their money and associate with who they wish. Unless you're implying people should be required to buy israeli goods? We are discussing an event rejecting an Israeli film-maker due to his national origins, which is discrimination. People and institutions are sometimes allowed to be bigots, but should they? I don't think so. I could use my freedom of association to call on other people to boycott the Norwegian institution for being racist. Because of an action they performed, not because they are Norwegian. See the difference? quote:As far as effectiveness, again, the sanctions against South Africa were a major reason for the fall of apartheid. There is no evidence that cultural sanctions against individuals were what broke South Africa. And there is no evidence that individual sanctions are working in the Israeli case. As I said, the more likely scenario seems to me to be that people will see this as evidence of European antisemitism, and there are plenty enough cultural creators and events in Israel. If you think making Israelis more insular will help Palestinians, well, I'd like to see arguments to that effect. Finally, as I showed before, PACBI, the leading, Palestinian-run BDS organization is against individual boycotts as McCarthyist. It's pretty rich of you to accuse me of not treating Palestinians as real people and then ignoring what real Palestinian organizations are saying.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:38
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uninterrupted posted:All of the above, and yes, a coup if necessary. The current situation is unacceptable. Maybe we could make them wear something so we're sure we don't accidentally do business with them or help them. Something easy, a badge maybe? Do you consider yourself guilty for America's actions? When will you be leading the coup, brother? Where should we meet to assault the capital? After all as you just said, EVERYONE is guilty, better get to fixing that!
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Aug 29, 2015 03:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:We are discussing an event rejecting an Israeli film-maker due to his national origins, which is discrimination. People and institutions are sometimes allowed to be bigots, but should they? I don't think so. I could use my freedom of association to call on other people to boycott the Norwegian institution for being racist. Because of an action they performed, not because they are Norwegian. See the difference? Israelis support the palestinian occupation because it costs them literally nothing to. Because there are no consequences to them and they can hid behind "oh no, i think it's awful, but what can you?" Sanctions will force the Israeli public's hand, and since they cannot attack governments that don't interact with them, and attacking palestinians is the entire reason behind BDS, they will attack the government institutions that forced BDS into being. That's why posters like you and insect court and migf immediately flip out about BDS working; it is an existential threat to israeli occupation and ethnic cleansing of palestinian land. PACBI has to put on a public face, and unfortunately the majority of the world doesn't care about palestine and is not willing to do what is needed to ensure palestinian safety and stability. What's next, you're gonna quote the one black cop saying all the ferguson protesters just need to pull up their pants and stop listening to rap music?
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Aug 29, 2015 03:47
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uninterrupted posted:Israelis support the palestinian occupation because it costs them literally nothing to. Because there are no consequences to them and they can hid behind "oh no, i think it's awful, but what can you?" Sanctions will force the Israeli public's hand, and since they cannot attack governments that don't interact with them, and attacking palestinians is the entire reason behind BDS, they will attack the government institutions that forced BDS into being. That's why posters like you and insect court and migf immediately flip out about BDS working; it is an existential threat to israeli occupation and ethnic cleansing of palestinian land. You are, by far, one of the dumbest people in this thread, and that includes guys like Insect Court. So the PACBI REALLY believes we should be isolating Israel in the literal sense, by not allowing any Israeli out, like you do, but they have to hide it for reasons, and saying the words they say may represent what they think is like pulling a 'one of the good ones' with a cop, huh?
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Aug 29, 2015 03:52
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uninterrupted posted:Israelis support the palestinian occupation because it costs them literally nothing to. Because there are no consequences to them and they can hid behind "oh no, i think it's awful, but what can you?" Sanctions will force the Israeli public's hand, and since they cannot attack governments that don't interact with them, and attacking palestinians is the entire reason behind BDS, they will attack the government institutions that forced BDS into being. That's why posters like you and insect court and migf immediately flip out about BDS working; it is an existential threat to israeli occupation and ethnic cleansing of palestinian land. If you discriminate according to national origins then you are a bigot. Plain and simple. If you attack institutions and government agencies for policies they conduct, that applies pressure without the bigotry. That is why, I imagine, BDS supports the latter, rather than the former. Years of bigotry against Israelis by Palestinian organizations and soi-disant pro-Palestinian intelligentsia, in which they refused to work or talk to any Israeli regardless of circumstances, brought no progress to the Palestinian cause. quote:PACBI has to put on a public face, and unfortunately the majority of the world doesn't care about palestine and is not willing to do what is needed to ensure palestinian safety and stability. What's next, you're gonna quote the one black cop saying all the ferguson protesters just need to pull up their pants and stop listening to rap music? So you are saying that PACBI, which publishes and publicizes the parameters for BDS, and is run by Palestinians, is either not sufficiently representative of Palestinians to be counted as more as the one black cop, or are deceitful and making public announcements which should not be trusted? I mean, I know quite a few Israeli right-wingers who would be happy to quote you on that, because it would feed into the same paranoia which has made the Israeli political sphere more and more right wing in the past couple of decades. The fact of the matter is that you are attempting to hide your hatred and bigotry behind a veil of political expediency and sympathy for Palestinians, and it isn't very convincing on either count.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:52
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If you discriminate according to national origins then you are a bigot. Plain and simple. Oh please, there is no "correct" way palestinian organizations could apply pressure. Whatever they do they are plagued with accusations of anti-semitism for maybe not wanting missiles flying through their windows. I have nothing against israelis except that the brutally oppress palestinians. Once that stops BDS has no reason to exist. Again, to you the lives of millions of palestinians are disposable, but by god some reggae musician better be allowed to play where he pleases.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:59
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If an Israeli person is against the colonialism but just can't or won't join a militia to overthrow the Israeli government, should they be allowed to visit family in France or should they be embargoed?
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Aug 29, 2015 04:02
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uninterrupted posted:Oh please, there is no "correct" way palestinian organizations could apply pressure. Whatever they do they are plagued with accusations of anti-semitism for maybe not wanting missiles flying through their windows. Sometimes the accusations of bigotry are true. Like in your case, bigot. quote:I have nothing against israelis except that the brutally oppress palestinians. Once that stops BDS has no reason to exist. You promote discrimination according to national origin, and are therefore a bigot. quote:Again, to you the lives of millions of palestinians are disposable, but by god some reggae musician better be allowed to play where he pleases. I don't care about Matisyahu, he made his own stupid racist declarations, and should have simply been barred from that event for all I care. But Roy Zafrani's movie about disabled children being barred because it didn't touch on the right subjects is bigoted. And you are a bigot for supporting it. Nor do you care about a single Palestinian, much less millions, you bigot.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:03
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By your own logic, uninterrupted, all Palestinians are dangerous terrorists because by not doing everything in their power to hand over the people responsible, they tacitly support child suicide bombings, and thus the heavy restrictions on them are justified. I don't think you've thought your clever plan through very well.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Sometimes the accusations of bigotry are true. Like in your case, bigot. *sits on a sofa watching Gaza bombed* "Ugh, can you believe these people, just because we're massacring civilians by the thousands they won't show a movie!" You can cry bigot all you want, you support the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians out of convenience. You have to sleep with that, not me.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:06
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uninterrupted posted:*sits on a sofa watching Gaza bombed* "Ugh, can you believe these people, just because we're massacring civilians by the thousands they won't show a movie!" No I don't. You just think I do, because I'm Israeli, and you're a bigot.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:07
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uninterrupted posted:*sits on a sofa watching Gaza bombed* "Ugh, can you believe these people, just because we're massacring civilians by the thousands they won't show a movie!" Hey serious question how do you feel about Jews as a whole because holy gently caress this is bordering on some creepy poo poo.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:14
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Hey serious question how do you feel about Jews as a whole because holy gently caress this is bordering on some creepy poo poo. Follow up question: do Jews who oppose the treatment of Palestinians have a duty/obligation to get Israeli citizenship as fast as possible to vote in anti-apartheid parties in Israel? Should pressure be applied to Jews who can get citizenship but refuse?
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Aug 29, 2015 04:16
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Hey serious question how do you feel about Jews as a whole because holy gently caress this is bordering on some creepy poo poo. The ones who don't fund and abet mass murder are cool. The other ones kind of suck. How do you feel about the germans living in weimar, circa late 30s-mid 40s.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:17
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Aug 29, 2015 04:24
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uninterrupted posted:The ones who don't fund and abet mass murder are cool. The other ones kind of suck. Hey bad question there, my family that stayed there had a poo poo ton of Romanians, ya know, the dudes who got real bad with the holocaust? I guess those guys shoulda done the right thing and led a coup solo while their brothers and sisters (literally) were being taken to death camps. I suppose they're just as bad as the SS dudes, yea? DrProsek posted:Follow up question: do Jews who oppose the treatment of Palestinians have a duty/obligation to get Israeli citizenship as fast as possible to vote in anti-apartheid parties in Israel? Should pressure be applied to Jews who can get citizenship but refuse? Also a good question. If yes, will you at least pay my ticket, kinda a dick move to stick me with the airfare. I'll even settle for business class.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:25
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So, broadly speaking, the question really is "how much responsibility do the citizens of a democracy have for the actions of their representatives and governments", right?
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Aug 29, 2015 04:44
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Broken Mind posted:So, broadly speaking, the question really is "how much responsibility do the citizens of a democracy have for the actions of their representatives and governments", right? More or less, with an undertone of 'is collective punishment of an entire nation's people for the actions of their worst an effective tool or will it just breed resentment and anger' and a dash of 'hey this is kinda creepy the level of fixation you have while not holding yourself to the same standard'.
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Aug 29, 2015 05:23
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Absurd Alhazred posted:This isn't answering the question. As Omar Barghouti, founding member of PACBI, the leading authority on what BDS is about, noted, boycotting this film is not a sanctioned action by BDS; it doesn't even seem to live up to "common-sense" boycott standards. Are you saying that BDS is not strict enough in their boycott policy? As I posted above, the anti-apartheid cultural boycotts went well beyond the level of BDS boycotts. BDS leadership is free to disagree with the harshness of such boycotts on principle, but it's not some unprecedented violation of boycott etiquette or something. Absurd Alhazred posted:All right. Let me rephrase this: are you two, Neurolimal and uninterrupted, accusing the closest thing there is to leadership of BDS of being too soft on Israel? Yes, absolutely. It's not as if they're the authority on being "hard on Israel" - that would belong to organizations far less nice than BDS.
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Aug 29, 2015 05:23
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Main Paineframe posted:As I posted above, the anti-apartheid cultural boycotts went well beyond the level of BDS boycotts. BDS leadership is free to disagree with the harshness of such boycotts on principle, but it's not some unprecedented violation of boycott etiquette or something. Is there any evidence that this is what worked, though, vs the national level, and economic focused, ones?
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Aug 29, 2015 05:29
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Neurolimal posted:I'm suggesting that effective cultural boycotts require tough actions worthy of justified scrutiny. Its not easy to boycott a heavily sympathetic film about disabled children, but like I said, allowing exceptions to a cultural boycott based on percieved neutrality to the subject leads yo an ineffective method to exclude a country from global participation. So is it acceptable to stigmatize, delegitimize, and exclude not just Jewish Israelis(even those whose work product is unrelated to the occupation, as was the case with this film festival) and non-Israeli Jews whose publicly held views are considered to be insufficiently anti-Zionist? If you're happy to tolerate(or force the Jews and Israelis subject to this ever expanding boycott to endure) "unfortunate casualties", how far are you willing to go? Do you support the "activists" who pull kosher food off of shelves? Should European authorities abandon efforts to crack down on anti-semitism if its presence ends up isolating and stigmatizing Israel? uninterrupted posted:All citizens of Israel are guilty, as they all pay taxes and serve in the military of an apartheid regime. Again, would there be this much bellyaching of hurting peoples precious fee-fees while they herd a minority into ghettos if we were talking about Nazi Germany? uninterrupted posted:The ones who don't fund and abet mass murder are cool. The other ones kind of suck. When I talk about antisemitism masquerading as anti-Zionism, stuff like this is what I'm talking about. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 05:44
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DrProsek posted:Follow up question: do Jews who oppose the treatment of Palestinians have a duty/obligation to get Israeli citizenship as fast as possible to vote in anti-apartheid parties in Israel? Should pressure be applied to Jews who can get citizenship but refuse? No? Tatum Girlparts posted:Hey bad question there, my family that stayed there had a poo poo ton of Romanians, ya know, the dudes who got real bad with the holocaust? I guess those guys shoulda done the right thing and led a coup solo while their brothers and sisters (literally) were being taken to death camps. I suppose they're just as bad as the SS dudes, yea? You didn't answer my question. How do you feel about the germans living in weimar, circa late 30s-mid 40s? Beyond that, how would you feel about them if, instead of having a dictator take control before the Holocaust began, they had democratically elected politician after politician who campaigned on keeping Buchenwald open? Tatum Girlparts posted:Is there any evidence that this is what worked, though, vs the national level, and economic focused, ones? Yes; the boycotts were applied, and apartheid ended. I'm not sure what more proof you need. If Israelis want BDS to end, there are existing democratic avenues for them to make that happen. If Israelis don't take advantage of them, BDS will continue, and Israelis as a whole will suffer the consequences.
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Aug 29, 2015 05:47
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I'm Jewish.
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Aug 29, 2015 06:24
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uninterrupted posted:No? Weird I figured explaining that my family was literally in nazi-occupied land that was super into the holocaust was enough, sorry. "The Germans" is the literal broadest term possible. Like yea, the SS, an all volunteer group pretty much rooted around 'yo, you hate the underclass?', gently caress all those dudes. The rando dude holding a machine gun? That's a deeper issue, is he a draftee, is he a poor guy who had no future in the militarized Germany other than this or dangerous factory work, is he a guy who said 'yea no, this guy's right, the Jews ARE ruining Germany and Poland IS ours to take'? Are you asking me if I view Franz the baker who never voted at all because he's more focused on baking bread and poo poo as equal to a guy actively campaigning for your alternate universe Hitler who was democratically elected instead of a cartoonish failure? What about the people who opposed Hitler, not even the 'let's blow him up in his office' dudes, what about Franz the baker's cousin Olaf the dude who sells glass poo poo who, when Hitler was elected went 'woah gently caress that poo poo' and had actively campaigned for peaceful leadership in the election? How about you tell me what you think of those dudes, spoiler alert I'm mainly talking about the last couple I kinda don't give a poo poo either way what Hans the Wehrmacht grunt thinks. Does Olaf not matter unless he actively takes up arms? Is Franz' apathy the same as active approval? Moreover, really because gently caress this stupid alt history nonsense way to whitewash Hitler's oppressive rise to power to prove a point you weirdo, you never answered my last question (hella rude to ask me a question without that, duder), are you American? By your own logic are you not exactly as guilty for our imperialism and oppression as the people who actively support it because, unless you found a super chill revolutionary cell, you're not out planning a coup yourself. Why do you hold Israeli randos to a higher standard than yourself?
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Aug 29, 2015 06:25
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Avshalom posted:I'm Jewish. Problematic
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Aug 29, 2015 06:26
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uninterrupted posted:All of the above, and yes, a coup if necessary. The current situation is unacceptable. I asked you this like three times, but you keep dodging the question, are you not an american, citizen of the greatest terror and violence exporter in the world? Cause you seem to have all of these feelings towards Israel, and I'm left wondering, are you not a hypocritical piece of poo poo? Edit: some typical 'If Americans Knew' styled piece of poo poo with some very obvious seething below the surface brand of antisemitism. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 09:56
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emanresu tnuocca posted:I asked you this like three times, but you keep dodging the question, are you not an american, citizen of the greatest terror and violence exporter in the world? Cause you seem to have all of these feelings towards Israel, and I'm left wondering, are you not a hypocritical piece of poo poo? This big difference is we had our Manifest Destiny phase when it was morally acceptable to beat up on your neighbor and take his land. America's current worldwide destruction has little similarity to Israelis literally killing their neighbors literally.
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Aug 29, 2015 10:02
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uninterrupted posted:All citizens of Israel are guilty, as they all pay taxes and serve in the military of an apartheid regime. This is ridiculous coming from an American. You might as well be paying your taxes directly to the Knesset as far as occupation policy goes. The United States is just as responsible for the fate of Palestine as Israel is. You need to get a reality check.
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Aug 29, 2015 10:09
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Aspergeoisie posted:This big difference is we had our Manifest Destiny phase when it was morally acceptable to beat up on your neighbor and take his land. America's current worldwide destruction has little similarity to Israelis literally killing their neighbors literally. I am not even talking about the complete genocide of the indigenous population and 200 years of apartheid and slavery. As for the latter part, it is nice for you to be preaching to Israelis who genuinely feel (whether justly or not) that they are in a mortal struggle with their neighbors that your invasions and quasi-genocides on the other part of the planet are some how more noble because 'it has little similarities', cause they're 'literally neighbors'? huh?
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Aug 29, 2015 10:10
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Is there any evidence that this is what worked, though, vs the national level, and economic focused, ones? Well, first of all, there is an economic component - if no one will buy South African music and no English-speaking nation will sell their TV shows to South Africa, then that brings home the reality of international disapproval of apartheid to the average citizen far more than an arms embargo does. Second, there's no evidence that any one specific thing was the one single thing that worked to end apartheid; it was most likely a number of different things combined that swayed South African opinion, with no one single thing being the deciding factor that people can point to. The anti-apartheid movement was huge, both inside and outside South Africa, and it's frankly disrespectful to say that any one thing was the thing that ended apartheid. However, cultural and sporting boycotts seem to me to be far more humane than an economic boycott, as it inconveniences the general population pretty hard but without imposing the kind of actual hardship that something like an oil embargo would bring. Besides, when has effectiveness ever stopped a group from trying anyway? Look at how effective the US embargo of Cuba was at accomplishing the hoped-for regime change. Does that mean that all economic embargos ever are pointless and shouldn't be bothered with?
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Aug 29, 2015 13:30
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What exactly is the difference between boycotting an institution and boycotting an individual? Institutions are made of individuals, and individuals work in institutions. Roy Zafrani's movie was apparently produced without public subsidies, but just for the sake of argument let's suppose it was (or just imagine a different movie altogether). Would that make it an institutional movie instead of an individual movie? Honestly the best post so far in this thread. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 13:32
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I just bought a sodastream machine becuase I support Israel and the colonies.
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Aug 29, 2015 15:01
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Cat Mattress posted:What exactly is the difference between boycotting an institution and boycotting an individual? Institutions are made of individuals, and individuals work in institutions. Every Avshalom post is the best post. Avshalom, you may be happy to know that my phone tried to autocorrect "post" to "pussy"
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Aug 29, 2015 19:01
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While I fall on the side against individual sanctions, it's mostly due to the fact that there's little evidence that they were the deciding factor in ending South African Apartheid (much less that they would be effective in Israel). That being said, I generally tend to find arguments that place the value of certain human rights (like freedom of expression; that is, ones that don't direct result in significant loss of human life) above that of actual human lives to be pretty bad. If there were magically evidence that individual cultural sanctions against Israel definitely, 100% would end their occupation of Palestinians and related crimes, then I would be in favor of it. But because there isn't, I'm not willing to do what is inherently a bad thing just in the uncertain hopes of ending an even worse thing. Even though most of his posting has been dumb, I think uninterrupted's point about Nazi Germany is "do you value avoiding discrimination against a country's people more than you value millions of human lives," which would be a valid point if we had solid evidence that individual sanctions would be effective. Since we don't, his insistence on it makes his motivations questionable (along with his refusal so far to address accusations of hypocrisy with respect to living in a country like America). So I guess what I'm saying here is that even though I agree with the anti-cultural sanctions people in this thread, I disagree with some of them in principle. I don't think "cultural sanctions are bad and cause some harm to innocent people" is an effective argument if doing them would also save and greatly improve countless lives. I just think that, because cultural sanctions are inherently a "wrong", that they shouldn't be levied unless there is very strong evidence that they'll be effective.
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Aug 29, 2015 21:48
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All this hand-wringing over whether or not it's acceptable to uphold a cultural ban on israeli films and music is really kind of missing the point in that there's this underlying assumption that all of the citizens of a democratic nation can be held equally responsible for the actions of it's governments. The inverse is demonstrably true. As a matter of fact no matter the existing power structure the sole responsibility, ideally, for all decisions must be laid on the actual people and entities that run the apparatus of the state. The idea that each citizen shares in the fruits and therefore the actual policies of their country is a criminal oversimplification and misunderstanding of modern democratic states that rely just as heavily on propaganda as the most heavy-handed francoist dictatorship you can think of. Personally I think it's odious a guy who made a film about disabled children got barred from a few places but Paineframe made an excellent point in demonstrating how cultural boycotts are far less damaging to the everyday lives of citizens in israel. With that said, my stance on the issue is one of examining each instance individually and applying the mechanisms of boycott to each one. Is israel in the middle of some golden age and therefore pumping out a deluge of quality films/albums so much that deigning to review the content of each is so taxing on BDS supporters they must make these knee-jerk reactions to israeli art? I personally support BDS, because nothing will stop the occupation until it finally becomes another cost the state must sustain, along with it's large and growing nonworking haredim population, it's bloated military budget, etc. Speaking of that does anyone know if the economic reforms proposed earlier this year(mainly budget cuts, reallocations, pension reductions)go through or did they get blocked in a fit of patriotic fervor? Also lol at uninterrupted's squirming and refusal to answer whether or not they're american.
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Aug 30, 2015 14:47
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Ultramega posted:Speaking of that does anyone know if the economic reforms proposed earlier this year(mainly budget cuts, reallocations, pension reductions)go through or did they get blocked in a fit of patriotic fervor? Neither. They were... Deferred. quote:Sir Humphrey: "Well, if I might suggest that we be realistic about this."
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Aug 30, 2015 15:08
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Yeah, figured as much.
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Aug 30, 2015 15:28
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