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Xander77 posted:Was being an antisemitic dickbag his fault? I've never really checked to make a list of historic anti-Semites but based on the prevalence of historical anti-Semitic opinions I'd assume a lot of historic artists and authors held anti-Semitic view, especially if depending on where we set the bar like whether Shylock makes Shakespeare an anti-Semite. Although his anti-Semitism is his own fault I think we have to accept that it's due to being a favourite of Hitler that he's picked out rather than his anti-Semitism. Of course I don't really see it as an issue either because he's been dead for over a century. If Israel feels better banning him, let them.
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Sep 1, 2015 10:23
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Cat Mattress posted:Yeah but how is that Wagner's fault? Dude died in 1883, fully six years before Hitler was even born. Cause Netanyahu is literally Hitler. You can boycott all you want, you can actually be openly antisemitic like your heart desires, it's just that for many in the BDS movement being openly antisemitic is considered to be undesirable, that's kind of their own thing, it's rather telling that for quite a few posters in this thread the appearance of antisemitism is rather irrelevant though. Only 5 pages ago you said it was ok to boycott matisyahu cause he said "As far as I know there wasn't a country called palestine before 1948, was there?" and now you're making some disingenuous argument pretending a popular concensus against publicly playing the works of a person who wrote loving this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Judenthum_in_der_Musik is racist against germans.
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Sep 1, 2015 10:23
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Cause Netanyahu is literally Hitler. Not to put words in his mouth, but I'm assuming that if the performers of Wagner has expressed anti-Semitic views and talked about driving the Jews into the sea or whatever then Cat Mattress would be fine with their performance being banned, especially if they were meant to be playing at a festival designed to support human rights. If they weren't anti-Semitic performers but were playing music that promoted anti-Semitism then presumably he would also be happy to see it banned. If it's non-racist performers playing non-racist music written by an anti-Semite then he may still support the boycott to stop the profiting of an anti-Semite (I'd support the boycott here). The difference is that what we're actually talking about is non-racist performers playing non-racist music by a composer who was anti-Semitic but is dead and will in no way benefit from having people performing his work. The basic rationale behind BDS is to take action against anti-humanitarian actions and ideologies directed towards harming Palestinians and hence help to disincentive them and work towards peace and the establishment of a Palestinian state. With Wagner no anti-Semitic behaviour is being disincentivised or punished and nothing of benefit is being worked towards. I mean let them do it if they want, it's not the end of the world, but the rationales for banning it aren't comparable and I think it's fine for someone to have a stance of boycotting one being acceptable and boycotting the other being ridiculous because they are fundamentally different.
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Sep 1, 2015 10:45
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There is no boycott of any performing artist, there is a popular consensus against playing Wagner's works. Daniel Barenboim isn't banned from performing in Israel (well, yet, at least) even though he played Wagner in an encore in Tel-Aviv. It's just really, really, not some racist boycott of german cultural produce like those two are trying to spin it into it. Touse MIGF's weasel words, the livelihood of any living artist is not jeopardized by this Israeli anti-wagner boycott, that is unless their entire repertoire consists of Wagner's works in which case it's a bit of a shame but too much of a cosmic coincidence to be relevant. And to reiterate, this 'boycott' of Wagner's works is not meant to discourage nazism or have any political significance, it's more about defiance against Nazi ideals, it's a very specific thing against a somewhat anti-semitic composer whose works were regretfully appropriated by the nazi party and turned into the soundtrack of nazism and genocide. When Palestine is free and independent I'm rather convinced not a single person here would claim it's racist against Israelis for palestinians to be opposed to performing music written by someone like Amir Benayoun or Yoav "The Shadow" Eliassi. Actually in such a hypothetical scenario everyone itt would defend the categorical right of palestinians to ban all Israeli (and/or jewish) works in perpetuity without batting an eyelash.
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Sep 1, 2015 11:09
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Dance The Mutation posted:What would you do if you were a solider and someone was throwing rocks at you? It's easy to criticize a soldier from the comfort of your computer. I would desert instead of participating in the colonialist occupation of foreign territory, and move to a country which isn't engaged in an ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing motivated by racialist and religious pretexts. emanresu tnuocca posted:Cause Netanyahu is literally Hitler. In so far as he is the leader of a country engaging in a project to build more Lebensraum, yes he is. emanresu tnuocca posted:Only 5 pages ago you said it was ok to boycott matisyahu cause he said "As far as I know there wasn't a country called palestine before 1948, was there?" and now you're making some disingenuous argument pretending a popular concensus against publicly playing the works of a person who wrote loving this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Judenthum_in_der_Musik is racist against germans. That's a different argument from "Hitler liked it". It's okay to boycott Wagner for things Wagner actually did. In short: "I boycott Wagner because he's German!" -> Bad reason "I boycott Wagner because Hitler liked his music!" -> Bad reason "I boycott Wagner because he wrote bigoted nonsense!" -> Good reason Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 11:18
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-Troika- posted:The soldier doesn't get to decide where he goes and doesn't go. Xander77 posted:Because they already are in Israel, duuuuuuuuuh.
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Sep 1, 2015 11:30
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emanresu tnuocca posted:There is no boycott of any performing artist, there is a popular consensus against playing Wagner's works. Daniel Barenboim isn't banned from performing in Israel (well, yet, at least) even though he played Wagner in an encore in Tel-Aviv. What makes BDS a boycott but not the Israeli refusal to play Wagner? Looking at the evidence I'd probable place the grass roots popular boycott of Wagner within Israel as more effective at boycotting Wagner than the left-wing organised BDS movement is at boycotting Israeli culture in the rest of the world. In intent they're both looking to achieve the same aims, it's just structural differences between a populist cultural understanding and left-wing activism. Also it is not inherently bad to restrict people's ability to make money. It might be a shame, but simply pointing out that people lose opportunities to work 9which is kind of the entire point) doesn't actually show why that is wrong. Like I said it's fine to play Wagner or ban Wagner. Based on your own personal values you personally may very well want to support a ban or to not do so. I don't think you should but it doesn't really matter to me, go wild either way. However what you need to recognise that is based on your own personal values and others don't necessarily agree with you (and that disagreement isn't due to anti-Semitism). A living performer espousing racist views now and performances of a long dead guy who was racist 130 years are not inherently comparable and people may very reasonably view a ban on the former as appropriate and a ban on the latter as inappropriate. Lastly gently caress right off with that accusation of anti-Semitism thrown at everyone in the thread at the end there.
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Sep 1, 2015 12:34
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Neurolimal posted:kevlar/ceramic armor and helmet. pictured: armor and helmet 
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Sep 1, 2015 13:03
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Wagner was human trash but he made great music. Since I doubt many things would make him spin faster in his grave than having his work performed by a jews in a jewish country a ban on his work seems silly.
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Sep 1, 2015 13:10
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:pictured: armor and helmet
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Sep 1, 2015 13:37
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XMNN posted:To be fair there is a big gently caress-off gun in this picture, you can just make it out in front of the small crying child he's wrestling. also pictured: excellent trigger discipline
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Sep 1, 2015 13:38
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:pictured: armor and helmet The dude in question was a part of some ill-advised idea to have an unarmored dude that could chase down fleeing rock throwers. If I were immediately concerned for the IDF's health I'd probably rail on this policy than natural resistance.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:23
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Neurolimal posted:The dude in question was a part of some ill-advised idea to have an unarmored dude that could chase down fleeing rock throwers. If I were immediately concerned for the IDF's health I'd probably rail on this policy than natural resistance. Don't throw rocks at people with guns if you aren't willing to have those weapons used against you.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:59
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My Imaginary GF posted:Don't throw rocks at people with guns if you aren't willing to have those weapons used against you. Nice victim blaming, perhaps Israel shouldn't oppress Palestinians if they don't want rocks thrown at them by 12 year olds? Perfect example of the power imbalance that the pro Israeli government zionists in here ignore
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Sep 1, 2015 15:05
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Nice victim blaming, perhaps Israel shouldn't oppress Palestinians if they don't want rocks thrown at them by 12 year olds? Perfect example of the power imbalance that the pro Israeli government zionists in here ignore Like during protests against the Vietnam War, it is usually almost entirely unacceptable to throw rocks at armed forces serving a legitimate function. Where were those childrens' parents? They should be facing imprisonment for parental neglect; if they were better parents, their children wouldn't throw rocks at men with guns.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:07
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I think if you find yourself wrestling a child you have hosed up somehow.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:10
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My Imaginary GF posted:Like during protests against the Vietnam War, it is usually almost entirely unacceptable to throw rocks at armed forces serving a legitimate function. Even migf can't excuse the soldier's actions here
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Sep 1, 2015 15:11
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Even migf can't excuse the soldier's actions here The soldier was definding the state institutions of his Jewish nation. The child throwing rocks was angry and unwilling to recognize their inherent priviledges, and how Jews have a right to their own state institutions. The child was coveting that of his Jewish neighbors, and the soldier was performing a mitzvot.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:17
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My Imaginary GF posted:The soldier was definding the state institutions of his Jewish nation. The child throwing rocks was angry and unwilling to recognize their inherent priviledges, and how Jews have a right to their own state institutions. The child was coveting that of his Jewish neighbors, and the soldier was performing a mitzvot. You cannot ascribe such motivations to a twelve year old you do not know, perhaps it was an unrestrained cry against the unjust actions of the Israeli state in constructing illegal settlements on his land. Assaulting such a child is not a mitzvot
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Sep 1, 2015 15:32
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:You cannot ascribe such motivations to a twelve year old you do not know, perhaps it was an unrestrained cry against the unjust actions of the Israeli state in constructing illegal settlements on his land. Assaulting such a child is not a mitzvot Did the child own a lawful deed to the land? No, because he was 12? Then it is not "his" land, now is it? Children should not throw rocks at the lawful agents of state institutions, especially when those agents are armed. If a child was throwing rocks at the police in your neighborhood, wouldn't you want them to be arrested?
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Sep 1, 2015 15:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:Like during protests against the Vietnam War, it is usually almost entirely unacceptable to throw rocks at armed forces serving a legitimate function. If your posting is any reflection on your upbringing I don't think you're in any position to criticize other people's parenting. My Imaginary GF posted:The soldier was definding the state institutions of his Jewish nation. The child throwing rocks was angry and unwilling to recognize their inherent priviledges, and how Jews have a right to their own state institutions. The child was coveting that of his Jewish neighbors, and the soldier was performing a mitzvot. You literally sound like a crazy person here.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:36
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My Imaginary GF posted:Did the child own a lawful deed to the land? No, because he was 12? Then it is not "his" land, now is it? Did the soldier own a lawful deed to the land? Does the state he is working for own a lawful deed to the land? No? This was not a lawful action, the soldier was in the child's neighborhood, if anything the child was attempting to enact a citizens arrest with more legitimacy than the soldier's action.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:41
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My Imaginary GF posted:The soldier was definding the state institutions of his Jewish nation. The child throwing rocks was angry and unwilling to recognize their inherent priviledges, and how Jews have a right to their own state institutions. The child was coveting that of his Jewish neighbors, and the soldier was performing a mitzvot. I'm half impressed by how you managed to completely invert the realities involving the land and natural resource theft in Nabi Saleh and the nature of the weekly protests. The people of Nabi Saleh are protesting against the theft of a spring belonging to their village by the settlers in Halamish. I'm only half impressed cause I know that you just jumbled together a bunch of words and didn't actually attempt to make a farcical statement pertaining specifically to the protests at Nabi Saleh as you obviously know nothing about them. team overhead smash posted:What makes BDS a boycott but not the Israeli refusal to play Wagner? Looking at the evidence I'd probable place the grass roots popular boycott of Wagner within Israel as more effective at boycotting Wagner than the left-wing organised BDS movement is at boycotting Israeli culture in the rest of the world. In intent they're both looking to achieve the same aims, it's just structural differences between a populist cultural understanding and left-wing activism. That it is not a blanket ban of Germans, it's not even a strictly enforced ban on cultural or economic produce of individuals associated with the Nazi party. quote:Also it is not inherently bad to restrict people's ability to make money. It might be a shame, but simply pointing out that people lose opportunities to work 9which is kind of the entire point) doesn't actually show why that is wrong. This has nothing to do with the point I was making, the point I was making was strictly that the comparison between BDS sanctioned cultural boycotts and the Israeli boycott on the works of one specific german composer is laughable. quote:Lastly gently caress right off with that accusation of anti-Semitism thrown at everyone in the thread at the end there. I was accusing the thread of being lenient when it comes to antisemitism espoused by Palestinians and of applying obvious double standards, I do not consider it to be tantamount of accusations of antisemitism. I would actually have no problem whatsoever with Palestinians having a popular boycott against Israeli artists who are vocal supporters of the occupation, when the accusations are founded as in the case of Eliyassi and Benayoun, less so when it comes to someone like Matisyahu who isn't even an Israeli but it's not like I expect Palestinians to just embrace Israeli or vocally pro-Israel artists after everything that happened, otoh people itt are arguing that the boycott of a person who was both a vocal antisemite and posthumously became the poster boy for Nazism is somehow indicative of anti-german racism which is really asinine. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 15:46
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My Imaginary GF posted:Children should not throw rocks at the lawful agents of state institutions, especially when those agents are armed. Obviously the child doesn't recognise the state of Israel due to its illegal occupation of his land and was taking a deliberately provocative but righteous stance based upon the arguement put forth by UN Special Rapporteur For Palestine Prof Richard Falk that the Palestinians have a right to resistance. team overhead smash fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 15:51
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Dance The Mutation posted:Yes, half of my family comes from Tripoli, Libya. My grandparents were born there. There are 0 Jews in Libya now. But it's Israel that is the apartheid state Yo I respect the fact you have different feelings about the IDF's treatment of the captive palestinian population and all but gently caress off forever with that poo poo. People are here to actually talk about the conflict/U.S. policy toward the middle east that enables israel to have imperial aspirations/human rights abuses committed by both sides/etc etc. That's the reason this thread exists. Not for you to jump in and throw a smug platitude and a smiley then vanish. I like to think the discourse here is a few degrees removed from the comments section of ha'aretz or yediot ahronet. Miftan posted:Just chiming in quickly about the whole soldier thing. I won't be around to check responses any time soon because of work: This post got shuffled under the carpet but I definitely am interested to hear more about your experiences. Did you mainly serve in the occupied territories?
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Sep 1, 2015 16:11
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Dance The Mutation posted:I think you give yourself too much credit. Have you ever been in a combat situation or high stress situation that a soldier would be in? The issue of combatant to civilian death ratios is itself controversial. Every group, NGO, etc. releases a different number. Who do we believe? I frankly don't believe Hamas. I don't believe the UN (which has been shown to get information from Hamas and in general has shown a disproportionate amount of criticism to Israel). So who am I left to believe? The Israeli government? I want to of course believe the Israeli government but I must remain skeptical. Nonetheless, let's talk about 2008-2009 Gaza War. As I suspected, based on the vague and thirdhand sourcing with no direct quote, this is largely a mistranslation and a difference in what one considers to be a "combatant", because what Fathi Hammad actually said starts off with the 250 people (only some of whom were Hamas members) killed by Israeli attacks on police stations, as well as the 150 or so security forces killed in other attacks, and then mentions that two or three hundred militants were killed as well. A common (and often deliberate) mistake by media reports is to equate "Hamas member" with "militant", which is where numbers like the one you quoted come from, but it looks like half or more of those 700 "terror operatives" were actually just ordinary police officers, not soldiers or militant fighters. This, by the way, is a common issue one has to take into account when dealing with Gaza casualty counts - Western militaries typically define "combatant" extremely loosely, and intentionally misclassify civilians as combatants in order to excuse civilian casualties. Israel does this quite a bit, but they aren't the only ones or the first ones; as I recall, initial reports of the My Lai massacre were that several dozen civilians had unfortunately been killed in an operation that killed nearly two hundred Viet Cong, and the truth that the troops on the ground had decided to classify "all Vietnamese people" as Viet Cong didn't come out until much later. quote:I call it restraint because to me the Palestinians descended on the soldier like a bunch of zombies from a horror film. Because I am not a soldier, I can only imagine the horror I would fear and would have no idea what would happen. Palestinians have done brutal things to soldiers in the past. That's why people engaging in police actions where they are likely to face a hostile population are [supposed to be] given special training, taught special tactics, and given special equipment. Even police are known to be prone to causing bloodbaths if not given the proper training and tactics to deal with a hostile population without shooting them, and soldiers in occupied territory (where a hostile population is to be expected and has probably been dehumanized in the eyes of the soldiers) are notorious for their tendency to abuse the locals unless they are carefully trained and supervised to work as police rather than soldiers. In fact, reports after the Lebanon war showed that to be one of the major weak points of the IDF - it had gotten too used to acting as an occupation police force rather than an army, and thus its actual warfighting potential had degraded, particularly in terms of lax training and poor maintenance of heavy equipment. Dance The Mutation posted:Also: how do you define a victory or a loss in a war like the 2006 Lebanon war. In my opinion, no one won. I guess because Hezbollah survived, that is a victory? Because the IDF didn't completely obliterate Lebanon, that is a victory? Based on who accomplished their objectives, of course. Israel invaded in order to disarm, destroy or cripple Hezbollah, and failed to accomplish any of those objectives despite overwhelming military superiority, particularly complete air superiority. If the attacker fails to defeat the defender, that is typically considered a loss for the defender, even if the defender takes heavy casualties repelling the attacker. This isn't something unique to asymmetric warfare, either; for example, to the chagrin of battleship nerds everywhere, the Battle of Jutland is considered a defeat for the Germans because, even though they inflicted far more damage than they received, they did not cause the overwhelming damage needed to accomplish the battle's goal of ending British naval supremacy. Dance The Mutation posted:I sometimes think about making Aliyah. I actually have Israeli citizenship because my mother was born there. However, I unfortunately don't speak Hebrew. All of my relatives live there. My dad's family basically all perished in the Holocaust so they are my only relatives. If you do decide to make aliyah, research it very carefully and make very sure you can count on those relatives before you do so. You'll have a leg up since your mother was presumably recognized as a Jew by the Chief Rabbinate, but the Israeli economy isn't that great right now (especially for young people), foreign Jews who make aliyah to Israel face discrimination in the workforce, and if you're not a strictly observant Orthodox Jew then you could potentially run into problems with important life events like marriage. The I/P conflict and racism against Arabs is by far the international media's favorite Israel issue, but the country's got tons of other major social problems and Jewish immigrants tend to run face-first into pretty much all of them.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:16
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Ultramega posted:Yo I respect the fact you have different feelings about the IDF's treatment of the captive palestinian population and all but gently caress off forever with that poo poo. People are here to actually talk about the conflict/U.S. policy toward the middle east that enables israel to have imperial aspirations/human rights abuses committed by both sides/etc etc. That's the reason this thread exists. Not for you to jump in and throw a smug platitude and a smiley then vanish. I like to think the discourse here is a few degrees removed from the comments section of ha'aretz or yediot ahronet. I think it's more than a little bit insensitive to dismiss someone's family history to do with expulsion from their country as "this poo poo". More generally, in what way is noting that Jews have basically been ethnically cleansed from most Middle Eastern and North African countries "a platitude" in a thread that has a lot to say about ethnic cleansing by Jews? It goes into motive, especially for those Mizrahi Jews who form the voter base for Likud, a dominant right-wing party you might have heard of, and of other, more explicitly pro-expansionist parties.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:37
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Ultramega posted:Yo I respect the fact you have different feelings about the IDF's treatment of the captive palestinian population and all but gently caress off forever with that poo poo. People are here to actually talk about the conflict/U.S. policy toward the middle east that enables israel to have imperial aspirations/human rights abuses committed by both sides/etc etc. That's the reason this thread exists. Not for you to jump in and throw a smug platitude and a smiley then vanish. I like to think the discourse here is a few degrees removed from the comments section of ha'aretz or yediot ahronet. Exclusively. One year of training and 2 years of service in the west bank. I lurk this thread pretty much all the time except when migf posts. I'd happy to answer any questions you might have as long as the answers don't break any confidentiality clauses and such. I may not live in Israel at the moment but the shin bet still scare the crap out of me.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I think it's more than a little bit insensitive to dismiss someone's family history to do with expulsion from their country as "this poo poo". I was more talking about the fact he was being a facebook style JIDF type poster, not crying about how his family were expelled from arab majority states which is a hosed up thing and can't be defended. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 16:45
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I think it's more than a little bit insensitive to dismiss someone's family history to do with expulsion from their country as "this poo poo". It's a tu quoque argument that is trying to criticise people talking about Israel critically in the I/P thread. The argument has nothing to do with Israel or its practices and does nothing to defend them, instead just slinging mud and shifting the discussion over to the Arab countries on the basis of them having ethnically cleansed nations too. If they want to complain about other Arab countries, there's the general Middle East thread for that. If they want to talk about Israel and Palestine then they need to be discussed on their own merits because Arab countries also being lovely does not mean Israel isn't being lovely. Although other Arab countries do play a significant role in the I/P conflict that is worth discussing, bringing them up in that context is nothing more than a logically fallacious attempt to disregard Israel's war crimes because one set of war crimes doesn't excuse another.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:48
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Miftan posted:Exclusively. One year of training and 2 years of service in the west bank. I lurk this thread pretty much all the time except when migf posts. I'd happy to answer any questions you might have as long as the answers don't break any confidentiality clauses and such. I may not live in Israel at the moment but the shin bet still scare the crap out of me. SHABAK SAVAK hmm are they brothers???
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Sep 1, 2015 16:53
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:SHABAK SAVAK hmm are they brothers??? mind=bottled In all seriousness though what sort of training did you receive during the first year? Did it mainly deal with how to handle angry civilians? If the US military is any indicator I'm guessing you probably went to the range like...twice a year?
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Sep 1, 2015 16:58
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team overhead smash posted:It's a tu quoque argument that is trying to criticise people talking about Israel critically in the I/P thread. From the Israeli perspective, you can't disassociate Palestinian relations with Arab relations as a whole. Not only the history of Arab nations' territorial claims on contested land (Jordan with the West Bank, Egypt in Gaza, Golan with Syria), but also that its relation with these countries is inexorable tied with its relation with the Palestinians: the ostensible reason that Israel has poor relations with its neighbors is due to its relation with Palestine.
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Sep 1, 2015 16:59
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:From the Israeli perspective, you can't disassociate Palestinian relations with Arab relations as a whole. Not only the history of Arab nations' territorial claims on contested land (Jordan with the West Bank, Egypt in Gaza, Golan with Syria), but also that its relation with these countries is inexorable tied with its relation with the Palestinians: the ostensible reason that Israel has poor relations with its neighbors is due to its relation with Palestine. Yes, that's the "Arab countries do play a significant role in the I/P conflict that is worth discussing" part of it. There is a massive difference however between trying to discuss the role of Arab countries in relation to the I/P conflict and between saying that because Arab countries have committed war crimes we shouldn't be criticising Israel at all. The former is a discussion while the latter is an attempt to shut down discussion.
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Sep 1, 2015 17:20
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team overhead smash posted:Yes, that's the "Arab countries do play a significant role in the I/P conflict that is worth discussing" part of it. Singling out one country for discussion because they weren't brutal enough in the past to make the issue a moot point like the rest of the countries in the region is kind of lovely though too. I'm no fan of Israeli policies in Palestine, and think the occupation needs to end, but given the willingness to shrug off other crimes in the region, it wouldn't be too hard to come to the conclusion that we wouldn't be talking about any of this now if Israel had just done a more thorough job of ethnic cleansing decades ago.
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Sep 1, 2015 17:28
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Ultramega posted:mind=bottled 4 months of basic, 4 months of advance that took another 2-3 months because of an injury and then 2 months of specific unit training. We had to go the range every 2-3 for a couple of hours if i recall correctly. Fitness tests every 6 months or so. They're okay with the basics (in my unit at least) but a lot of stuff gets left behind. I had a grenade launcher which I fired twice in training before taking it into assignments and even that was because we had spare training shells. Whoops.
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Sep 1, 2015 17:37
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Sinteres posted:Singling out one country for discussion because they weren't brutal enough in the past to make the issue a moot point like the rest of the countries in the region is kind of lovely though too. I'm no fan of Israeli policies in Palestine, and think the occupation needs to end, but given the willingness to shrug off other crimes in the region, it wouldn't be too hard to come to the conclusion that we wouldn't be talking about any of this now if Israel had just done a more thorough job of ethnic cleansing decades ago. It's not the singling out of a country. Lots of people in this thread are ALSO critical of Arab countries. Now this was a post where Dance The Mutation was agreeing with MIGF, which should give you an idea of how balanced it is, but to be perfectly clear a "willingness to shrug off other crimes in the region" is specifically what they were advocating but the opposite way round from what you suggest. They were advocating shrugging off Israel's crimes and focusing on the crimes of Arab nations. I mean I didn't think it was really that radical a stance, maybe it is, but my position is that all war crimes are wrong and they shouldn't be ignored just because it's considered that worse or more important war crimes are going on elsewhere. This seems a pretty basic stance in terms of morality and certainly in terms of legality where it is a core principle of law.
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Sep 1, 2015 17:39
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Just to be clear, I fully support giving the Jews that were expelled from Arab countries a right of return, just as I support Israel giving a right of return to the Palestinians they expelled. The former would be unlikely to take it, partially due to antisemitism that has grown in those countries (which should absolutely be condemned) and partially because why would any Jew ever possibly want to leave what Zionists have proclaimed as Judaism's ultimate home and refuge, but the option should absolutely be offered to any who are willing to take it, and ideally those who take that right to return should be protected. It's not as immediate a concern, since the expelled Jews are living comfortably in the glorious Jewish homeland where I am sure they're being treated completely equally with no discrimination against them whatsoever, but all of the civilians expelled from their countries during ethnic purges in the late 40s and early 50s should ultimately be given the right to return to those countries. And, to be honest, the fact that so many in the thread dance around that point really puts me off. Sure, it's a transparent attempt to draw an equivalence, but I'm perfectly comfortable saying that ethnic cleansing is a grievous and inexcusable crime regardless of the reasons, methods, and level of thoroughness - and I'm a little concerned that so few people in this thread are willing to commit to a simple humane position like that. The fact that Arab countries committed violations of human rights shouldn't be used to minimize or dismiss Israel's past violations of human rights or the continuing violations going on today, but we shouldn't minimize or dismiss Arab violations of human rights either. In fact, there is one key difference that ruins the equivalence: Israel does not push for a right of return for the Mizrahi. The lack of a Mizrahi right of return is commonly cited as justification for the lack of a Palestinian right of return, but in fact Israel does not support a Mizrahi right of return either and has never asked for one. Why would it? It wanted all those Mizrahi immigrants and actively pushed to get them, and is perfectly happy to keep them as long as they don't get too uppity about all the racism they still face even today. Actually, there are plenty of other key differences between the Nakba and the exodus of Jews from Arab countries, so the equivalence is really flawed from the outset, but I'm not going to waste my time bringing those up unless we can promise to discuss things based on facts rather than dismissing them because "pro-Israel people make that argument, therefore we should ignore it because it's just trying to throw us off".
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Sep 1, 2015 17:55
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Sinteres posted:Singling out one country for discussion because they weren't brutal enough in the past to make the issue a moot point like the rest of the countries in the region is kind of lovely though too. I'm no fan of Israeli policies in Palestine, and think the occupation needs to end, but given the willingness to shrug off other crimes in the region, it wouldn't be too hard to come to the conclusion that we wouldn't be talking about any of this now if Israel had just done a more thorough job of ethnic cleansing decades ago. The simple answer is that the nature of other middle eastern states' crimes are rarely contested, so they don't end up being brought up often outside of contextually appropriate discussions. quote:"pro-Israel people make that argument, therefore we should ignore it because it's just trying to throw us off". Totally agree. Speaking as someone who first became aware of the conflict from one of these I/P threads, I believe it's very important to reiterate any refutations neccessary, so as to provide the full argument to new readers. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 18:11
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:also pictured: excellent trigger discipline This is actually pretty standard IDF trigger discipline for a crowd, since putting the finger behind the trigger prevents it from being fired accidentally during a struggle.
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Sep 1, 2015 18:20
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