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mobby_6kl posted:Wasn't the Model X supposed to be more affordable? Like not cheap-cheap, but a level lower and more mass-market than the S. No, that's the upcoming Model 3 IIRC.
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Sep 3, 2015 12:08
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mobby_6kl posted:Wasn't the Model X supposed to be more affordable? Like not cheap-cheap, but a level lower and more mass-market than the S. Still with the love of SUVs/Crossovers they'll probably sell a shitload of these judging by Porsche's sedan:suv ratio The 3 is the mass market car.
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Sep 3, 2015 13:19
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ilkhan posted:No, the X was model S territory. Which according to Musk himself , the Model 3 production is due for 2017 so long as the Gigafactory comes online as expected. Elon quoted further saying the Model 3 reveal will come in March (followed shortly afterwards by preorders) and they are still targetting $35k.
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Sep 3, 2015 15:54
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Thwomp posted:Which according to Musk himself , the Model 3 production is due for 2017 so long as the Gigafactory comes online as expected. Elon quoted further saying the Model 3 reveal will come in March (followed shortly afterwards by preorders) and they are still targetting $35k. Yeah but is that $35k as in sticker or $35k after tax rebate and "fuel savings"?
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Sep 3, 2015 16:01
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Probably the latter, but that'll be cheap enough for a lot of people. If it's 200 miles for 40-50k before incentives and isn't rear end ugly like the Bolt I'd probably buy one.
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Sep 3, 2015 16:24
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Yeah I'm aware of the Model 3 of course, but I distinctly remember Model X being talked about as supposedly being somewhat more affordable than the S back before the 3 was announced. Or maybe not. Whatever.
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Sep 3, 2015 17:07
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sanchez posted:Probably the latter, but that'll be cheap enough for a lot of people. If it's 200 miles for 40-50k before incentives and isn't rear end ugly like the Bolt I'd probably buy one. I don't know I think the Bolt is cute, then again I'm one of like three people in the world who like the look of the i3.
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Sep 3, 2015 17:13
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Part wishfully and part realistically, I'm guessing the Model 3 will have longer range and higher price by the time it's formally announced.
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Sep 3, 2015 17:36
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mobby_6kl posted:Yeah I'm aware of the Model 3 of course, but I distinctly remember Model X being talked about as supposedly being somewhat more affordable than the S back before the 3 was announced. Or maybe not. Whatever. The model X is based on the S, so it will be of similar price or more.
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Sep 5, 2015 03:08
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Ola posted:Part wishfully and part realistically, I'm guessing the Model 3 will have longer range and higher price by the time it's formally announced. I think they will make due on the $35k quote, which I would bet is after incentives. I wish they wouldn't be so opaque about it but I also understand how it's a business and technological necessity. If I can get a promotion or two in these next couple years, the 3 could be my first new car. It is more likely that I will only be able to afford used cars forever, though.
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Sep 5, 2015 05:57
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mobby_6kl posted:Yeah I'm aware of the Model 3 of course, but I distinctly remember Model X being talked about as supposedly being somewhat more affordable than the S back before the 3 was announced. Or maybe not. Whatever. The model X was always going to be more expensive than the S, because from day 1 it's been an S in crossover form. They've been talking about the cheap model 3 for a long time though, before they even mentioned the X...
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Sep 5, 2015 14:35
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Would I be stupid not get a Fusion Energi lease for $0 down $209 a month? It just seems like a crazy deal for a $36,000 car. I test drove it and it wasn't that slow, had cooled seats, and what seemed like every option possible. However I don't really have a place to charge it, the trunk was actually useless from it being mostly made of batteries, and I would really miss my Fiesta ST, which my lease is up now for. The same dealer wanted $350/month for another fiesta st, (a $25k car)lease, or $500/mo for a focus st (30k). Just seemed like a ton of car for the money, and the features it had were super cool.
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Sep 8, 2015 05:12
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Focus ST for 30k? Hahaha
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Sep 8, 2015 05:48
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Voltage posted:Would I be stupid not get a Fusion Energi lease for $0 down $209 a month? It just seems like a crazy deal for a $36,000 car. I test drove it and it wasn't that slow, had cooled seats, and what seemed like every option possible. However I don't really have a place to charge it, the trunk was actually useless from it being mostly made of batteries, and I would really miss my Fiesta ST, which my lease is up now for. The same dealer wanted $350/month for another fiesta st, (a $25k car)lease, or $500/mo for a focus st (30k). Neither of the gas powered cars you are mentioning are going to cost that amount.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:25
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Voltage posted:I don't really have a place to charge it Please elaborate. Do you have anywhere to park it near a regular 110 outlet, at least? Are there any commercial chargers in your area? Plugshare is a good place to see what's available.
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Sep 8, 2015 23:25
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I live in an apartment building, and my parking garage has a few 110v's, but not near my spot - I bet I could ask to be moved to a spot near an outlet, since someone with an i8 got a corner spot near an outlet. There was also a mention of possible dedicated electric charges in "the future" but who knows. There are a few charging spots near me at dealerships, but I wonder if they let anyone charge - they are listed in the plugshare app however. So anyways, the $209/month deal was bullshit, and only applied to one car - the rest on the lot they wanted $400/month plus 3k down. I called a few other dealers and one would do a fully loaded titanium energi for $298/mo zero down payment, but $2k total taxes/fees out the door. Still seems like a pretty solid deal for a $42,000 car and I bet I could talk them down even more in person.
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Sep 9, 2015 04:02
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I drove a Leaf this weekend and it was pretty awesome. It would never work for me, but it would be an excellent second car for a married couple. With an 80 mile range it is just too limiting to be your only car. I see why they sell so well though. It was fun to drive. At used for 9,000 in great condition if I was married I'd buy it as our second car in a heartbeat (assuming off lease ones are still safe to buy and last a while, which I do not know). I'm still waiting for the new Volts to come out though so I can either get an old one of cheap or possibly buy new. I saw a rumor they may be delayed until early 2017 but I hope it was false. It should be out in 4 weeks but the dealers here claim to know nothing. Maybe they are afraid they are going to each be stuck with 10 2014/2015 Volts so they are no selling the new one.
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Sep 9, 2015 12:14
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Ribsauce posted:With an 80 mile range it is just too limiting to be your only car. Speak for yourself. We've had a Leaf as our only car for just over a year, put 12,000 miles on it, and never had a range problem.
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Sep 9, 2015 15:45
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A Leaf is laughably short on range for me, too.
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Sep 9, 2015 15:58
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80 miles would be fine for me, until I wanted to go anywhere that isn't my daily drive. Tesla is stretching its legs to round trip to the next major attraction city in either direction (reno/SF, 'bout a 100mi each).
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Sep 9, 2015 16:03
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Range-wise I think the most annoying thing about having a Leaf right now is that it's really hard to tell how reliable a given charging station is and if I go somewhere where I have to charge to get back, I have to look for somewhere with multiple charging options (and make sure some of them are commercial network chargers that are less likely to have dumb rules) just in case, as I've shown up to find chargers broken or occupied or having inane 1h limits when I need to charge for 4 or 6. This can doubly be a huge pain if you're on a schedule, but thankfully I've known better than to get myself in that situation. It's getting there but extending Leaf range to the edge of its range one way instead of only half so you can get back without charging isn't terribly viable until there's a charging station within walking distance-ish of pretty much everywhere. They also need to be an actual thing in residential areas, though it's going to take laws and subsidies to get cheap-rear end apartment complexes and most other rental properties (who are also cheap) to have any charging available, never mind reliably available. I do hope as the electric adoption rate picks up, gas stations start retooling to have some charging spots, and have a nice lounge area like Starbucks or something, as that's about the only way I can see that entire business not getting completely cratered.
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Sep 9, 2015 16:36
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Boten Anna posted:I do hope as the electric adoption rate picks up, gas stations start retooling to have some charging spots, and have a nice lounge area like Starbucks or something, as that's about the only way I can see that entire business not getting completely cratered. I think it will be a very long time (many decades) before electric adoption rates get anywhere near levels to threaten gas stations. Gas stations don't make very much, if any, money off of gasoline anyway.
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Sep 9, 2015 16:47
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All the more reason for gas stations to set up for slow-charge. Get people to spend 4 hours at the gas station, they'll buy all your refreshments and pay several visits to the coin-op bathroom.
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Sep 9, 2015 17:44
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Everybody posted:LOL no Okay, I guess I'm weird. We used to have two gas-powered cars. We traded them both in and got the Leaf instead. We live in a rental condo with an attached garage and trickle charge overnight off of a 120V/15A circuit. I used to make more "driving everywhere all at once" type trips, but I found that my driving style has adjusted to fit the car. Now, I'll look at the errands I have to run in a given week and parcel them out so I won't run out of battery. I haven't really had a problem yet. If we had 240V in the garage, I would be able to do even less planning. The nearest "destination city" for us is LA, but we've always rented a car to go out of town, even before we had the Leaf. Our last two cars were solid but getting old and we didn't want to risk them crapping out while we were that far from home.
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Sep 9, 2015 18:37
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King Hotpants posted:Okay, I guess I'm weird. If you live close enough to get by with anything, I think a Leaf is great. I'd probably own one in that situation. But I live 30-something miles from work, and 30-something miles from civilization in the opposite direction. I also make a 500-mile drive every few weeks. About the only thing less than 20 miles from my house is a Walmart and Lowes. Even before I moved out here, I was about 39 miles from work and dealing with a ton of traffic. I've always had my eye on the Volt...if gas is cheap next summer (yeah, I know  ) I might start shopping seriously.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:45
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Michael Scott posted:I think it will be a very long time (many decades) before electric adoption rates get anywhere near levels to threaten gas stations. Gas stations don't make very much, if any, money off of gasoline anyway. Exactly, which is why: pun pundit posted:All the more reason for gas stations to set up for slow-charge. Get people to spend 4 hours at the gas station, they'll buy all your refreshments and pay several visits to the coin-op bathroom. The capital investment required to install some metered L2 chargers is pretty low, much lower than a gas pump even, and the profit margins much higher. Busy/large stations could have L3 chargers which are much more expensive but probably even more likely to have people stick around buying things waiting for 30 minutes as opposed to people with 2+ hours to wait probably wandering off. Have a coffee bar and a nice lounge area, maybe even rent out little DVD players or something for people really stuck to watch movies, have lots of places to charge phones/laptops and (probably paid) wifi. Of course the usual bevy of atrocious junk food and experimental energy drinks would be available as well, but retooling minimarts to go from "buy things get out gently caress you" to a comfortable waypoint would probably be a net good.
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Sep 9, 2015 19:48
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Boten Anna posted:Of course the usual bevy of atrocious junk food and experimental energy drinks would be available as well, but retooling minimarts to go from "buy things get out gently caress you" to a comfortable waypoint would probably be a net good. Yeah I'll welcome this with open arms. Chill out, check email and FB for 20 min (instead of trying to text and poo poo while on the road), use the bathroom, maybe get a coffee and then head back out. Sounds relaxing. You could even catch a catnap if you wanted.
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Sep 9, 2015 20:06
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That still sounds hellish compared to "pump gas for 5-10 mins" - the tech needs to get to that level of convenience for long trips to be viable.
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Sep 9, 2015 20:42
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:That still sounds hellish compared to "pump gas for 5-10 mins" - the tech needs to get to that level of convenience for long trips to be viable. I don't know about needs to. 400+ mile range that can be mostly recharged in 30 minutes, a thing we're an rear end breath from making real, is just fine for most road trips. Drive 400 miles and then stop to eat for 30-60 minutes while the car charges then go another 400 miles. At cruising speed, the fancier teslas can already go from LA to Vegas without charging, at least on paper. The 2017 model year will probably see affordable 200+ mile range cars, and batteries are getting better and cheaper. We don't HAVE to have things work EXACTLY like gas. There's nothing that says we can only accept a thing where you stand by and wait for the vehicle to charge. Most EV owners have some sort of ability to charge at home, such access is getting more ubiquitous and subsidized, and with 200+ mile ranges that's all we'll need most of the time. If you ever drive so much that an overnight charge won't cut it, you're driving enough that you can stop for less than an hour to eat and stretch out. Boten Anna fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 20:53
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Boten Anna posted:I don't know about needs to. 400+ mile range that can be mostly recharged in 30 minutes, a thing we're an rear end breath from making real, is just fine for most road trips. Drive 400 miles and then stop to eat for 30-60 minutes while the car charges then go another 400 miles. Now pretend you're trying to entice the demographic that includes men in their 40s with 3-5 kids and hates everything about their lives. "Yes, I'd like to sit in a booth for half an hour twice a day with these screaming nitwits and my 300 lb wife who spends my paycheck on perfume that smells like roadkill's rear end and McDonalds instead of the peace and quiet of standing at the gas pump fighting the urge to just spark a lighter and call it good."
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Sep 9, 2015 20:57
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Godholio posted:Now pretend you're trying to entice the demographic that includes men in their 40s with 3-5 kids and hates everything about their lives. "Yes, I'd like to sit in a booth for half an hour twice a day with these screaming nitwits and my 300 lb wife who spends my paycheck on perfume that smells like roadkill's rear end and McDonalds instead of the peace and quiet of standing at the gas pump fighting the urge to just spark a lighter and call it good." I think this person has bigger problems than how long it takes to refuel their car, and certainly is not who we should be basing infrastructure decisions on. Boten Anna fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 20:59
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Hydrogen is the solution. Batteries are dumb.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:10
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Elephanthead posted:Hydrogen is the solution. Batteries are dumb. Well if you say so
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Sep 9, 2015 21:13
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The Leaf's range can't be that bad, there's an UberX driver here in DC that uses one as his vehicle.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:32
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Boten Anna posted:I don't know about needs to. 400+ mile range that can be mostly recharged in 30 minutes, a thing we're an rear end breath from making real, is just fine for most road trips. Drive 400 miles and then stop to eat for 30-60 minutes while the car charges then go another 400 miles. I'm just saying it's not a compelling competition with a gas vehicle when there's an amount of inconvenience and cap on capability. This is America - people want to be Free To Do What They Want, Like Drive To Florida Non-Stop even if they are never going to do it. It's an actual hurdle for EVs and EV fans don't really like to acknowledge it.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:44
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Elephanthead posted:Hydrogen is the solution. Batteries are dumb. Pretty sure it's Helium that's recommended for such cases.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:46
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm just saying it's not a compelling competition with a gas vehicle when there's an amount of inconvenience and cap on capability. This is America - people want to be Free To Do What They Want, Like Drive To Florida Non-Stop even if they are never going to do it. It's an actual hurdle for EVs and EV fans don't really like to acknowledge it. I mean yeah, until gas hits $5/gal again. Also I forgot to mention that a bunch of these things are getting increasingly complex automation and self driving abilities, and having the drat things take off to go charge themselves while you do whatever is not far from reality, either. Trying to emulate ICE infrastructure is a way to end up with lovely half solutions and wind up in stupid loving boondoggles like battery swap stations. Some paradigms will have to shift. Some jerkwad selfish assholes will be soooooo~ inconvenienced by plugging in a thing that they'd rather pay $10/gal for a car that drives like poo poo (read: all ICE cars.) Those are not the people the future is for. EVs aren't for everyone right now, but they work for more people every year, and that everyone won't be immediately onboard with things like charging lounges doesn't mean enough people won't be to make it worth it.
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Sep 9, 2015 21:58
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I agree, the whole thing is going to be rendered entirely moot by driverless, at least in urban areas. It's funny that you complain about emulating gas infrastructure when the business model you proposed was a really inconvenient gas station. edit: I didn't mean to sound like a dick there. I think that the thing that will change before EV infrastructure is sufficiently deployed is the car ownership model in urban areas, and in rural areas EVs don't make a tremendous amount of sense. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 22:13
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I agree, the whole thing is going to be rendered entirely moot by driverless, at least in urban areas. A gas station crossed with a bus station. My two favorite places to spend hours of time in.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:14
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Mange Mite posted:A gas station crossed with a bus station. My two favorite places to spend hours of time in. Picture a world where: You could have the shittiness of a gas station COMBINED WITH the interminable wait times of your local Amtrak station!
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Sep 9, 2015 22:17
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