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Fister Roboto posted:Do you seriously not see the problem with this? Like, do you really think it's OK for some groups to clear slower than others because one of their tanks chose the wrong class?
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Sep 3, 2015 22:38
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People are just not playing PLD good enough yet.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:39
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Fister Roboto posted:The only people I've had tell me that paladins are fine either don't main paladin, or bought the eso chest first. Time travel back to 2.0.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:39
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Holyshoot posted:I can't have my tank stance off at the start on an exdr with good dps as a drk unless I just want to be doing 123 for the first 30 seconds and using all my mana up on dark arts power slashes. I'll tank a exdr tonight on my pld and i bet I can be in tank stance for the first 30 seconds and switch to sword oath and be able to do my dps rotation. Unless you have DRGs burning cooldowns you probably can, actually (though if you're doing big pulls for AOE it's probably not a good idea). If you end up with 2 MNKs you have to be legitimately bad at tanking to lose threat on a pull unless one of them just did back to back crits on chakra and elixir in which case it's a tossup until you finish your enmity combo. Holyshoot posted:And a warrior will do more then a drk. The gap isn't that crazy that stuff isn't doable minus the hardest of hard while being super under geared. You want paladin to take hits like a champ and dish our amazing dps but you can't have it both ways. Warriors can, in fact, have it both ways.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:41
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I think you guys are just over blowing this whole PLD issue, everything is fine.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:44
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Holyshoot posted:Time travel back to 2.0. In 2.0 warriors were hot garbage until they fixed them. That's not a praise for paladins, because they were the only other option.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:45
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Fister Roboto posted:In 2.0 warriors were hot garbage until they fixed them. That's not a praise for paladins, because they were the only other option. Bosses died.  . If you're not having fun on paladin either play a different job or deal with it until they are buffed.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:51
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Vermain posted:I struggle to understand how anyone could actually enjoy the class in its current state of numbing repetition and subpar performance. If 3.0 Paladin is this then what was 2.0 Paladin?
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Sep 3, 2015 23:02
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war and pld were on more equivalent footing back when: a) raid content allowed for single tank strats that put the focus on the tank doing mitigation, not damage b) pld had higher OT DPS due to Sword Oath being a dedicated 'more auto-attack damage' stance (this MIGHT still be the case if you're like, perfect on optimizing your DOTs) c) damage was a lot more evenly distributed across physical and magical meaning their cooldowns actually did poo poo Also a LOT of people still had a bad taste in their mouth over Warrior due to how the class came out the gate in 2.0
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Sep 3, 2015 23:09
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I feel the best direction for paladins to go in is to have their mitigation buffed to the point where they make up the DPS difference between them and the other tanks through the healers being able to spend more time DPSing. I think this would be the best way to keep the tanks feeling different in how the play and approach tanking. Also something for their TP woes and some degree of AoE damage (although not equal to or better than DRK, that's one of their niches). Dunno how viable that would be though, difficult balancing act to strike.
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Sep 3, 2015 23:10
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the reason PLD is really poo poo is that all the stuff introduced to them in 3.0 was generally ignorable junk outside of Divine Veil, while WAR just got king of the hill contribution skills in every single ability added and DRK is also very good at what they do
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Sep 3, 2015 23:17
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Rei_ posted:war and pld were on more equivalent footing back when: All of this pretty much. Royal Authority sucks. Shelltron could be pretty good, except nothing in Alexander allows the paladin to really take advantage of it. Divine Veil is decent, but the cooldown is too long. Clemency needs more for it than just an okay heal that runs your paladin completely out of MP. Goring Blade is okay though?
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Sep 3, 2015 23:43
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Fister Roboto posted:The only people I've had tell me that paladins are fine either don't main paladin, or bought the eso chest first. I'd seriously consider switching back to Paladin if they made this the case Willias posted:All of this pretty much. The problem I had with Shelltron when I was still on PLD is that the animation windup before you get the buff is excessive and it has the problem of old disable in that an awkwardly spaced autoattack from an enemy can just eat it instantly before whatever you REALLY wanted to block. It's best considered a low cooldown button you press to shield yourself for like 500 and gain some mana.
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Sep 3, 2015 23:50
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Since we're on the topic, I have a PLD at level 51 right now. If I want to tank in end-game content should I just finish leveling to 60 and then level DRK or WAR instead?
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Sep 4, 2015 00:00
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NewAge posted:Since we're on the topic, I have a PLD at level 51 right now. If I want to tank in end-game content should I just finish leveling to 60 and then level DRK or WAR instead? PLD is okay for everything except A3S and A4S. Like someone mentioned threat issues and 30 minute EXDRs earlier and I think that's a bit hyperbolic because that's not what I'm running into (unless I start a fight with Sword Oath and don't do Rage of Halone combo ASAP). I'd imagine with PLDs in their current state, we're going to get buffed, but we'll see. brennon posted:The problem I had with Shelltron when I was still on PLD is that the animation windup before you get the buff is excessive and it has the problem of old disable in that an awkwardly spaced autoattack from an enemy can just eat it instantly before whatever you REALLY wanted to block. It's best considered a low cooldown button you press to shield yourself for like 500 and gain some mana. The current new set of Paladin skills would be amazing if this were still Final Coil. Like, Shelltron would trivialize poo poo like Flatten and Ravensbeak. Obviously they should make it so that Shelltron blocks the next hit the paladin takes, no matter whether it's physical or magic. Willias fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 00:12
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I'm mad because Sheltron looks rad as gently caress and I want to do it more often while fighting cool bosses and getting rad loot and not just running fractal continuum forever? Which is a lie, because it's Neverreap, it's always Neverreap
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Sep 4, 2015 00:12
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I would love for PLD to have a buff. Damage/enmity number tweaks certainly. CD adjustments on the abilities. Tweaks to how Sword/Shield Oath work. The problem with PLD AoE dps is less a PLD problem and more a Heavensward Encounter problem. Flash not doing damage is fine when there is a neat trick to how that lack of damage makes PLD better in some situations, namely tanking through CC. However dungeon mobs in Heavensward are immune to sleep and a bunch of them are immune to bind as well. On one hand this makes everything simple, you just have to kill things, it ensures you meet DPS minimums for bosses and that your tanks can take said bosses damage. On the other hand the fights are pretty static, the only thing you can do to change them is by pulling more groups. If said design is going to be the standard going forward then yeah, I think PLD needs more AoE damage either through a buff to Scorn or a tweak to Flash (Pre-50 dungeons have tons of CC opportunity so a tweak to a talent would be best.) If they're going to open up a bit more and allow Sleep/Bind opportunities in future dungeons though then I'd just want a buff to Scorn. One reason I like to say that PLD is pretty fine and could just use numbers tweaks is that I just want buffs for PLD. I don't want PLD to be pulled closer to DRK/WAR. For example: I would like shorter cooldowns on a lot of PLD's neat useful-in-particular-circumstances abilities. However any significant CD reduction for them would be a pretty big buff to their power and would warrant adjustments to them. My fever nightmare example for such would be Inner Will. A big CD reduction to it could also come with an additional malus to it in the form of 'now requires a target' or 'roots you in place for the duration.' I don't want that. The other is that I feel WAR is too good at doing what they do. Buffs are cool but you have to be careful so as not to get into a 'buff cold war' between classes and encounters (fortunately the Devs seem to be good with this.) DRK is fine since they have their Darkside gimmick to deal with and are built around that.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:15
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Willias posted:PLD is okay for everything except A3S and A4S. Like someone mentioned threat issues and 30 minute EXDRs earlier and I think that's a bit hyperbolic because that's not what I'm running into (unless I start a fight with Sword Oath and don't do Rage of Halone combo ASAP). The 30 min EXDR isn't hyperbole in the slightest - thanks to the way Paladin is, if you're the highest DPS on bosses, the rest of the run is just going to be miserably slow no matter what you do. Paladin's lack of AoE damage stands out even worse when you're 50% of your group's damage, rather than 20%. Also, the current Sheltron would still not be very good against either of those abilities, because they have autoattack lead-ins. Sheltron needs to be more like Disable or Inner Beast. e: delete bulwark from the game for being terrible, then make sheltron be a physical inner beast that works off BV. Niton fucked around with this message at 00:24 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 00:17
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Oof. Yeah, I regularly play with a pretty decent DPS so thankfully I've never run into a situation where I'm the bulk of the group's damage. Yeah, that'd be rough.Niton posted:Also, the current Sheltron would still not be very good against either of those abilities, because they have autoattack lead-ins. Sheltron needs to be more like Disable or Inner Beast. I'm pretty sure Flatten and Ravensbeak did not have auto attack lead ins. Pretty sure. And Bulwark has it's place, it just needs a block rate boost. Back in T9 and T13 when I could count on it providing a large number of blocks, it was great. Right now though? Not so much. It's kind of odd that Warriors received a similar ability that is just straight up better. Willias fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 00:19
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 This Paladin didn't lose threat in Fractal. PLD is fine, imo.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:29
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As someone whom farms their eso by pld each week, and is not spending said eso on that job, if I had not preemptively bought the eso sword as a preventative measure I probably wouldn't be able to df anymore. It would probably be easier if my eso was going into pld but I can feel where the edge is with mostly 180 law versus people with partial eso and end game greens. It's not bad and I'm not the best example but the bar for pld is probably a little too low threat wise in 4 man content. Makes me wonder if a little nift mechanic like giving them a secondary shield bop which was low damage but high threat automatically to an adjacent target when using tp expending abilities wouldn't give the job some flavor and threat for pack content while not really changing other balance factors.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:29
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I was too DPS as PLD frequently in expert runs and still never had them take forever. Yes PLD has lower aoe, but you can still do good damage spreading dots around or just pulling smaller packs. I do run about 60-80 DPS lower than my war on single target, though so I never run paladin.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:31
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FaintlyQuaint posted:
funny enough, for shits and giggles i spammed nothing but rage of halone when my static was farming odin for glamour drops, and held threat with no issue
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Sep 4, 2015 00:32
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Willias posted:And Bulwark has it's place, it just needs a block rate boost. It needs way more than that. It's a 180s (!) CD ability that only guards against one specific type of damage. All of the other magic/physical-specific defensive CDs out there are on vastly shorter cooldowns.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:36
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Mr. Nice! posted:I was too DPS as PLD frequently in expert runs and still never had them take forever. Yes PLD has lower aoe, but you can still do good damage spreading dots around or just pulling smaller packs. I do run about 60-80 DPS lower than my war on single target, though so I never run paladin. I just turn on Sword Oath and pull single packs, nowadays, but that's still not a great solution. Larger pulls drag on super long if you're the only one breaking 500 dps (and the healer is doing 0), and Sword Oath doesn't come close to being an answer to that.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:36
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Niton posted:The 30 min EXDR isn't hyperbole in the slightest - thanks to the way Paladin is, if you're the highest DPS on bosses, the rest of the run is just going to be miserably slow no matter what you do. Paladin's lack of AoE damage stands out even worse when you're 50% of your group's damage, rather than 20%. If a Paladin would be the highest DPS on the boss with that, then the run's going to be miserably slow period. Being a Warrior won't suddenly make everything easy and breezy.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:46
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Fister Roboto posted:e: Warriors and black mages had issues in 2.0 and they buffed them. Dragoons and summoners had issues in 2.4 and they buffed them. Astros and monks had issues in 3.0 and they buffed them. Paladins have issues now, but why are there so many people saying "nah, paladins are totally fine, just git gud gear"? I think 2.0 WAR might have been the only one without white knights coming out of the woodwork to insist everything is fine and you just need to quit whining. Even for AST you had people saying, "calm down, if there's a problem SE will fix it." Then there were people who claimed BLM "were already best single target" or something similarly stupid, and the same poo poo is going on about MNK now. Basically, all change is bad and all criticism is entitled whining. Welcome to the MMO HMO.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:49
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kafziel posted:If a Paladin would be the highest DPS on the boss with that, then the run's going to be miserably slow period. Being a Warrior won't suddenly make everything easy and breezy. Paladin is completely incapable of turning a non-DPS healer into extra damage for itself, though. It can't simultaneously pull more mobs and also do more damage. seorin posted:I think 2.0 WAR might have been the only one without white knights coming out of the woodwork to insist everything is fine and you just need to quit whining. Even for AST you had people saying, "calm down, if there's a problem SE will fix it." Then there were people who claimed BLM "were already best single target" or something similarly stupid, and the same poo poo is going on about MNK now. Basically, all change is bad and all criticism is entitled whining. Welcome to the MMO HMO. For anyone who doesn't remember 2.0 Warrior, or wasn't playing back then: Defiance didn't grant max HP - Wrath stacks did. Which you had to lose to use Inner Beast.. which didn't reduce damage taken. And Vengeance was just a damage reflect. And you couldn't even Holmgang bosses. It was pretty bad.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:55
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Niton posted:It was pretty bad. It's one saving grace was that it had bonkers self heals. Made non-raid stuff pretty easy.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:57
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Nah Defiance did grant the max HP, it's just that the bonus healing in Defiance was based on your Wrath stacks. Holmgang also didn't have the "You can't die while this is up" part of it, it was just a bind.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:57
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Niton posted:For anyone who doesn't remember 2.0 Warrior, or wasn't playing back then: The increased healing was tied to wrath stacks and topped out at definitely less. And Steel Cyclone didn't have enmity boost on it.
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Sep 4, 2015 00:58
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I am absolutely certain that people who say that Paladins are fine have not figured out how to do Royal Pentacle and the BS that involves. I actually can't think of a safe paladin CD rotation for that fight. That's ignoring how much sword oathing you need to do to even approach the dps a dark knight can do while keeping grit up when tanking, and this is DPS you need to do for correct phasing. Just gently caress it, treat it as a blessing in disguise. Dark knight is way more fun to play. I spent Esoterics on the Paladin chest and head and I still switched.
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Sep 4, 2015 01:01
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Fishious posted:I am absolutely certain that people who say that Paladins are fine have not figured out how to do Royal Pentacle and the BS that involves. I actually can't think of a safe paladin CD rotation for that fight. That's ignoring how much sword oathing you need to do to even approach the dps a dark knight can do while keeping grit up when tanking, and this is DPS you need to do for correct phasing. A4S is actually a valid complaint for PLD. The amount of magic bullshit you have to deal with there really, really shines on DRK's mitigation kit. A1S through A3S PLD is amazingly better, though.
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Sep 4, 2015 01:04
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Fishious posted:I am absolutely certain that people who say that Paladins are fine have not figured out how to do Royal Pentacle and the BS that involves. I actually can't think of a safe paladin CD rotation for that fight. That's ignoring how much sword oathing you need to do to even approach the dps a dark knight can do while keeping grit up when tanking, and this is DPS you need to do for correct phasing. Yeah that eso I mentioned farming is drk weapon and body  Also other than this tier of eso for probably the rest of expansion the gear will be all tank classes so I'll just play both as I feel like. Gee the world without alts is nice praise Yoship. RuanGacho fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 01:12
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PLD is most certainly a bit weak right now, but I'm fairly certain we'll get a buff (hopefully sooner rather then later) so I'm not terribly worried, it just sucks to be in a bad spot RIGHT NOW, but they've been good about buffing classes like this in the past(see AST as a recent example).
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Sep 4, 2015 01:37
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I don't see how paladin is better than dark knight on any of the other 3 turns but it's a difference that shouldn't cripple a clear. Paladin are easier on the group in A2 but dark knights are absolutely wiping the floor on DPS due to the fact that paladin have no significant aoe dps. They can present more mitigation for A3 but all this adds up to is more sword oath uptime that still doesn't beat dark knight DPS. I don't see how Paladin are better in any way on A1, dark knights can stack so many cooldowns for plasma they don't even need to go back into grit and are once against better DPS. DPS is the focus because mitigation is just a check, and the bar is usually reachable by anyone. They need to rethink how they design raids or just homogenize the DPS of all 3 tank jobs. The funny thing is that they said paladin does less DPS because it is more tanky and, ignoring how this is a bad trade-off since raids encourage you to strip down as much as possible for DPS, this is not true at all. paladin just have more options for physical damage while dark knight has more options for magic. And almost like they didn't learn at all from FCoB they shifted the weight of tank side damage so far towards magic that paladin are the most squishy of the 3 on A4.
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Sep 4, 2015 01:47
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Captain Oblivious posted:He's quoting the OF. Fine, but just because you asked nicely. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/259233-Religion-is-bad-M-kay?p=3296131&viewfull=1#post3296131
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Sep 4, 2015 02:16
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Willias posted:I'm pretty sure Flatten and Ravensbeak did not have auto attack lead ins. Pretty sure. I can't remember about Flatten, but Ravensbeak had a cast bar so Nael was not auto-attacking during that time. I think Flatten was the same.
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Sep 4, 2015 02:20
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And so the problem with non-Western religions is that they can get away with being wishy-washy since they are filled with magical thought than rational philosophy. It had been the last stages of Aristotelian/Platonic philosophy that had arrived to the conclusion reiterated by Western religions: 1.What ever begins to exist has a cause. 2.The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause. If you believe the Universe existed forever, then you must not know how the Law of Thermodynamics works- namely that processes in a closed system reaches for equilibrium; if infinite, the universe would've ran out of energy long ago. Since the universe can't cause itself, then the cause must be beyond the Universe, beyond space, time, immaterial, eternal, and powerful. Much better than an egg or whatever it is they believe in eastern religions.
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Sep 4, 2015 02:22
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HiKaizer posted:I can't remember about Flatten, but Ravensbeak had a cast bar so Nael was not auto-attacking during that time. I think Flatten was the same. There are a lot of casted attacks/abilities where the boss will still autoattack while it's casting them.
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Sep 4, 2015 02:23
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