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I think most people see him as a 'good, not great' kind of guy that gets overrated because other wrestlers point to him as a guy that has great psychology, but ask people to point to his truly great matches and you get silence. Kinda like a better Raven I guess.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:19
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Marquis de Pyro posted:Jake sure did, but I didn't have to watch those every week on Monday nights, so I've only had to watch his good matches. I'm sure if I only watched 5% of Randy Orton's matches I'd think he was good as well. Alas, that lucky fate has eluded me. Don't watch Raw, hth
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Sep 12, 2015 22:20
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Jake missed his calling as a tag wrestler. I thought his tag matches from the DVDVR Mid-South set, with Nord the Barbarian of all people, were way better than any of his singles matches.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:25
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Spermgod posted:I think most people see him as a 'good, not great' kind of guy that gets overrated because other wrestlers point to him as a guy that has great psychology, but ask people to point to his truly great matches and you get silence. Kinda like a better Raven I guess. I can point to at least one great Raven match though
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Sep 12, 2015 23:23
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SAVE_US.CHR
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ChampRamp posted:I can point to at least one great Raven match though It shouldn't count when DDP carries him and the child murderer.
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Sep 12, 2015 23:35
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That's totally unfair. He murdered a grownup as well.
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Sep 12, 2015 23:53
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Orton can be a next level performer at times. The problem is that when he's bored or disengaged with something it comes across all too easily. His last two matches with Shamus made this abundantly clear.
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Sep 13, 2015 00:15
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Jake had a really famous match with Steamboat I think.
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Sep 13, 2015 00:21
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MassRafTer posted:It shouldn't count when DDP carries him and the child murderer. Raven and Stevie vs. the Pitbulls was pretty great, and he had a remarkably good match in TNA vs 'Wildcat" Chris Harris. It's beside the point anyway, Raven and Jake were character wrestlers more than anything else. What they did was less about moves and more about doing what worked for their character. Orton on the other hand, well occasionally he acts like a snake. As a heel, he was a second rate version of short hair and suits Chris Jericho, and as a face, he lives by his finisher. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 00:24
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That Cena /Orton TLC match was pretty good. It's just that no one gave a gently caress
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Sep 13, 2015 00:45
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I wouldn't even say Orton is bad in the ring, he has a pretty cool CAW moveset, filled with other peoples finishes. The problem is none of them matter. Only the RKO matters. He is the premier example of a finish so good that nothing else he does matters. See Petey Williams for another example. This also wouldn't be an issue if he had a good or interesting character, it never really mattered that post neck injury Austin, or early Undertaker, or Jake Roberts never had much of a move-set, a killer finish is great but it isn't enough. remusclaw fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 00:51
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Randy is very good at the WWE style. WWE style matches are boring without a hot feud or stakes. He's also had an obscene number of televised matches so he drifts into Kane/Big Show territory.
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Sep 13, 2015 01:23
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MassRafTer posted:It shouldn't count when DDP carries him and the child murderer. Raven/Saturn was the one saving grace of an otherwise all-time bad PPV 
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Sep 13, 2015 02:17
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Raven is cool as hell.
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Sep 13, 2015 03:34
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Both Raven and Jake have said that part of the reason why they worked the way they did was because back in the day, a good workrate guy often got stuck putting more limited workers over and making them look good, and neither of them wanted to be trapped in that spot. Anyway, this is all straying from my original thought, which was wondering how audiences would take to today's generally more athletic workers using Jake's ideas about ring psychology. Part of Jake's limitations came from him not being a natural athlete by any stretch of the imagination (which goes for Raven, too).
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Sep 13, 2015 06:03
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Yeah, sure thing Raven and Jake. You tried to be limited on purpose. Absolutely.
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Sep 13, 2015 07:25
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Fsmhunk posted:Yeah, sure thing Raven and Jake. You tried to be limited on purpose. Absolutely. I mean, Raven had WCW crowds mega hot in 97 just by sitting in the front row and occasionally hitting someone with a DDT.
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Sep 13, 2015 07:29
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Fsmhunk posted:Yeah, sure thing Raven and Jake. You tried to be limited on purpose. Absolutely. Drugs and laziness were also big factors in how they worked too, but there is a certain logic to developing a gimmicky brawling style and focusing more on character stuff so you don't get stuck putting other guys over forever. Why be George South when you could be Dusty?
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Sep 13, 2015 07:45
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Orton has the best powerslam in the history of wrestling. I could watch him do that move all day,
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Sep 13, 2015 08:51
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He's very crisp when he's motivated, it's just that he's rarely allowed to play a character that that crispness works with.
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Sep 13, 2015 08:56
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The orton daniel bryan matches from a few years ago were amazing and a good reason to watch raw.
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Sep 13, 2015 10:56
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Fsmhunk posted:Yeah, sure thing Raven and Jake. You tried to be limited on purpose. Absolutely. In Jake's case he's from a different era so you can't judge him that way. Old school wrestling would be considered the shits in today's climate.
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Sep 13, 2015 11:30
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WWF of that era in particular. They did have some absolutely great angles in those years, though.
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Sep 13, 2015 11:32
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There's plenty of old school guys that worked a pared-down, 'limited' brawling style that produced far better results than Raven and Jake. Lawler and Terry Funk being the two most prominent examples. Good wrestling is good wrestling no matter the era. Spermgod fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 12:12
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Alain Post posted:WWF of that era in particular. They did have some absolutely great angles in those years, though. This is why Jake is remembered so well, his angles were always some of the best TV, the promos building up a match were great, and if he won you got to see the finish that left people dead (at the time). As long as the meat of the match looked real for that time it didn't matter what it was because the rest of the package was there and was great.
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Sep 13, 2015 12:27
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RBX posted:Old school wrestling would be considered the shits in today's climate. This is bullshit unless you're one of the people who counts how many moves are done in each match or judge it like it's a gymnastics competition and not a wrestling match. There are a ton of great matches on NWAClassics.com that still hold up today.
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Sep 13, 2015 16:55
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Jake Roberts and Raven rule what are you even talking about.
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Sep 13, 2015 17:20
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I am a smark. The greatest wrestlers in the world are the Young Bucks. Jake Roberts is boring because he can't even do a flip.
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Sep 13, 2015 17:22
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Raven is ok
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Sep 13, 2015 17:24
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goc posted:This is bullshit unless you're one of the people who counts how many moves are done in each match or judge it like it's a gymnastics competition and not a wrestling match. There are a ton of great matches on NWAClassics.com that still hold up today. That exactly what I meant. A large number today wouldn't like it.
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Sep 13, 2015 18:03
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I remember when Raven first came to WWF, a bunch of Raven fans were talking about how awesome the Evenflow DDT was (or whatever it was called pre-Raven Effect), and they got really loving mad when people said it just looked like a normal DDT except people didn't kick out of it.
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Sep 13, 2015 18:06
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Luigi Thirty posted:I am a smark. The greatest wrestlers in the world are the Young Bucks. Jake Roberts is boring because he can't even do a flip. If Jake Roberts did a 450 springboard off the top rope before his DDT I'd be impressed Actually I really want someone to start using this move as a transition and then have someone show it to Stone Cold
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Sep 13, 2015 18:06
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Shine posted:I remember when Raven first came to WWF, a bunch of Raven fans were talking about how awesome the Evenflow DDT was (or whatever it was called pre-Raven Effect), and they got really loving mad when people said it just looked like a normal DDT except people didn't kick out of it. It was awesome when he delivered it with a snap and flat-backed it, but then he got lazy/injured and started landing on his side. Also, as far as good Jake matches are concerned, he worked well with Ronnie Garvin and Dick Slater; there are some Jake/Garvin matches on Youtube if you're curious.
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Sep 13, 2015 19:12
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Every fan who complains about about old school wrestling should be forced to watch a bunch of Billy Robinson matches, Clockwork Orange style.
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Sep 13, 2015 19:31
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Fauxhawk Express posted:Every fan who complains about about old school wrestling should be forced to watch a bunch of Billy Robinson matches, Clockwork Orange style. Destroyer vs. Baba on loop
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Sep 13, 2015 19:36
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Spermgod posted:Destroyer vs. Baba on loop Or Lawler matches from his peak Memphis run. Whoever said Lawler was the best of the limited brawler archetypes in the ring was right, and his matches are still tremendously entertaining.
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Sep 13, 2015 19:43
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I'm smarky as gently caress and those matches are still awesome. It just takes character work and some decent pacing. It's like how a Kevin Owens resthold is usually 500x more interesting than Randy Orton resthold. (Sorry Randy, I'm going to keep using you as my boring example forever)
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Sep 13, 2015 20:29
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Orton is so weird, because everything he does is beautiful, he can keep a good pace, but it still doesn't matter because I have no idea who is going to be today. Legend killer, Snake, Angry psychopath who will kick your head in, whiny franchise player, goofy leaping splits baby-face, Orton lacks a consistent and interesting character, and without that, nothing really makes you want to watch him.
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Sep 13, 2015 20:43
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I will just say that Jake isn't bitter about the DDT being a transitional move these days, or it not being used much as a finish by anybody of note but him, because that just means that clearly he knows some secret that makes his DDT and his alone the deadliest. So in his opinion that makes his matches and his persona that much better because it's not the move that's a killer, it's the man. EDIT: Also I think Raven is pretty good and has had some really good matches but for him it was usually a question of motivation (so anything he did on TV in WCW was, at best, half effort) DynamiteKidd fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 21:14
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Stop flooding this thread with Roberts-Orton chat. Was there a new Pisscast this week? I'm suffering from withdrawals.
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Sep 13, 2015 21:43
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