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Azran posted:Yeah, I am pretty sure Demo is the worst perk right now but it shouldn't need anything more than number tweaking to make it better, unlike the Zerker's rework. One change I'd really LOVE to see would be Sirens not destroying C4 that's already on the floor. As of now, you can hold your fire with all the other weapons, but that (expensive) precious trap you planted? Well the game decided it's time for a Siren so *poof* it's gone. And you have to tolerate this poo poo for 15 loving levels. This is why against all my principles and my actual liking of the game I waddled to a perk leveling server like a little baby, just so I could play Demo kinda sensibly. Another thing that hit me is that welding is kinda and "eh" mechanic in this game. I don't ever feel encouraged to do so, because that time could be spent killing Zeds. And with the doors gone for good after their busted down, there's that "I might need that door later" factor. And again, Sirens destroying C4 on the ground doesn't even allow you to make traps with it, except for lots and lots of grenades. And the perk that lets you blow the doors upon busting them is going against the one perk you absolutely need to function as a demo past wave 3. Demo's great fun when the game allows you to, but man does that come late in the XP curve  Edit: So we can concur, there a lot of problems with Demo.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:08
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I don't mind being the minority here in really liking the demo pistol. Once you learn the "sweet spot" and get used to it firing wildly left/right, it actually consistently can take out 3-4 smaller zeds. The trick is not shooting "trains" of dudes, but of more spread out enemies. If they do happen to be traveling in a straight line then it's best to aim at the ground. If one fragment of the grenade goes off, they all go off. You can use this to your advantage quite a bit. The only disclaimer I can add here, is it took me getting level 15 for it to really shine. Caulk and burn felt the same way, to start. The FB/Demo are a bit of a glass cannon and need their dps to shine through.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:10
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So, basically, demo needs a scaling siren resistance perk or just a straight no-siren passive at baseline. Grenade resupply should be given back to support. And imo FB does not need a reload perk, Demo does. E: Offperk really makes the akimbo pistols, and medic weapons do a lot better as a real backup weapon.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:13
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The off-perk bonus might as well just say medic weapons because that's what everyone is going to pick up anyway. The main problem with medic weapons is that there's not enough ammo in them to really be a primary killing machine the way a Support or Firebug would have it. Thing is, demo has other toys to play with so he just needs something to fill in the gaps. The ammo count doesn't hurt that much. And if you can get past that, may as well fill gaps in your teammates' health, too.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:29
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Azran posted:2) It will take you many rounds to replace it. C4s are the next thing, they can't be stacked to detonate all at the same time because it means you lose damage, and once you use them you are back to the pistol. If you're not picking up C4 by round 3 at the latest, you hosed up somewhere. The stacking penalty is also hardly as devastating as it's made out to be since a) C4 one-shots everything but the big bads, b) you shouldn't need to solo big bads by yourself with nothing but C4, and c) you can leverage radiation at max level to solo the big bads anyway.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:57
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Remember after a certain perk level it makes more sense to sell your c4 and rebuy it, for the extra loot.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:04
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make the grenade launcher a tier 2 weapon alongside c4 and make the 6-shot grenade launcher the new t3
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Sep 17, 2015 19:08
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What if the Demo had Siren-resistant explosives by default and then instead had a perk that made Siren screams detonate your explosives with more damage than usual. Then you could use C4 as Siren landmines that they set off on themselves when they scream.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:41
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Metrohunter posted:make the grenade launcher a tier 2 weapon alongside c4 and make the 6-shot grenade launcher the new t3 ding ding ding Even though some people are saying the grenade pistol is a fine primary (I think it needs a rework) the demo class needs SOMETHING that isn't one-shot reload. My dream solution would be to have the grenade pistol have three barrels, like a tiny rotating grenade revolver. Make them do the same damage or something but I'm just not "satisfied" with demo ATM
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Sep 17, 2015 20:42
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Penpal posted:ding ding ding It's a secondary, though? Similar to the medic pistol, in that it has great utility. But yeah, replace the grenade launcher with the 6-shot version, and swap the price with the RPG while changing the weights somewhat on each item.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:50
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LuciferMorningstar posted:If you're not picking up C4 by round 3 at the latest, you hosed up somewhere. The stacking penalty is also hardly as devastating as it's made out to be since a) C4 one-shots everything but the big bads, b) you shouldn't need to solo big bads by yourself with nothing but C4, and c) you can leverage radiation at max level to solo the big bads anyway. The problem isn't the C4 or the grenade pistol it's, as said, the progression is cluster pistol->c4->GL->RPG7 In short you're stuck with the cluster pistol for way too long, which is only good for trash on a class who's stated job is "Anti-Tank Duty", when 2/3 of the big guys (Hans/Scrake) are very resistant to him. Though at least the FP makes it up by hilariously weak to explosions. In short the pistol is serviceable but you're stuck with it for way too long, especially at lower levels when you don't have the extra ammo for C4/instant detonatoin dynamite. Oh, also the problem is the fact that the RPG-7 doesn't fly through zeds that are too close like some sort of harpoon or railgun and THEN detonate at its minimum arming distance. This is a feature I never realized I wanted until someone in the thread suggested it. The RPG is your ultimate weapon as a demo, and costs 10 weight. It should have ALL the shiny features.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:50
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I agree with everyone on this page trying to re-phrase "just bring back KF1's demo, thanks"
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Sep 17, 2015 21:30
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RoadCrewWorker posted:I agree with everyone on this page trying to re-phrase "just bring back KF1's demo, thanks" agreed
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Sep 17, 2015 21:35
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Alkydere posted:Oh, also the problem is the fact that the RPG-7 doesn't fly through zeds that are too close like some sort of harpoon or railgun and THEN detonate at its minimum arming distance. This is a feature I never realized I wanted until someone in the thread suggested it. The RPG is your ultimate weapon as a demo, and costs 10 weight. It should have ALL the shiny features. Yeah, there doesn't seem to be much middle ground opinion on the 10 weight weapons in the KF2 pubbie fanbase (or this sort of thing in viddy games in general). If they are practical to use, it's OP even if you have to basically save all the ammo for the big guys. If it's not practical (like the Eviscerator) you get screamed at for so much as touching it, even if you land nothing but 360 noscope ricochet headshots that decapitate two sirens on the way to a scrake skull. Weapons that take up more than half your default weight capacity should be baller as hell. Especially at 10 weight so you can't shoehorn a SCAR or Pulv/Zwei alongside it without specifically going Support to do so. I still feel at least half the people saying the Microwave Gun is OP is because it is JUST light enough to bring a T3-T4 non firebug weapon along for the ride. Can't bring a a majority of the weapons in the game alongside a RPG/AA12/Evis though. 10 weight weapons can only bring T1s, and a few T2s along for the ride (Med SMG, Boomstick, C4).
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Sep 17, 2015 21:35
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I do think the RPG 7 is actually pretty loving baller as is, but I will agree that the perk weapon curve is harsh, and the class itself doesn't really get to do much until level 15. I remember liking Demo a lot more in KF1 once they added that M4 w/ Grenade Launcher for them, maybe something like that as a Tier 2 along side the C4 would help.
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Sep 17, 2015 21:41
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To be honest Demo's starter should just be him throwing quarter sticks of dynamite
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Sep 17, 2015 21:44
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A quick fix for the demo involves just a few changes. Explosives are unaffected by Sirens, under Perk Bonuses. Grenade supplier changed to "Secondary weapons start at full ammo" and grenade given back to Support Resupply skill. Siren resistance changed to "Sirens detonate c4, at full damage for multiple". Then Doors Traps should simply be "C4 attatched to a door will explode if the door is destroyed". Oh, also, extra explosives each 5 levels should apply to dynamite as well. So, you'd get 10 max.
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Sep 17, 2015 21:51
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Kazvall posted:A quick fix for the demo involves just a few changes. Explosives are unaffected by Sirens, under Perk Bonuses. Grenade supplier changed to "Secondary weapons start at full ammo" and grenade given back to Support Resupply skill. Siren resistance changed to "Sirens detonate c4, at full damage for multiple". Then Doors Traps should simply be "C4 attatched to a door will explode if the door is destroyed". Oh, also, extra explosives each 5 levels should apply to dynamite as well. So, you'd get 10 max. Switch T2 and T3 weapons along with those changes and I like it. I am still staunchly of the opinion that C4 should not come before a real primary. Maybe even a grenade revolver that shoots real grenades instead of C4, with C4 being a second T3.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:01
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C4 sucks until you get a lot of it. I honestly think making the penalty only take effect when another demo detonates c4 in the 3 second window, and reducing its cost to 600 would fix it outright.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:05
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It's pretty clear the c4 penalty was included so you couldn't take just a team of demos and make a domino line of them to cheese the game. It really does hurt the user though. It's not like we have a quick detonate button. 75% of the problem is having to switch to c4 to blow it up, or to have to keep it out in the first place while waiting for the right moment and not using a real gun.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:13
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I think it would help a lot if every Demo weapon could detonate C4 with their alt-fire. None of them use the alt-fire button currently.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:17
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Kazvall posted:It's pretty clear the c4 penalty was included so you couldn't take just a team of demos and make a domino line of them to cheese the game. It really does hurt the user though. It's not like we have a quick detonate button. 75% of the problem is having to switch to c4 to blow it up, or to have to keep it out in the first place while waiting for the right moment and not using a real gun. oh yeah, add quick detonate button to C4
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Sep 17, 2015 23:18
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gnome7 posted:I think it would help a lot if every Demo weapon could detonate C4 with their alt-fire. None of them use the alt-fire button currently. This would be pretty fabulous, yes. I agree that "Damage reduction is so we can't clown kite the boss to a roadrunner cartoon trap" as a concept is understandable, but the current implementation of so much as TWO C4 being basically worthless is overkill (making 3 of them Trash is more understandable) There is a big gap between one or two demos giggling as they instantly kill the boss, and Demos worrying they will gently caress eachother over for daring to go to the trouble of using one whole brick of C4 anywhere near eachother at any point.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:25
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gnome7 posted:I think it would help a lot if every Demo weapon could detonate C4 with their alt-fire. None of them use the alt-fire button currently. a button would be better imo since you could detonate even if you're using your pistol or an off-class weapon
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Sep 17, 2015 23:44
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Literal Nazi Furry posted:a button would be better imo since you could detonate even if you're using your pistol or an off-class weapon While I agree for 9mm, If your only Demo weapon is the C4, then you can pull out the detonator like a man instead of trying to det while shooting a microwave gun or Zweihander.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:50
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This will require substantial practical testing, but I'm coming to suspect that Demo might actually plausibly have some utility in the fight against Hans. Assume that the spreadsheet I'm working off of has data that is sufficiently accurate. If we have a max-level Demo, then his C4 will deal about 1,000 damage for a direct hit. The radiation damage from that, which seems to count as "toxic" damage, is 1.25 times as strong and applies itself once per second for eight seconds, so 1,250 damage per second for eight seconds, for a total of 10,000 damage. Given that information, it becomes obvious why radiation damage is so good at absolutely destroying practically everything it touches. From what I can see, the only thing that stands a chance of surviving that, beyond Hans, is a six-man HoE Pound with 8,137 health. If the Pound is 50% resistant to toxic damage as the spreadsheet claims, then a direct explosion plus a full dose of radiation would leave the aforementioned Pound with 1,637 health (a 5-man HoE Pound would probably survive, but with hardly any health to speak of). This isn't relevant to Hans, of course, but it should show that the radiation skill is incredibly powerful. Hans, now, appears to be 50% resistant to both explosive damage and toxic damage. Thus, the damage from a C4 explosion plus its radiation damage is limited to 5,500. I loaded a test map on HoE and spawned Hans. He should have 5,425 health in this scenario. I threw a brick of C4 on him, triggered Zed Time, and detonated the C4. After a small period of time, Hans died. Thus, I feel fairly confident saying that the overall damage from such an explosion can hit at least 5,500, if not perhaps more. The first question, then, is this: Can Zed Time reliably be triggered during the fight against Hans? I know that it can be triggered since a) I've seen it happen, and b) Zeds do start spawning at a point during that fight, so it makes sense that it can be triggered. The real issue is whether or not you can get that Zed Time at least once, if not more that once, per Hans heal phase. If we assume that you can get an average of one Zed Time per heal phase, except for the first phase when there are no Zeds, then you've got a reliable 5,500 damage against Hans. Does that matter? I don't have a good answer for that particular question. For six man matches, Hans has 22,443 health on Suicidal, and 25,768 health on HoE. Given that information, 5,500 damage seems somewhat insubstantial. However, it's 5,500 damage that you put in very little effort to obtain. For comparison, a mag of AA-12 from a 25 Support, assuming all pellets connect, should deal 4,375 damage. I'm not terribly confident about the math on this, but the Microwave gun seems like it might do as much as 8,250 damage per mag, assuming you put the full beam into Hans. I'm not making any firm claims at this point, but it's probably worth doing some experimenting with approaches to quickly killing Hans. From a theoretical perspective, it looks like there are a few approaches that could be really, really good.
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Sep 18, 2015 03:51
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Now I'm curious, how much damage a RPG does compared to a C4 number wise? An RPG would be much easier to use during zed time than a C4, (unless C4 sticks to hans through phases and his own explosions).
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Sep 18, 2015 03:59
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Without looking at the doc I would say c4 does double or even triple damage.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:06
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LuciferMorningstar posted:This will require substantial practical testing, but I'm coming to suspect that Demo might actually plausibly have some utility in the fight against Hans. Assume that the spreadsheet I'm working off of has data that is sufficiently accurate. If we have a max-level Demo, then his C4 will deal about 1,000 damage for a direct hit. The radiation damage from that, which seems to count as "toxic" damage, is 1.25 times as strong and applies itself once per second for eight seconds, so 1,250 damage per second for eight seconds, for a total of 10,000 damage. Given that information, it becomes obvious why radiation damage is so good at absolutely destroying practically everything it touches. From what I can see, the only thing that stands a chance of surviving that, beyond Hans, is a six-man HoE Pound with 8,137 health. If the Pound is 50% resistant to toxic damage as the spreadsheet claims, then a direct explosion plus a full dose of radiation would leave the aforementioned Pound with 1,637 health (a 5-man HoE Pound would probably survive, but with hardly any health to speak of). This isn't relevant to Hans, of course, but it should show that the radiation skill is incredibly powerful. lol get a load of this nerd
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Sep 18, 2015 04:12
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Broose posted:Now I'm curious, how much damage a RPG does compared to a C4 number wise? An RPG would be much easier to use during zed time than a C4, (unless C4 sticks to hans through phases and his own explosions). No idea myself but anecdotally I've been playing some solo HoE to level up and get some practice in and I've found that off-perk 2 C4 kills a Fleshpound as long as they're detonated outside of the cooldown period and close/on the FP. As a level 20 demo on 6-player Suicidal with the On-perk skill it takes about 3 direct RPG hits to kill a Fleshpound. I know the Suicidal FP is going to have more health because of scaling but with the perk bonuses applied there I'd definitely say the C4 does more damage. It's definitely hard to say because the M79, RPG, and C4 all seem to exceed the damage bar's threshold in the trader menu because they're all maxed.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:14
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Kazvall posted:I don't mind being the minority here in really liking the demo pistol. Once you learn the "sweet spot" and get used to it firing wildly left/right, it actually consistently can take out 3-4 smaller zeds. The trick is not shooting "trains" of dudes, but of more spread out enemies. If they do happen to be traveling in a straight line then it's best to aim at the ground. If one fragment of the grenade goes off, they all go off. You can use this to your advantage quite a bit. The only disclaimer I can add here, is it took me getting level 15 for it to really shine. Caulk and burn felt the same way, to start. The FB/Demo are a bit of a glass cannon and need their dps to shine through. The demo pistol isn't bad at all for the beginning waves. I like it a lot and think it's a pretty good starter weapon. It's useless against the big guys but the little guys get wrecked by it if you shoot the ground instead of their bodies. The problem I have with Demolitions at the moment is how little ammo they get. I'm constantly begging for money because I've spent all mine on ammo refills since I had to use every bullet for the last wave. On top of that, once I get the Rocket Launcher I become useful but the invisible fuckers always stand in front of me and I end up wasting a rocket on them. It would be so much better if there was some sort of penetration for rockets so I wouldn't end up wasting what little ammo I have on fuckers that step in my way right after I shoot it.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:20
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Broose posted:Now I'm curious, how much damage a RPG does compared to a C4 number wise? An RPG would be much easier to use during zed time than a C4, (unless C4 sticks to hans through phases and his own explosions). RPG does around 900 damage at level 25. C4 is the highest-damage weapon a Demo has access to. The C4 does stick to Hans and stays put though, even through the shield. That all said, a test run suggests this approach is really, really bad to the extent that it depends way too heavily on getting Zed Time when you need it. A Demo can pack a Microwave or an AA12 alongside C4, though, so the C4 could just be a bonus. Definitely not something I would say that can be relied upon in any capacity. E: Kazvall posted:Without looking at the doc I would say c4 does double or even triple damage. Doc is here for interest parties. Abandoned Toaster posted:No idea myself but anecdotally I've been playing some solo HoE to level up and get some practice in and I've found that off-perk 2 C4 kills a Fleshpound as long as they're detonated outside of the cooldown period and close/on the FP. Max-level Demo seems to be able to one-shot one-player HoE Pounds if the charge gets placed on the chest, basically on the power core. Sticking it to the head doesn't have the same effect. Getting it on that core absolutely wastes them, though. Not really sure why. It's not the outcome I'd expect. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 04:29
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Max-level Demo seems to be able to one-shot one-player HoE Pounds if the charge gets placed on the chest, basically on the power core. Sticking it to the head doesn't have the same effect. Getting it on that core absolutely wastes them, though. Not really sure why. It's not the outcome I'd expect. The core is a weak spot for FPs, just like it is with Hans. When FPs charge they're not really protecting their head, it's their core. I'm guessing the C4 or explosion doesn't do bonus headshot damage or enough to their head?
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Sep 18, 2015 07:23
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Just got my first Suicidal win on Extraction point with a pub team. Man, people play so much smarter at this level. That being said I held my own on the 8th wave until 5 scrakes at one time spawned. I was the 2nd to the last one down but I was commando and I didnt have a chance in hell against one Scrake let alone 5... Luckily the last was a Beserker who knew his biz. we survived and then i stupidly gave away all my money for the 9th wave forgetting I only had a loving starter rifle. Still managed to survive with that a pistol. only 3 of us did. The Hans fight was almost easy. It was bizarre. The top part of of the escalators. The zerks tank him. The medics healed and my commando just sat on the opposite rail far away plinking his core with my SCAR. He went down stupid easy. This game really clicks when you have smart players.
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Sep 18, 2015 07:47
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I hope sharpshooter or gunslinger gets some perk that stops their bullets ricocheting off parts of zeds and do damage instead. I hate it when I do my best to headshot a siren coming in from the distance only to see all the tracers go bouncing off somewhere into the distance with a clang!
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Sep 18, 2015 10:01
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Give them a perk that makes ricochets bounce off in such a way that it hits another enemy Call it pinball wizard. Nalesh fucked around with this message at 10:09 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 10:07
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I might be the only person who thinks this but man it takes ages to level stuff up in this game. I know it's a lot faster than KF1 but still. 
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Sep 18, 2015 13:04
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Nalesh posted:Give them a perk that makes ricochets bounce off in such a way that it hits another enemy That would actually be a hilarious perk for the Gunslinger.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:07
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Flipswitch posted:I might be the only person who thinks this but man it takes ages to level stuff up in this game. I know it's a lot faster than KF1 but still. Gotta move up to harder difficulties And yeah it's like 100000x faster then KF1, I'd say that if you play your first 2-3 matches on normal, then move to Hard the level curve is actually pretty good up till lvls 14-15. Then it's Suicidal and HoE time. QwertySanchez posted:I hope sharpshooter or gunslinger gets some perk that stops their bullets ricocheting off parts of zeds and do damage instead. I hate it when I do my best to headshot a siren coming in from the distance only to see all the tracers go bouncing off somewhere into the distance with a clang! Sharpshooter should get a perk that negates screen shake for easier headshot poppin even in the heat of the fight.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:29
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Kazvall posted:I think every class should have some baseline class "ability" like the zerk, i.e. not grabbed by clots. Demo should just say "explosives not affected by the siren". Absolutely. It's that and not starting at level 0 would massively help all the classes play better from the start. It wouldn't even be that hard to find special stuff for every class.
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Sep 18, 2015 14:35
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