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Snak posted:Diamonds and Rust is great, but why is that I think he's making a joke about how big of a plot element both diamonds and rust are in the game.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:10
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Snak posted:Diamonds and Rust is great, but why is that Diamond dogs! Rust making parasites! Bob Dylan's booty call! ITS ALL THERE MAN im just kidding around
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Sep 18, 2015 21:10
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TheHoosier posted:Im on the boat that 1 and 3 are the best MGS games storywise because there's a defined beginning and end. The stories are self-contained and do well to create just enough vagueness to keep you interested. I wanted to know more after those games. The others feel like a madman's stream of consciousness where at the end I just sit there with an eyebrow raised. Especially 4. At least 5 has somewhat of a lead-in to MG1. It just occurred to me that 1 and 3 are also the only games in the series where Kojima didn't feel the need to explain everything supernatural with some kind of nanomachines/parasites/midichlorians. Awesome stuff just happens, Bond-girls do motorcycle tricks, people shoot bees out of their asses, one guy has a living tattoo, all this without hours of exposition. Then he went all Lucas in all the other games. Oh, and Peace Walker didn't have that either. Just people talking about birds or dinosaurs or talking cats.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:19
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Terminally Bored posted:It just occurred to me that 1 and 3 are also the only games in the series where Kojima didn't feel the need to explain everything supernatural with some kind of nanomachines/parasites/midichlorians. Awesome stuff just happens, Bond-girls do motorcycle tricks, people shoot bees out of their asses, one guy has a living tattoo, all this without hours of exposition. Then he went all Lucas in all the other games. People complained non-stop about the fact that the Cobras were not explained. Even reviews talked about how they were nonsensical and unexplained. It was considered a major negative of the game near release. It's probably the reason that The End has a retroactive explanation in MGSV even.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:29
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That's crazy. loving infodump generation.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:33
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loving people who want some background on people in stories. gently caress them.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:34
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End isn't even an emotion!
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Sep 18, 2015 21:35
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Terminally Bored posted:It just occurred to me that 1 and 3 are also the only games in the series where Kojima didn't feel the need to explain everything supernatural with some kind of nanomachines/parasites/midichlorians. Awesome stuff just happens, Bond-girls do motorcycle tricks, people shoot bees out of their asses, one guy has a living tattoo, all this without hours of exposition. Then he went all Lucas in all the other games. I think it's important to make a distinction here. If you're saying that 1 and 3 are the least weird Metal Gears, then you are one of these crazy people who thinks that Metal Gear Rising is "too over the top" and "doesn't fit" into the canon of the series. If you think the narrative in 2 and 4 are too hamfisted about pretty much everything, including the explanations for the crazy comic book poo poo, then you... are correct. Come to think of it, MGSV's "The Truth" does a light version of the meta thing without going "SEE, THIS IS WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT" for the last 2 hours of the game. Say what you will about Kojima, but he definitely has evolved as a storyteller over the course of the series, even if the content of the story itself is still cuckoo
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Sep 18, 2015 21:35
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ImpAtom posted:People complained non-stop about the fact that the Cobras were not explained. Even reviews talked about how they were nonsensical and unexplained. It was considered a major negative of the game near release. It's probably the reason that The End has a retroactive explanation in MGSV even. For real?! I didn't realize that. People don't have any loving imagination. I thought they were explained in the MGS4 database and third-party poo poo like guides? The Pain bonded with the hornets through numerous stings/capturing the queen, The Fear had a bunch of surgery and wears prototype stealth camo (which is imperfect, you can still see him), The End I guess could be parasites, The Fury is a PTSD'd lunatic with a flamethrower, and the Boss judos the gently caress out of you. People slobbering over an exact explanation is the reason we get nonsensical exposition... Edit: Forgot the Sorrow. Still rules. TheHoosier fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 21:36
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Literally the only COBRA that is 100% explained in this game is The End, and that's understandable because he has the most "out-there" power set. I mean except for The Fury's flaming skull mode. That's still really weird.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:37
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Funky Valentine posted:loving people who want some background on people in stories. gently caress them. This but unironically. Especially if the background is as well-written and delivered as that on B&B unit post-boss codecs. Fifteen minutes of the same story told four times.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:38
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A lot of people (in the US especially, for some reason) are incredibly resistant to the concept of magical realism and simply cannot accept that everything in a piece of fiction doesn't have some nice, neat, explanation that can be cataloged and footnoted on wikipedia. Then when the explanations invariably end up being dumb and disappointing (because how could they not?), those people whine even more.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:39
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OnimaruXLR posted:I think it's important to make a distinction here. If you're saying that 1 and 3 are the least weird Metal Gears, then you are one of these crazy people who thinks that Metal Gear Rising is "too over the top" and "doesn't fit" into the canon of the series. Nah, I love MGR. And I love how it embraced the silliest aspects of all Metal Gear stories to deliver one that's even sillier and over the top.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:39
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The Fury went to space. He looked at the Earth, and that REALLY PISSED HIM OFF.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:40
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OnimaruXLR posted:I think it's important to make a distinction here. If you're saying that 1 and 3 are the least weird Metal Gears, then you are one of these crazy people who thinks that Metal Gear Rising is "too over the top" and "doesn't fit" into the canon of the series. I actually loved Rising. It felt like it's own thing and was pretty satisfying. I don't remember having an issue with it story-wise. I'll be replaying it so I guess we'll see but I remember really liking it.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:40
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In It For The Tank posted:End isn't even an emotion! Think back to how you felt when The Return of The King was done and somehow stretched out another 45 minutes.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:41
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:A lot of people (in the US especially, for some reason) are incredibly resistant to the concept of magical realism and simply cannot accept that everything in a piece of fiction doesn't have some nice, neat, explanation that can be cataloged and footnoted on wikipedia. Then when the explanations invariably end up being dumb and disappointing (because how could they not?), those people whine even more. Many people in general just have no imagination. It's why I think the only thing that really needs to be explained is what happened to Saehaelantropus. We can kind of infer what happens to everyone else. But it seems like many people want everything to be spelled out on screen. I thought the same thing about Prometheus in how a lot of answers people complained about not getting were right there in the movie.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:49
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CrashCat posted:We are not your kind of people. wont be cast as demons, creatures you despise we are extraordinary people. we are
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Sep 18, 2015 21:50
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TheHoosier posted:For real?! I didn't realize that. People don't have any loving imagination. I thought they were explained in the MGS4 database and third-party poo poo like guides? The Pain bonded with the hornets through numerous stings/capturing the queen, The Fear had a bunch of surgery and wears prototype stealth camo (which is imperfect, you can still see him), The End I guess could be parasites, The Fury is a PTSD'd lunatic with a flamethrower, and the Boss judos the gently caress out of you. A lot of that stuff came afterwards and was probably a response to those complaints. Kojima tends to be kind of reactionary in his response to complaints. I can't say it's a good thing but if there's a lot of objections to something he tends to try to go different directions in his next game. MGS3 is really well-regarded (for good reason) but I recall a lot of "it didn't explain anything" and "it felt pointless" stuff which probably partially contribute to MGS4 being EXPLAIN EVERYTHING. I think it's good Kojima adapts to people's complaints but he tends to overdo it, giving us stuff that is at best kinda silly (see: everything done with Raiden and Raikov) and at worst actively aggravating. Edit: Even The Sorrow was probably a retroactive "people whined about Liquid possessing Ocelot" explanation. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 21:59
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ImpAtom posted:A lot of that stuff came afterwards and was probably a response to those complaints. Yeah you're right. I guess in my rant I should have made a distinction between "simple explanation" and "grandiose over-explanation that muddles more than it answers". Regardless, I do really enjoy the craziness of the series. Especially when Snake is depicted as being deadpan against it. Like in 3: The Pain literally conjures an armor of hornets and fires bullet bees from his mouth. Snake's never like "WHAT THE gently caress THIS GUY CONTROLS BEES MAJOR WHAT IN GREEN HELL" it's always just "Hmm bees." Makes me laugh.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:11
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Hilarious that MGS4 of all things is responsible for PW/MGSV's brilliant openish world bent and one of the best procedurally generated funboxes with no story really needed.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:12
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I think the absurd silliness of the series really does work in its favor. I really prefer things that are just willing to be absurd even if it is odd. It's better than trying to be serious and ending up absurd.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:13
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:A lot of people (in the US especially, for some reason) are incredibly resistant to the concept of magical realism and simply cannot accept that everything in a piece of fiction doesn't have some nice, neat, explanation that can be cataloged and footnoted on wikipedia. Then when the explanations invariably end up being dumb and disappointing (because how could they not?), those people whine even more. It's the reason we can't have more good horror movies in the US where scary stuff just happens to regular people with no rhyme or reason and you never find out why. Instead it's "let's have some dialogue here about how a ghost could learn to use a computer." I actually feels like it's less work for me because I can say "some things just happen" and move on instead of worrying about it.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:17
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blackguy32 posted:Many people in general just have no imagination. It's why I think the only thing that really needs to be explained is what happened to Saehaelantropus. We can kind of infer what happens to everyone else. But it seems like many people want everything to be spelled out on screen. I find that on the internet, and nerdier circles in particular, nothing exists outside the plot. Everything has to act as a piece to some ultimate puzzle, and if the puzzle isn't solved by the end then the story failed. If I was one of those people then MGS would infuriate me, because Kojima clearly doesn't care about canon, continuity, or even coherence most of the time. I think he starts with themes, settings, metaphors he wants to explore and just sort of strings it together to retrofit it to the MGS storyline.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:23
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Honestly, despite Kojima's film-director aspirations, it's pretty clear that gameplay has always been the primary focus of MGS games. It's almost like this took pressure off the story "being serious" and allowed it to be so wacky. Like, yeah the themes are a big thing, but the literal plot? It's all rationalizations to keep going on sneaking missions and fighting metal gear. it's why there's a giant robot fight in every metal gear solid game. Because that's part of the game. Every plot is written to accommodate this.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:31
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Hilarious that MGS4 of all things is responsible for PW/MGSV's brilliant openish world bent and one of the best procedurally generated funboxes with no story really needed. Seriously. I'm annoyed at how wishy-washy the plot in MGSV is, but I'm totally just overlooking it because I've not that this much fun just loving around in a sandbox since Saint's Row 2.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:36
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Hijo Del Helmsley posted:Seriously. I'm annoyed at how wishy-washy the plot in MGSV is, but I'm totally just overlooking it because I've not that this much fun just loving around in a sandbox since Saint's Row 2. Especially nutty when you think about MGS1 and how essential the story and gameplay are in tandem in a really groundbreaking way. I wish they went further with the "each mission is a tv ep" thing (like even to the point of wanting actual mini-mgs4's in the mains and letting side-ops be side-ops) , but I also wish they would figure out how to not spoil poo poo with the cast listing at the front.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:45
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ImpAtom posted:People complained non-stop about the fact that the Cobras were not explained. Even reviews talked about how they were nonsensical and unexplained. It was considered a major negative of the game near release. It's probably the reason that The End has a retroactive explanation in MGSV even. Video game journalists failed to grasp the heavy-handed subtext that each Cobra member simply represented an emotion that Big Boss had to suppress in order to become the ultimate soldier? Color me shocked!
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Sep 18, 2015 22:50
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Castor Poe posted:Video game journalists failed to grasp the heavy-handed subtext that each Cobra member simply represented an emotion that Big Boss had to suppress in order to become the ultimate soldier? Color me shocked! Except for the End, I don't know what kind of emotion that is. cp91886 posted:
I agree. I think people fall over themselves to try to follow canon when I think Kojima's main focus is to present a theme and stick to it. I think he did it a lot better with MGS 2 and 5 than any of his other games.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:54
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blackguy32 posted:Except for the End, I don't know what kind of emotion that is. Oblivion. The part of you that just wants to give up and die, or sleep.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:58
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blackguy32 posted:Except for the End, I don't know what kind of emotion that is. I think it's hopelessness, or nihilism. I'm guessing if you're a lifetime soldier like these guys your brain just glazes over and you welcome defeat whenever it comes.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:59
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The End is clearly about "end of life" feelings. While the End embodies a slow decline, like dying of sickness or old age, he is a sniper, also representing sudden and unexpected death. The End is how people feel about death. Not sure there's a name for that emotion, since it's really a complex emotion made up of other emotions.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:02
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Snak posted:The End is clearly about "end of life" feelings. While the End embodies a slow decline, like dying of sickness or old age, he is a sniper, also representing sudden and unexpected death. The End is how people feel about death. Not sure there's a name for that emotion, since it's really a complex emotion made up of other emotions. I read somewhere his name was going to be The Doom but they didn't want confusion with Doom 3 coming out.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:04
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blackguy32 posted:Except for the End, I don't know what kind of emotion that is. I've always assumed that his name was a mistranslation, same with The Pain. Snak posted:The End is clearly about "end of life" feelings. While the End embodies a slow decline, like dying of sickness or old age, he is a sniper, also representing sudden and unexpected death. The End is how people feel about death. Not sure there's a name for that emotion, since it's really a complex emotion made up of other emotions. This is super good.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:12
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Snak posted:The End is clearly about "end of life" feelings. While the End embodies a slow decline, like dying of sickness or old age, he is a sniper, also representing sudden and unexpected death. The End is how people feel about death. Not sure there's a name for that emotion, since it's really a complex emotion made up of other emotions. There isn't because death can entail a wide range of emotions and people take it differently. But it is probably better to chalk it up to language (hello MGS5) and how a lot of meaning can be lost in translation.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:16
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It's funny because all his powers revolve around life (sniping not included). But there's nothing more natural to life than life's end.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:18
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ImpAtom posted:The only way it could be more obvious is if Eli turned to look at him and went "You're a Psycho, Man! Tis true!" Hey man this is metal gear. It could turn out that the kid is actually a different person but one day happened along pyscho mantis and got imprisoned within his mind because he ate part of his curly fro.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:19
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Man, I am so glad that Quiet did not turn out to be Chico. That was the dumbest speculation prior to release and transsexualism is the last thing MGS needed to cover. It was kind of strange how Chico's death was basically a footnote in an early tape. "Oh yeah, Chico died in the helicopter crash. That sucked." It was also jarring to hear Ocelot speak of interrogation as something that needs to be as short as possible because the longer it goes on the greater the physical and mental risk to the prisoner. I thought Ocelot detested interrogation at first, but came around to the idea by watching Volgin work. Volgin obviously was more into torture than interrogation and like it just for the sake of torturing, however I assumed Ocelot just jumped right into physically torturing people instead of having a psychological battle like you see him do in TPP. I wonder what changes his stance between TPP and MGS1?
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Sep 18, 2015 23:31
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Shoren posted:Man, I am so glad that Quiet did not turn out to be Chico. That was the dumbest speculation prior to release and transsexualism is the last thing MGS needed to cover. It's Ocelot having two factors. One is interrogation for information and one is interrogation because he has a torture boner. In the case of MGSV he legitimately wants to get information. in MGS1 and MGS2 he's pretty much in it for kicks. Donald Anderson he straight-up murdered and pretended it was an accident.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:37
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Would've been nice to see him slap Huey around a bit as a means of showing that he isn't opposed to using force. He had a very good reason to kill Donald Anderson, though. Speaking of Huey, I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was trying to help MSF with the nuclear inspection by making them "legit" in the world's eyes, but knowing after the fact that everything he did was to cut a deal with Cipher makes him the most worthless piece of poo poo in the series. It's funny that he truly believed all the poo poo he was spewing because he kept saying it after the truth serum was administered.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:46
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